Perseverance of the Saints

[DHK]

or eternal security of the believer.

I know I am saved because I have put my faith and trust in Jesus Christ, and he granted my salvation and forgiveness of sins. This is based on his promises in His Word that He has paid the penalty for my sins by atoning for them with His blood. I trusted Him.

Some would call that a "self-centered" salvation and thus no salvation at all (a Calvinist view). Why? It centers around my choice, my free will to choose Christ and put my faith in him.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:13)
--The word "know" is used here. I know I have eternal life because I have believed on the name of the Son of God. This is the promise of God. It is Scripture. It is eternal security or an assurance of salvation.

I have heard it said by some that are Calvinists that since they don't believe in the "whosoever wills," but rather that Christ died for the elect, and that they are the elect, they will persevere.
My question is:
How do you know you are the elect of God?
What assurance do you have?
I know because I have believed. But you deny choice, free will.
What assurance do you have that you are one of the elect? How can you know for sure. Are you sure you are eternally secure in the hand of God? If so, how are you sure?

Help me understand your position here.

 

[annsni]

or eternal security of the believer.

I know I am saved because I have put my faith and trust in Jesus Christ, and he granted my salvation and forgiveness of sins. This is based on his promises in His Word that He has paid the penalty for my sins by atoning for them with His blood. I trusted Him.

Some would call that a "self-centered" salvation and thus no salvation at all (a Calvinist view). Why? It centers around my choice, my free will to choose Christ and put my faith in him.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:13)
--The word "know" is used here. I know I have eternal life because I have believed on the name of the Son of God. This is the promise of God. It is Scripture. It is eternal security or an assurance of salvation.

I have heard it said by some that are Calvinists that since they don't believe in the "whosoever wills," but rather that Christ died for the elect, and that they are the elect, they will persevere.
My question is:
How do you know you are the elect of God?
What assurance do you have?
I know because I have believed. But you deny choice, free will.
What assurance do you have that you are one of the elect? How can you know for sure. Are you sure you are eternally secure in the hand of God? If so, how are you sure?

Help me understand your position here.

I can answer, I think. You know that you are the elect of God because of what you just posted: that you believed. Those who are not elect will never believe. Anyone who wishes to be saved is elect. Pretty simple. There is not one person who wishes to be truly saved who will not be. The very fact that they desire God shows that God has chosen them. So I see what you believe about your salvation is the "man's view" and are just missing the step that happened outside of your knowledge - God's drawing you.

 

[DHK]

I can answer, I think. You know that you are the elect of God because of what you just posted: that you believed. Those who are not elect will never believe. Anyone who wishes to be saved is elect. Pretty simple. There is not one person who wishes to be truly saved who will not be. The very fact that they desire God shows that God has chosen them. So I see what you believe about your salvation is the "man's view" and are just missing the step that happened outside of your knowledge - God's drawing you.

What I refer to as God "drawing" me is the Holy Spirit "convicting" me of my sin. I don't believe in regeneration before salvation, neither in God giving faith to the unregenerate. But those are other topics. The fact is that I believed. As another poster told me: "Christ died for me--God centered." "I believed in Christ--man centered." I don't agree with his dichotomy. But he, being one of "the elect" puts "belief" out of the equation.

 

[annsni]

What I refer to as God "drawing" me is the Holy Spirit "convicting" me of my sin. I don't believe in regeneration before salvation, neither in God giving faith to the unregenerate. But those are other topics. The fact is that I believed. As another poster told me: "Christ died for me--God centered." "I believed in Christ--man centered." I don't agree with his dichotomy. But he, being one of "the elect" puts "belief" out of the equation.

See, I agree with both but it's just speaking of a different entry point into the new birth. It's like saying "The mom pushed the child out." However, we forget that we need to go back to the hormones that the placenta put out to cause the uterus to contract to cause the cervix to open. So yes, mom pushed the baby out but the rest of the stuff happened to even if she doesn't talk about it.

 

[DHK]

See, I agree with both but it's just speaking of a different entry point into the new birth. It's like saying "The mom pushed the child out." However, we forget that we need to go back to the hormones that the placenta put out to cause the uterus to contract to cause the cervix to open. So yes, mom pushed the baby out but the rest of the stuff happened to even if she doesn't talk about it.

"Mom pushed the baby out."
God forced me into salvation?
Wrong analogy. I don't think that is what Christ was teaching. No one can be forced into salvation.

 

[annsni]

"Mom pushed the baby out."
God forced me into salvation?
Wrong analogy. I don't think that is what Christ was teaching. No one can be forced into salvation.

Who forces anyone into anything? Do you think there is anyone who is saved who does not wish to be? I've never once experienced that. Ever. However, OFTEN times, I've had people tell me that they were so drawn to Christ that there was nothing they could do BUT believe on Him. THAT is the difference.

 

[quantumfaith]

What I refer to as God "drawing" me is the Holy Spirit "convicting" me of my sin. I don't believe in regeneration before salvation, neither in God giving faith to the unregenerate. But those are other topics. The fact is that I believed. As another poster told me: "Christ died for me--God centered." "I believed in Christ--man centered." I don't agree with his dichotomy. But he, being one of "the elect" puts "belief" out of the equation.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[DHK]

Who forces anyone into anything? Do you think there is anyone who is saved who does not wish to be? I've never once experienced that. Ever. However, OFTEN times, I've had people tell me that they were so drawn to Christ that there was nothing they could do BUT believe on Him. THAT is the difference.

Then why use an analogy where a mother forces her child out of the womb?

 

[Brother Jeremy Slone]

See, I agree with both but it's just speaking of a different entry point into the new birth. It's like saying "The mom pushed the child out." However, we forget that we need to go back to the hormones that the placenta put out to cause the uterus to contract to cause the cervix to open. So yes, mom pushed the baby out but the rest of the stuff happened to even if she doesn't talk about it.

good analogy, And even before that there had to be a conception, Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

 

[quantumfaith]

good analogy, And even before that there had to be a conception, Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Yes, this was a great juxtaposition to highlight the fact that it is "by grace we are saved".

 

[Brother Jeremy Slone]

"Mom pushed the baby out."
God forced me into salvation?
Wrong analogy. I don't think that is what Christ was teaching. No one can be forced into salvation.

Psalm 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Philippians 2:12 ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

I'm glad I am a "whosoever"

 

[DHK]

Psalm 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Philippians 2:12 ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

I'm glad I am a "whosoever"

The verses quoted (NT) speak of our sanctification. Yes, God works in me, and will continue to do so until Christ comes. But He didn't start doing so until I believed on Him.

 

[Brother Jeremy Slone]

The verses quoted (NT) speak of our sanctification. Yes, God works in me, and will continue to do so until Christ comes. But He didn't start doing so until I believed on Him.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

justified and sanctified or sanctified and justified I don't see how you can have one with out the other.

 

[annsni]

Then why use an analogy where a mother forces her child out of the womb?

Because it was the best one I could think of in between my daughter vomiting again.


** Side note - my daughter is experiencing a big setback in this journey. Not sure if you knew but she had a large tumor on her pancreas removed Wednesday after being very very ill for just about the entire month of April (it was diagnosed on April 7). She was put on a regular diet today and apparently it was not a good idea. She's been vomiting for the last few hours and I'm getting worried - but trying to keep busy while she rests.

 

[DHK]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

justified and sanctified or sanctified and justified I don't see how you can have one with out the other.

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (Romans 5:1)
Justification is when a person is saved.
At that point in time a person is also positionally sanctified. However, sanctification, unlike salvation, is a process which continues throughout the believer's lifetime.

 

[DHK]

Because it was the best one I could think of in between my daughter vomiting again.


** Side note - my daughter is experiencing a big setback in this journey. Not sure if you knew but she had a large tumor on her pancreas removed Wednesday after being very very ill for just about the entire month of April (it was diagnosed on April 7). She was put on a regular diet today and apparently it was not a good idea. She's been vomiting for the last few hours and I'm getting worried - but trying to keep busy while she rests.

No, Ann. I did not know. I have to rush off to church now, but I will keep her in prayer. God bless.

 

[Brother Jeremy Slone]

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (Romans 5:1)
Justification is when a person is saved.
At that point in time a person is also positionally sanctified. However, sanctification, unlike salvation, is a process which continues throughout the believer's lifetime.

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

wouldn't salvation be continuing here too?

Note: I believe our eternal salvation was secure when Christ died for us on the cross but feel salvation or the joys of it are from our obedience here in time.

 

[Brother Jeremy Slone]

as far as justified wasn't God working before that?
Romans 8:29- 30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

It sounds to me it was a sure thing before justification and will be on through.

 

[DHK]

as far as justified wasn't God working before that?
Romans 8:29- 30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

It sounds to me it was a sure thing before justification and will be on through.

My salvation is not based on God's foreknowledge or God's omniscience. It is based on the decision and choice that God Himself has given me to make, within the realm of his sovereignty. If you look into my signature line it says:

I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

I know...I have believed...I am persuaded...I have committed.
This is Scripture, not just me speaking. It was Paul's testimony, and I make it mine as well. I am assured of my eternal security because I have placed my faith, my salvation in His hands.
The fact that He knew the choice that I would make, makes no bearing on the choice that I did make. He just knew the choice that I would make.

 

[WITBOTL]

Hi DHK,


In terms of your choice to put your faith in Christ as the basis for your salvation, was that intrinsic ability to choose which you possessed before you were saved infallible? In other words was it possible for you to err in your choice. Was it possible for you to not quite believe enough, or slightly misdirect the object of your faith, or hold just a little bit back and thereby negate your salvation? What if you were just emotionally manipulated into making this choice, or had second thoughts the next day? What if your motive was not pure? How can you be sure that the choice you made was executed sufficiently to obtain salvation? Is there a threshold of faith which must be met in order to secure salvation?

I believe Jesus is the author and finisher of my faith. I believe the basis of my salvation is Christ's work on the cross and I believe in him and his work applied to me. I believe my faith bears a perfection which I could never muster because he is its author and finisher. I believe my salvation is secure despite myself because I complete thoroughly and totally rely on him for every aspect of my salvation. Do I believe? Is my faith my own? Yes, absolutely, but its source is Christ himself and the only reason I will stand in his presence in that day is because of his grace and attention directed towards me personally and particularly. Perhaps many men better than I could trust in the faith they can muster within themselves to effect grace upon themselves, but I am afraid I would fail in even this and I love your tag line for this very reason.

How do I know, how do I believe, how am I persuaded, how did I commit it unto him? I can only answer all these by his grace shed upon me abundantly.