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Scriptures calvinists must deal with...
- Thread starter Alive in Christ
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This would have fit in well with the thread I started for compatibilists that NONE participated in. God has set eternity in the hearts of all men (Ecc. 3:11). He has put the desire to live forever in the hearts of all men. If God's desire has been put into man's heart, how can there be a greater desire than what God has set in your heart, and according to the principle of compatibilism, how can man choose contrary to such a desire?
All men want to live forever - none want to die. I don't see an issue with that. However, not everyone will bow their knee to Christ because their sinful hearts want to bow to themselves instead. It has nothing to do with eternity because they still crave eternity. They just don't crave God.
How does man have any say in who they bow their knee to, I thought God was sovereign and not man?
Why would God set the craving for eternal life into the heart of the reprobate that He did not elect, nor could they ever receive?
God says that he is not willing that any would perish, yet Jesus said few are them that find narrow row, most follow the broad road tomdestruction...
Bible also said that jesus died to atone for the sins of the "many", not the "all"
This there is a General/Specific will of God here...
God does wnat all to be saved in the sense he loves all peoples, and gave his Son jesus as their Propiation, but that ONLY those he elects/chosses actually are the saved of God...
And have to under that isreal and the Church both show us that God DOES have a Covenant people he has chosen out from among all in the earth, so there is a 'faithful remnant" according to His plans and callings
Calvinists see this as being due His electing them out of unsaved Humanity, Arninions see this due to them responding by their own faith/free will, NONE see another chance other than right here and now!
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Why does God do anything? I believe that we have not been revealed everything in God's heart nor the complete answers to His purposes.
So by this view, one would have to either believe in Universalism, all will one day "make it", or else no eternal Hell, just "wiped out?"
That being the Gospel of the Cross, all those God has purchased by the blood of Christ, elected in his Son, will be to His praise and glory?
other way around my friend...
jesus died in order to purchase back/reddem/secure a "peculiar" people back to God...
he died as the sin bearer/propiation for entire World, but ONLY those God has given to Jesus, drawn by Holy Spirit, actuall receive the benfit of the Cross...
or are you saying that god calls/draws/gives to jesus, ALL people, IF Jesus died for ALL Whole World?
Wouldn't that be Universalism?
AIC,
No contradictions.....
If everyone alive today were to repent and believe[on God's terms]....they would not be rejected.
The all speaks to all kinds of men...jew,gentile,rich, poor,young ,old
Adams sinful rebellion has damned millions to hell. God is purely Holy and has to justly punish all sin. All died in Adam...when God told him dying thou shall surely die...he meant it!
Can I put it more clearly for you???? When God told the Israelites to kill the amalekites.....how was this a missionary endeavour??
Where does your view fit in this supposed desire to save everyone,instead of those He planned to save?
but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling{did he somehow give these people a special secret message of His love before they were slain?]
Your theology has to account for all the verses in the bible, not just verses that say...all, or world, or everyman,
AIC...once again, I am saying that God saves everyone He has planned to save. The scriptures do not teach that God wants to save everyone.
It is ONLY mercy that anyone gets saved.
No contradictions.....
God's holy love is only found in His Son. When we offer the cross to the unsaved....the love is only in the Son. The scripture does not present the love of God as outside of Jesus and His Kingdom. rom5 rom8
If everyone alive today were to repent and believe[on God's terms]....they would not be rejected.
The all speaks to all kinds of men...jew,gentile,rich, poor,young ,old
Adams sinful rebellion has damned millions to hell. God is purely Holy and has to justly punish all sin. All died in Adam...when God told him dying thou shall surely die...he meant it!
yes he does....
AIC....be careful that you do not invent your own God who does what you want him to do! The God of the bible is all powerful and has declared He is going to save each person he has planned to save, not one of them is lost. One problem here is your false idea that God wants to save each person who ever lived.
Can I put it more clearly for you???? When God told the Israelites to kill the amalekites.....how was this a missionary endeavour??
Where does your view fit in this supposed desire to save everyone,instead of those He planned to save?
AIC......is this your God? Is this the God of jn 3:16?
but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling{did he somehow give these people a special secret message of His love before they were slain?]
Your theology has to account for all the verses in the bible, not just verses that say...all, or world, or everyman,
AIC...once again, I am saying that God saves everyone He has planned to save. The scriptures do not teach that God wants to save everyone.
It is ONLY mercy that anyone gets saved.
From among all condemned sinners.....he elected a multitude to die for and redeem. Again he did not have to save any....but for His own good pleasure He by His grace saves many. No more ,or no less than He has purposed, by His Decree.
Calvinism as I have said three times in this post says God accomplishes redemption for all He intends. That is omnipotence..not impotence...like your view would indicate,ie he wants to save but cannot, his will does not get done, he wishes but gets frustrated, he has to go to plan b ,etc
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Quote:
great verse....first question;
Is the whole world going to be saved? Iron
Of course not. Some will choose to reject. AIC
IMHO It is not that some will choose to reject. All men through all ages have rejected. I do not think Paul wrote this about man's attitude prior to the death and resurrection of Jesus. I believe it to be man's attitude then and now.
What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
The reason for wanting free will is man does not trust God to save him, therefore he wants to be able to choose God.
This is what God told Abraham. That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; (And this is how it will come about) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
That is a lot I mean a really, really whole lot of humans. In all likely hood a great majority. As it is stated he wants all men to be saved.
Now let's see where free will gets us.
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (More) And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? (He went away sorrowful.) And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
(Free will?) When his disciples heard [it], they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? (Not just amazed but exceedingly amazed.)
(What did Jesus tell them?)
But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore.
(I call this the faithfulness of God through the faith of Jesus Christ.)
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
great verse....first question;
Is the whole world going to be saved? Iron
Of course not. Some will choose to reject. AIC
IMHO It is not that some will choose to reject. All men through all ages have rejected. I do not think Paul wrote this about man's attitude prior to the death and resurrection of Jesus. I believe it to be man's attitude then and now.
What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
The reason for wanting free will is man does not trust God to save him, therefore he wants to be able to choose God.
This is what God told Abraham. That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; (And this is how it will come about) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
That is a lot I mean a really, really whole lot of humans. In all likely hood a great majority. As it is stated he wants all men to be saved.
Now let's see where free will gets us.
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (More) And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? (He went away sorrowful.) And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
(Free will?) When his disciples heard [it], they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? (Not just amazed but exceedingly amazed.)
(What did Jesus tell them?)
But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore.
(I call this the faithfulness of God through the faith of Jesus Christ.)
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
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Christ being the propitiation for our sins, and not only ours, but the whole world's does not equate to universalism. Salvation sans faith in Christ is not possible. If Christ's death simply for the "elect" meant they are saved, faith is not only rendered moot, but is pointless.
Surely there must be a reason, especially in a systematic theology. It is not a mystery, Scripture tells us why...it points to the source of life, along with nature, and God's law written instinctively on man's heart. God has given all mankind this and has place all of us in the exact location in the planet and place in time to seek Him. That's God acting first...God drawing us to Him to seek Him that we might "...perhaps reach out and find Him although He is not far from each one of us."
You also did not answer why desire = decree?
Alive in Christ
New Member
David Lamb...
You then posted these scriptures...
They are not of His sheep because having heard, they choose to reject.
God draws everyone at various times and in different ways. The one being drawn has a choice to make.
That referes to all who recieve Christ.
Thats the gospel. Justification by faith alone.
We have no trouble at all understanding those passages. I just explained them. Probably not as good as others, but those are not problematic.
AiC
You then posted these scriptures...
They are not of His sheep because having heard, they choose to reject.
God draws everyone at various times and in different ways. The one being drawn has a choice to make.
That referes to all who recieve Christ.
Thats the gospel. Justification by faith alone.
We have no trouble at all understanding those passages. I just explained them. Probably not as good as others, but those are not problematic.
AiC
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Alive in Christ
New Member
I dont see it that way at all. I see it as God giving every human being who comes into the world the same choice of choosing Gods provision, or turning it down.
It goes all the way back to the old covenant times...
And continues under the new covenant...
(needless to say, there are multitudes more than just those two)
AiC
Alive in Christ
New Member
Grasshopper...
Ha ha! :laugh:
Trust me, I am no universalist.
There is a heaven and there is a hell. And unfortunetly, people will choose the latter.
AiC
Ha ha! :laugh:
Trust me, I am no universalist.
There is a heaven and there is a hell. And unfortunetly, people will choose the latter.
AiC
Alive in Christ
New Member
Grasshopper....
And he says this as I am on here refuting Calvinism. :laugh:
God tells us in the scriptures that He gives "Light" (true spiritual revelation) to every person who come into the world. So even those who never hear the gosple in their lifetime are without excuse.
John 1: 8-9...
I like to propagate the "justification by faith alone" quote, and I also appreciate that ministries work in refuting Catholicism
AiC
And he says this as I am on here refuting Calvinism. :laugh:
God tells us in the scriptures that He gives "Light" (true spiritual revelation) to every person who come into the world. So even those who never hear the gosple in their lifetime are without excuse.
John 1: 8-9...
I like to propagate the "justification by faith alone" quote, and I also appreciate that ministries work in refuting Catholicism
AiC
psalms109:31
Active Member
Total depravity
Most universalist I heard from believe in total depravity. Man can't do anything to acheive salvation. Since God wants all men to be saved He will save all mankind. Save them for an aion(age). They take away the God given ability through His word to believe and be saved or not and be condemned.
The desire of God is given so we will go out and tell, but we know that it isn't His want that will be fulfilled but His will that those who trust (believe) in His Son will be saved and those who do not will be condemned and this will be fulfilled.
This faith from God through Jesus will be seen by what we do.
Most universalist I heard from believe in total depravity. Man can't do anything to acheive salvation. Since God wants all men to be saved He will save all mankind. Save them for an aion(age). They take away the God given ability through His word to believe and be saved or not and be condemned.
The desire of God is given so we will go out and tell, but we know that it isn't His want that will be fulfilled but His will that those who trust (believe) in His Son will be saved and those who do not will be condemned and this will be fulfilled.
This faith from God through Jesus will be seen by what we do.
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But the verse says ""But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you." not "Because you do not believe, you are not of my sheep". The verse clearly says that they do not believe BECAUSE they are not of His sheep.
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