Present Tense in John 5 Counters Futurist Argument

[asterisktom]

But you never answered my question about a temple in Heaven until now.

So you don't believe the temple in Heaven is physical? Is heaven itself physical? Are we all floating around as spirits in a spiritual heaven? Jesus went to prepare a spiritual place? You don't believe in a physical resurrection? That's what this sounds like.

Pay attention. I said "no historical, external support." Do you know the difference between "external" and "internal" in Biblical scholarship?

"Pay attention" I laughed out loud when I read this. Actually I just sighed. Yes, I know the difference. And?

I never answered the question about the temple in heaven because:
1. It was not the issue I was dealing with. Rather, the desecration of it was.
2. I assumed you knew that Preterists do believe in it. At least a spiritual one. You being so knowledgeable and all I didn't bother to go over this.

No, heaven is not physical. It is spiritual. We are primarily spiritual beings who right now also have physical bodies.

Do a study in Scripture, John. Put away all your goofy man's wisdom and just do a careful study of the word "spiritual" and how it is used in the Bible. You may be surprised.

 

[revmwc]

The issue here is not the Jews' willingness to build a temple. It is the impossibility of there ever again being an abomination in that temple. The "abomination that causes desolation" is a concept no longer possible on this Earth. To "desolate", in this sense, is to desecrate. To is desecrate, acc. to Webster's, to "violate the sanctity" of something. No building anywhere has that special sanctity anymore, so there can be no violation. Consider John 4:19-24

19 The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”


Just look around on the different web boards. The evidence is all over. It used to be that the Premill view was prevalent merely because the other views were not accessible. But now, thanks to the Internet, many people are able to not only be exposed to, but discuss and Bereanize a variety of views.

And this is why the Preterist view is growing. As people are merely willing to consider it on its own scriptural merits - defanged and dehorned - a substantially number of believers are coming into the fold.

That a true kingdom with Christ reigning for Israel is coming and that a temple and sacrifices will be re-instituted we look to Ezekial:
Ezekial 37:21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

23Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

David won't be risen from the Dead but Jesus has and will return bodily to reign.
25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.



Ezekial 39:7So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

8Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

9And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

10So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.

11And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

12And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

13Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.

14And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.

15And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.

16And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.

17And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

18Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

19And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.

20Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

21And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

22So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

23And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

25Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

26After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekial 43: 4And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.

5So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.

6And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.

7And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

8 In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.

In 70 A.D. there was no descendent of David reigning on Israel throne, they have yet to have the peace described, and there is no mass grave of Gog in a place called hamongog, all of this is yet future and on the earth.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Could be the pool was still there in the 90's. True Jerusalem was sacked in AD 70, but that does not mean the pool was not still being used.

 

[asterisktom]

That a true kingdom with Christ reigning for Israel is coming and that a temple and sacrifices will be re-instituted we look to Ezekial:
Ezekial 37:21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

23Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

David won't be risen from the Dead but Jesus has and will return bodily to reign.
25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

You put verse 27 to a different use than the Apostle Paul does. You say these events are yet future, but Paul, drawing on many parts of this Ezekiel passage describes a tabernacle being built already in his time, a spiritual one. Ezekiel's future was Paul's "now" - as in "Now is the day of salvation." Consider 2 Cor. 6:16:

14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:


“ I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people."

 

[thomas15]

I (thomas15) asked the question: If Jerusalem is really Babylon, then what is Babylon?

John of Japan said: I would like to hear our preterist view on that one.

OK, John, I did a little study and found out the answer. Babylon, in the 18th century became spiritual Hoboken, New Jersey. Hoboken, it turns out, meets all of the requirements of the end times Babylon.

Tom

 

[revmwc]

You put verse 27 to a different use than the Apostle Paul does. You say these events are yet future, but Paul, drawing on many parts of this Ezekiel passage describes a tabernacle being built already in his time, a spiritual one. Ezekiel's future was Paul's "now" - as in "Now is the day of salvation." Consider 2 Cor. 6:16:

14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:


“ I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people."

We believers are the temple of the Holy Spirit, He indwells us. The temple of the Holy Spirit has no agreement with idols. Tah is what Paul tells us, 1 Corinthians 6:
18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Paul makes it very clear which person of the God Head resides in us as a temple. Christ still must come and reign on David's throne that is still cler in scripture after scripture as I have been posting.

 

[thomas15]

Let me just answer this one for now. As I have time I will get back to the rest of your post. Book 1, pages 834-837 of Hendrickson's edition is the first place I would turn to. See also his comments in the Preface to the Revised Edition, v-vi.

On a related note from this same volume are his suggestive comments on why Babylon should not be understood as the Roman Catholic Church, p.844ff.

It is up to the reader to accept Schaff's reasoning for the early date of Revelation but if you do, it causes problems with the preterist teaching that Jerusalem is actually Babylon. Of course if you read beyond pg 837 and factor in the fact that Schaff, while interesting and informative is none the less a theological liberal, other problems arise which are not so easy to answer.

 

[ituttut]

Hello yourself! So enlighten me. Where in Scripture did that particular statement come from?

God has scattered His word around, and wishes us to bring together. There is no ONE verse, so we look for a verse to help us on our journey of understanding. I say we can believe the testimony of Jesus. John 21:21-24, "Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 22. Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. 23. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? 24. This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true."

John is not still here, but John in his old age was given permission to give the testimony, the full testimony of Jesus Christ, and not just of Jesus on earth.

We know the Gospel of John is set apart from the other Gospels. There is a reason. It contains things such as John 3:16, which nothing that direct can be found in the other Gospels. The wording of this verse could not be used until He came to John. This kind of knowledge had to be hidden for it is part of the Secret. So an Apostle of Jesus while on earth, with this kind of information could not have been written until after Paul's death. Why? John, while Paul was alive, could not write a book that would include a message of the Gentile being mad equal with Israel. This was not what John was appointed to preach. John, just as James, and Peter said they would not preach to the Gentile. They shook hands with Paul, Barnabas as we know from Acts 15, and shown in Galatians 2:9, "And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision." We know at death a person is dead. A person (of the flesh) is released from any bonds, agreements, and proclamations they may have made. John was, after the death of Paul and Barnabas, with another bound together with them, free to write all of his books.



Not until after Damascus Road could something like this be understood, and it could not be understood until taught. Many today will still not acknowledge, or they refuse to believe the beginning of salvation by the Grace of God, through His name, is remission of sins, was not before known.

Shortly after Christ Jesus spoke face to fact with lSaul/Paul on Damascus Road we see Peter is demanded to go to the first Gentile, and likely the last one, and give a sermon. The message Peter gave to the Gentile was not the same message Peter was instructed to give to the men of Israel, as we see in Acts 2:38. God's people are told for remission of their sins they must repent and be water baptized. The message that came out of Peter's mouth to the Gentile says no such thing. Acts 0:43 is another gospel, yet from the same God, as Paul says in Galatians 1:6. We Gentiles were not asked to make Covenant with Him. God is disgusted with His unfaith wife. So they have Cross to bear that we heathens do not. Does not Acts 10:43 tell us what to preach? Our own Apostle Paul tells us YES, for the Gospel of Jesus Christ from heaven was revealed to His heavenly appointed Apostle. God put into the mouth of Peter, what God will expound on and explain to Paul. What did God put into the mouth of Peter to speak to the Gentile in Acts 1l:43 for the remission of sins? So very simple for we today. "… that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."

To shorten, John had to receive, and understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ in heaven before he wrote his books. Have you ever noticed that John does not mention in his books, apart from Israel, the need to repent or be water baptized? No one today can repent of breaking their Covenant with God, therefore water Baptism is not necessary.

 

[John of Japan]

"Pay attention" I laughed out loud when I read this. Actually I just sighed. Yes, I know the difference. And?

So if you know the difference, why get offended and point out your internal evidence when I said that you gave no external evidence?

Do a study in Scripture, John. Put away all your goofy man's wisdom and just do a careful study of the word "spiritual" and how it is used in the Bible. You may be surprised.

Such condescension!

Let me see. Since I've preached the Word of God since 1970, pastored in Japan since 1981 and taught in Bible schools in Japan since 1986, I think I've got this one covered.

But hey, you being such a spiritual one, how about you answer my direct challenge in a new thread to your denial of the literal, physical 2nd coming of Jesus Christ, something that has always been counted a fundamental of the faith in evangelicalism and in Protestantism in general? Frankly I don't believe you can. To believe your failed doctrine, you must completely ignore the manner of all fulfilled prophecy concerning Jesus Christ in His first coming.

 

[John of Japan]

John is not still here, but John in his old age was given permission to give the testimony, the full testimony of Jesus Christ, and not just of Jesus on earth.

Um, yeah, this is the one particular thing I wanted to know about, not all the rest. And you still didn't give an answer as to how you know this. I know of nothing in Scripture about John being given "permission." That's not how the doctrine of revelation and inspiration is usually described. But let it pass, lest we derail the thread.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

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[ituttut]

Um, yeah, this is the one particular thing I wanted to know about, not all the rest. And you still didn't give an answer as to how you know this. I know of nothing in Scripture about John being given "permission." That's not how the doctrine of revelation and inspiration is usually described. But let it pass, lest we derail the thread.

But John, continuing on subject, scripture you may not have read was in my post that says just that. John 21:23, " Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?"

I believe every word that Jesus spoke. If Jesus did not Will (permit to happen), then John would not have tarried. Had not Jesus allowed John to tarry, who would have written his Gospel, letters, and Revelation?

With inspection we see that John's Gospel does not carry the Great Commission. It does not carry us into Acts, as do the other Gospels, which will lead us to Damascus Road. But the Gospel of John confirms the gospel revealed to Paul. Did any other Gospel give you John 3:16? Paul explains John 3:16, and then John confirms what could not be understood while Jesus was on earth.

 

[John of Japan]

But John, continuing on subject, scripture you may not have read was in my post that says just that. John 21:23, " Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?"

I believe every word that Jesus spoke. If Jesus did not Will (permit to happen), then John would not have tarried. Had not Jesus allowed John to tarry, who would have written his Gospel, letters, and Revelation?

With inspection we see that John's Gospel does not carry the Great Commission. It does not carry us into Acts, as do the other Gospels, which will lead us to Damascus Road. But the Gospel of John confirms the gospel revealed to Paul. Did any other Gospel give you John 3:16? Paul explains John 3:16, and then John confirms what could not be understood while Jesus was on earth.

Thanks for replying. I'll not pursue this lest we derail the thread except to say that I consider John 20:21-22 is the Great Commission in John.

 

[ituttut]

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Yes Berean.