Perseverance of the Saints

We have a pretty good analogy in the story of Lazerus' resurrection.

When Jesus called out "Lazerus, come forth," did Lazerus hear him? Yep.

How can that be? Because Lazerus was already alive. And because he was alive, he was able to hear and respond to Jesus' command.

So, we could say that when we were saved, it was because we had been made spiritually alive by the Holy Spirit, so we could hear and respond to the call of the gospel.

We can discuss whether there was a gap between regeneration and salvation, but it makes no difference. Regeneration always results in salvation. No exceptions.

 

That is presumptuously used for the wrong context of an argument to which scripture never alludes back to it, for the subject you are using it for.

However, if you wish to use your definition of 'dead' (at least in a spiritual context) you must do so consistently every time it is used. You can't have the definition of being spiritual dead contradicting itself - at least not when scripture uses it.

So when scripture state "we -are- dead to sin" the same definition you propose for being dead in the spiritual sense much remain the same. He is unable to not only do sin, but be tempted of such through various means, as hearing, ect..

And then there comes the problem that being 'dead to sin' bring to the table while being consistent, a few verses later in the same chapter it states we should 'consider ourselves dead to sin' as well. So either this means the first emphatic statement made (we ARE dead to sin) was wrong - or - that the term means something else than the proposed offered view, and thus one can BE dead and yet still able do (to some degree) what we are dead to.

So if dead means -having no ability - or being wooden literal, we have a problem. But if it maintains it's consistent usage regarding the spiritual sense it means we are 'separated from', and the problem is no longer an issue.

IF I may brother, let me add this. While the story is often used by the reformed to validate regeneration preceding life the converse actually stands (again IF this passage was to be used to describe spiritual death) in line with the Non-Cal position MORE than the Reformed one because Jesus own statement would reflect it. -If anyone believes in me, though they were dead, YET shall they live. (but since we know this isn't referring to that event we don't use that passage). It in fact deals with the physical resurrection to be as promised.


However, regeneration IS salvation- no exceptions! :laugh:

 

I believe Christ spoke to Lazerus and raised him from the dead naturally so and this being an example for us being raised from a dead state Spiritually. We glean regeneration from this story.
John 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. Regeneration
:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Now Lazarus is alive and notice what Jesus said unto them, Loose him, and let him go. There we can glean the gospel bringing one unto salvation. The truth shall set us free, the knowledge of Christ.
Consider the damsel of the ruler of the synagogue.
Mark 5:41 And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, "Talitha cumi;" which is, being interpreted, "Damsel, I say unto thee, arise. I glean from this passage regeneration.
5:43 And he charged them straitly that no man should know it; and commanded that something should be given her to eat.
Like he told Peter, loveth thou me.....Feed my sheep. The gospel follows.

 

Unfortunately, NOTHING in scripture allows for such a view of these passages, especially since Lazarus is USED by Jesus Himself to speak to the literal phyical resurrection and never, nothing whatsoever, to any presumed spiritually dead state. You can't even find that being the specifically the illustration, much less the implication or even an allusion to it. Thus what you have is a complete distortion of what the passage is intended to speak to and of.

Again IF it was speaking of the subject you are postulating.. you do realize it is more holding to the non-cal than the Reformed position in that Jesus states specifically (paraphrased)
-If anyone believes in me, though he were dead, YET shall he live. Thus they are DEAD when they believe.

 

And how does that analogy fit in with the analogy of the various soils actually taught by Christ and applied to the matter of salvation? Could Lazarus have come out of the tomb but got caught up in some briars and choked out before getting to follow Christ? Could he have been trampled because he allowed his heart to grow hardened? Could he have come out looking alive and well, but been so shallow and weak that he quickly died again?

Calvinists presume that the Lazarus narrative is somehow a perfect representation of what the "effectual calling" must be like, but they don't leave room for the many passages which are not merely narratives, but clear teaching passages which contradict this application. What is to say that the calling from the grave will effectually lead the once dead man to faith and discipleship? What is to say that he won't be choked out, hardened or distracted by the wealth and pleasures of this world even after being called forth from the grave? By what authority do you make such presumptions upon this narrative?

 

I see that now that we have passed from death unto life is talking about us in the Spiritual sense though our outer man has not received his change yet. The outerman will get his change in the last day. Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Now this is the struggle, two natures if you will. The one is passed from death unto life and the other is to be reckoned dead and not to serve it. :12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. But we understand to live after the flesh is really not living. :13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: says live you shall die, I think we can discern this with understanding but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. In order to do this one has to be already regenerated :14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. SO I conclude we have to be regenerated first in order to do any action afterwards. Then being made alive by the Spirit we reckon our fleshly desires dead. Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. :7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. To do this one had to be first regenerated or made alive in Christ and then our old nature is to be reckoned dead for he is going back to the dust to later get the change and also pass from death unto life as we were inward. We have the earnest of our inheritance but will get it fully in the resurrection at the last day.

 

Being spiritually dead does not equal inability, this is proved by the word of Jesus himself.

Jn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the DEAD shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

This verse is speaking of those who are physically alive, but spiritually dead. Jesus did not say the living shall hear his voice, but the DEAD.

How do we know this is speaking of the spiritually dead? Because in vs. 28-29 he speaks of the physically dead.

Jn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the GRAVES shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This is future, Jesus did not say, "and now is" as he said in vs. 25. In this verse he speaks of the grave, so he is now speaking of physical death. But, he says the evil (spiritually dead) will hear his voice and will come forth.

Jesus knows doctrine, if a person has to be made alive before they can hear his voice, he would have said so. No, twice here he shows the SPIRITUALLY DEAD can hear his voice.

There are two persons involved here, Jesus who speaks, and the DEAD that hear.

Regeneration is not monergistic, and spiritual death does not mean inability.

 

The Dead hearing the voice of God is regeneration. The holy calling. The quickening of the Spirit. Being born of the Spirit. Then after that the gospel will get a responce from them that are alive spiritually bringing them unto salvation. In regeneration they are saved for heaven and immortal glory and through the gospel bringing the knowledge of Christ they respond. Connecting them unto this life of joy and hope in Christ.

 

It seems to me that faith is spoken of as both a noun and a verb. It is both a possession and an action. However, action cannot exist without the possession or the possession without the action. I think you are correct when you say we do not choose or will before regeneration, and I agree that God has to Act first then we having a new nature can act. But, I think that God's action of regeneration and his bestowing repentance and faith are one act on the part of God. The evidence that this has happened is the "verb" part of faith or the action of the possession which from man's perspective is the "visible" part of faith. It seems to me also, that there is a tendency to make regeneration something apart from our spirit entering into a reconciled relationship with God, or the removal of the separation from God and it seems to me this regeneration is as much through faith as faith is the product of regeneration. Does that make sense? The act of God in the new birth appears to me to be the bestowal of repentance and faith, and that faith is the grace through which new spiritual life flows. The fact that we see evidence of it by the action of faith is to me a reflection of the reality of spiritual life. In other words faith is not obtaining regeneration as a prerequisite but it is, in a sense the conduit through which we have regeneration.

If we see this as faith into regeneration, or our act of faith producing regeneration, or our act of faith being observed by God and then having that faith rewarded with spiritual life, brings forth the possibility and difficulty of having faith but not having spiritual life.

 

Jesus said those dead that hear (receive/believe) his voice SHALL live. This shows that life is given them AFTER hearing while being yet dead.

The spiritually dead are not like a lifeless corpse. The story of the rich man who died and went to hell proves this. He could see Abraham and Lazarus, both spoke to and heard Abraham, could feel torment and experienced thirst, and even showed concern for his living brothers.

The teaching that the spiritually dead are unable to hear and respond to the word of God is utterly false and disproved by the words of Jesus himself.

 

Thats right, so how can it be lost?

 

My point is God speaking is regeneration from the dead. This is being quickened by the Spirit. Then the gospel will have an affect on them.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. Now why did some have faith and others did not? You either believe you can make up your mind while spiritually dead or you believe those that are alive spiritually can receive it. Now Paul said in I Corinthians 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Notice them that are begotten were in Christ, not into Christ. He begotten them that are alive in Christ because Christ is in them and they are born of his word and receive it. Them that do not have his word in them do not receive it. Consider the parable of the Sower. Some seed fell on good ground. Why was some good ground? Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit whithin you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: :20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. The good ground where the seed produced fruit. Matthew 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hunderedfold, some sixty, and some thirty.

 

I disagree with you. Jesus did not say the living would hear his voice, and those that hear shall live, that is nonsensical.

No Jesus said the DEAD (not the living) would hear (ability) his voice, and they (the dead) that hear (ability) SHALL live (life follows the hearing).

As for the parable of the soils, the seed represents the word of God, the soil represents different persons. The wayside is hard soil that has been trodden down. This represents people whose hearts are hardened by sin, they do not receive (believe) the seed and so it cannot spring up which represents regeneration.

The good soil are those with an honest and good heart (Jesus's words) who having heard the word, keep it (believe), and bring forth fruit (regeneration).

A seed does not spring up (regeneration) until AFTER it has been planted or received by the soil.

 

Personally, I rather hold to the position that it cannot.

 

Winman my point is the voice of Christ makes them alive then they respond to the gospel. The voice of the Preacher is not the voice of Jesus. As he said the hour is coming and now is when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God and they that hear shall live. Like in John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. Ok you disagree with me, but I am saying this is done and causes them to be converted by the gospel being preached. The good heart or good ground is done by God which enables the gospel to be planted and bring forth fruit.

 

bjs:

Yes, thats the heart that was given in new birth, it will receive the word of God into it and bring forth fruit.

 

False. In this parable the seed does not spring up into fruit until it has been received by the good soil.

That is the whole point of this parable. The wayside soil was hard and trodden on, the seed could not penetrate and so lay on the surface and the fowls came and took it away before it could spring up.

The good soil received the seed and so the seed sprang up.

That Jesus is speaking about men's willingness to hear and believe his word in this parable is shown by what Jesus said to his disciples when explaining this parable to them.

Mark 4:24 And he said unto them, TAKE HEED WHAT YE HEAR: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: AND UNTO YOU THAT HEAR SHALL MORE BE GIVEN.

It is the person who is responsible to hear, the same seed or word of God was sown to all the soils, including the wayside soil.

 

Who makes the soil good, Winman?