Perseverance of the Saints

See the above points!

 

DHK,

Are you sure you want to stand by this statement? If so, we are getting closer to discovering why we do not agree much!
Here is your statement:

You say I took a part of a verse"out of context" I am not certain that you understand the context here at all.....lets take a look!

you say;
1] in Romans 8....they that are in the flesh..are believers

2]This is not speaking of the unsaved, but the saved.

Now if we read the chapter with understanding....we will see that you are totally contradicting what Paul writes.....You have totally missed the contrast.

The Christians in Romans 8 are Spiritually ,indwelt,and led.

 

Well DHK,
Thank you for your response.....although we are not at all close on this.
I have tried to help but have not been able to make progress as I woukd have liked.
We both have stated what we believe.
We both are consistent with that form of teaching we hold to.
We both view each other as holding to error.

Perhaps our interaction will let others work through these verses and see what issues are at stake. Both positions are not correct.They are completely in opposition one to another. As with many issues here.
May it be that we will cling to truth and depart from error.

 

Amen! I believe it's the biblical position.

We can look at it in different ways, that's where lines may appear to cross, but I don't believe that they actually do. I didn't have time to read the thread so I may be going over old ground.

We are told that we can know...as you have stated. Also, that His Spirit will confirm thess things with our spirit. Yet, we are also told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling...to check ourselves daily to see if we are in the faith, etc.

All of those passages (to name a few) are correct. Is that what you're talking about as a contradiction?

Perseverance is one one example. It was sufficient to answer the question at hand.

That's the same reason for me. also, I can take comfort in the fact that God promises to uphold us, to finish what He started, after all, He is the Author and finisher of our faith.

But, if you were wrong, self deceived, and your faith was not geneuine, wouldn't you want to know? That's why we look at the evidences. Here's a quote by C.S. Lewis that makes the same point...better...

"God has not been trying an experiment on my faith or love in order to find out their quality. He knew it already. It was I who didn't. In this trial he makes us occupy the dock, the witness box, and the bench all at once. He always knew that my temple was a house of cards. His only way of making me realize the fact was to knock it down." --C. S. Lewis

Think of it like this. Are you familiar with what is called Lordship salvation?

Anyways...

Romans 10:9 says, If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

But this produses evidences, thus, the warnings in scripture...

..."Our obedience does not merit salvation, of course. But genuine conversion to Christ inevitably produces obedience. Therefore, while obedience is never a condition for salvation, it is nonetheless always salvation's fruit. That is why Scripture speaks of obedience as an essential evidence of true Christianity: "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 Jn. 2:4). "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God" (3:10). "He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God" (3 Jn. 11)"....

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/obedience.htm

Jesus said that we can tell a tree by it's fruit. James says that a faith without works is a dead faith. I suppose if we look at it correctly, as an evidence and not a merit for justification, it's not a problem. Paul stated that we should check ourselves daily to see whether we are in the faith. Likewise we are told to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. All of these warnings in scripture are about self deception. you see?

Jesus and the Apostles often taught us that if we are saved, we will begin to manifest Him/Jesus in our lives. It's an evidence that can be used to gage the sincerity of our profession of faith.

Which He doesn't want to do?

Think evidence, not merit. His merit, Him manifesting Himself in us as the evidence, as we are daily being conformed to Him.

 

You never said, “'God would never give a spiritual gift of the fruit of the Spirit to the unregenerate”?
I agree with that statement and have stated that more than once.

I assure you the prevailing position within the Reformed/Calvinist/ Sovereign Grace camp is regeneration before belief.

No, your position is against Biblical teaching; that the dead can have faith, and that personal faith is what makes one alive. It's life first, then belief. Dead men do nothing. It's regeneration before belief.

Once again, I agree. I've agreed with this all through our dialog, but you persist in saying otherwise. One is first born of the Spirit and made alive, and then is able to believe. It is your error to believe that personal faith is what makes one alive. Dead men do nothing.

You disappoint me DHK with these incessant accusations, smears, and insinuations; I had actually thought there was more to you than this. I've changed nothing nor skirted anything.

He regenerates them, makes them alive, so that they may believe the gospel and become well pleasing to Him and experience that wonderful realm of joy, peace, and righteousness in the Holy Spirit.

I've never said God forces them. Again, you'll spew out anything in order to discredit your opponent, won't you? You disappoint me DHK; I had actually thought there was more to you than this. God makes them alive, 'Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power'. He doesn't force them, He makes them Spiritually alive.

Same as above.

I'm not altering God's Word, you just have a shallow comprehension of God's Word.

And concerning Acts 16:31, you make the common mistake of assuming 'saved' to be synonymous with 'born from above'. Anyone who is 'saved' has already been 'born from above'. It's regeneration, then conversion.

Absolutely NOT taken out of context, and it has EVERYTHING to do with the topic of regeneration before belief. Here's the passage:

2 but we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by the manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man`s conscience in the sight of God.
3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in them that perish:
4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus` sake.
6 Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the exceeding greatness of the power may be of God, and not from ourselves; 2 Cor 4

Knowing the violence that you do to the scriptures by forcing 'water' to mean the 'the gospel' in Jn 3:5, show how you force 'free will' into the above passage.

There is not one iota of truth that I have even come close to insinuating that God gives faith to the unregenerate, but you persist with that insinuation like repeating a mantra over and over again. You disappoint me DHK; I had actually thought there was more to you than this.

Your belief is wrong. Go preach to the ones that lie in a cemetery and see.

No, I say that God first makes the dead alive and then they're able to believe.

No, I've not contradicted myself. Here we go again with your incessant misrepresentations. My position has been unwavering all through this dialog; life before belief. Dead men cannot believe. Dead men do nothing.

OK. I'm not particularly interested in the shallow comprehensions of gospel means missionaries either. In post #30 you said (another of your snide insinuations), “This is such an unbiblical concept I am floored to hear such a belief coming from Baptists.” I responded with the link and excerpts to show that the sound Biblical doctrine of regeneration before conversion is indeed a Baptist position, and an old one at that.

So you say.

Here we go again with your incessant misrepresentations, smears, and accusations. Not once have I even come close to insinuating that God gives the unregenerate faith. My position has been unwavering all through this dialog; life before belief. Dead men cannot believe. Dead men do nothing.

You're quick to smear, accuse of heresy, bring into question one's salvation, or just write something off as 'hogwash' if you're unable to scripturally refute it. I'll provide the first paragraph of the article from which the excerpt came that I provided:

“ The Bible doctrine of regeneration has suffered at the hands of its enemies as well as its friends. Its enemies marketed the doctrine in the 1970's after a Southern Baptist layman who was running for the office of President of the United States announced that he was a "born again Christian." Not long after this, many products on the market were described as "born again." Love songs spoke of feelings which were akin to "being born again." Actors and athletes alike were considered to be "born again" in their respective careers when they made a comeback of one type or another. More tragic than that, perhaps, is the treatment that the Bible doctrine of regeneration has received at the hands of its professed "friends." In many Christian circles today experiencing "regeneration" (or "being born again") is simply something that happens when a person "makes a decision to accept Jesus Christ into his heart as personal Savior." Now it is certainly true that Jesus is the Savior, and that he saves sinners on a personal level. However, the idea that the experience of regeneration is a decision which every sinner ought to make and indeed every sinner can make is an idea which is seriously defective. The defects in this idea become increasingly clear when viewed from the vantage points of Biblical material, historic Baptist teachings, and the contemporary Southern Baptist position on this doctrine. Regeneration may be defined as that supernatural work of the Holy Spirit of God which is performed in the life of a sinner whereby the sinner is given a new heart, being brought from spiritual death to spiritual life, and is made able and willing to repent of his sin before God and trust alone in Jesus Christ to be his Lord and Savior.” Bill Ascol
http://www.founders.org/journal/fj02/article2.html

Here we go again with your incessant misrepresentations, smears, and accusations. Not once have I even come close to insinuating that God gives the unregenerate faith. My position has been unwavering all through this dialog; life before belief. Dead men cannot believe. Dead men do nothing.

 

I believe that all of us are born into the "sin of Adam" in that we share in his fall, and have a sin nature, that is at "war" against God...
I believe that we were corrupted by Sin , and that we cannot save ourselves, that is why God sent forth Jesus to die and atone for my sins...
I believe that Jesus did pay the sin debt penalty for entire World, was a penal substiutionary death on the Cross, it potentially able to save all who believe, but limited in the sense that it only effectual and applied to those elected/chosen by God...
I believe that we are born spiritual dead in sense unable to respond to Gospel on our own unless God works throught he Gospel and Holy Spirit to convict us, save us...

I believe that we are not able to come back into spititual relationship with God until/unless place personal faith in jesus Christ as Saviour...
I believe our faith is NOT a "work" that we do, as the Holy Spirit convicts usof sin, need for a Saviour, reveals Jesus to us, and allows us to believe and reeceive...
I believe faith is produced by the Holy Spirit is us when we hear the Gospel message, big difference is that you see it as something we can do by ourselnes, as God has granted"general" grace to receive jesus, that its dependent on how we respond to that appeal. I believe that since God intiates us having His grace by sending the Holy Spirit to us, gives us both internal work by the Bible, and external by his Spirit...
I believe that regeneration/faith happen pretty much same time, to us is at same time....
We still have to respond in faith and believe on Jesus to be saved!

 

So? What? How much time elapsed between Gen 12:1 and Gen 15:6? It's regeneration first, then TRUE conversion.

I beg to differ, it shows that head knowledge has ZILCH to do with the birth from above; “flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven”.

Of course Peter was regenerated long before that, if the truth be known, long before Christ called him, but it wasn't until that moment, when it pleased God, that Peter uttered those words, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God", that showed his conversion. If this was not significant, why did Christ ask, “Who do you say that I am?” It's regeneration first, then TRUE conversion.

You persist with this silly insinuation that I'm saying that God gives faith to the unregenerate. I've never even come close to insinuating that. The topic of the OP is perseverance of the Saints or eternal security of the believer, which you yourself derailed with your statement in post #3, “I don't believe in regeneration before salvation”. Why didn't you just start a thread on that topic? We've yet to discuss the topic of Perseverance of the Saints.

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Bump. Don't overlook this one either (post #58) DHK. We have much to discuss.

 

DHK, I think in order for you to understand our teaching you must consider our positioin of being Saved. Being Saved with eternal life is done by God. He purposed it to happen, He completed it on the Cross with Christ's death and it is confirmed in that He rose. In time the HolySpirit applies it (regeneration) to the Elect in his own time and manner. Now that we are quickened by the Spirit, that is being saved by his Grace (eternal life). And that Grace brings us through Faith in Christ. that is unto salvation (Connecting us in conversion). All that come through Faith in Christ is evidence of eternal life. We then have the knowledge that saves us from our fears and convictions. That truth sets us free and we have the Spirit of promise where we cry Abba Father. This is evidence that we are one of his and that in it's self saves us here in time compared to that Which God already purposed to do and declared from the beginning and completed on the Cross and resurrection of Christ then applied by the HolySpirit that was compared to the wind blowing where it listeth. Then do we have ears to hear with and eyes to see with then will the gospel have and effect on us and not before.

Let me consider with you Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. This is not being regenerated but converted. This is done after regeneration, now consider Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; The Word is Jesus Christ. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. They are preaching the word which we respond to because we already are born by the Word. This is the Word which is regeneration. Now look at John 5:37- 38 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me, Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. These were not regenerated and would not hear because they were dead or separated from God. He then tells them in 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. The Bible and Preaching of the bible doesn't give eternal life but reveals it and that is why the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith. Now back earlier in the chapter 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. You see in this verse is evidence you already have life and are regenerated. Now look at the following verse :25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. This is regeneration and being saved with eternal life.
2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, This is not preaching of the gospel but regeneration of the Spirit, the Word of God which is a holy calling. not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: Regeneration was done by God and that is being Saved by God and eternal life and then the gospel doesn't save us with eternal life but saves us unto the truth by the gospel bringing life and immortality to light through the gospel. The gospel didn't give eternal life but made it manifest. It declared that you are one of the elect and are already regenerated by his Spirit. Then that is why Paul told Timothy in Chapter 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. Timothy was not going to regenerate himself or them that heard him but bring them that are born of the truth unto it in conversion. Because they that are regenerated are the only ones it will have an effect on. Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the jew first, and also to the greek. :17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. So you can't have faith with out the Spirit and therefore must already believe in Christ then will you be saved with the truth in conversion.

Consider 1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: It is Christ that secured our eternal life and being made alive in time by the HolySpirit we are brought unto salvation. Where baptism also saves us, not regeneration but connects us unto salvation in time. not only in conversion but in obedience unto it as well. So you wont be obedient unless your converted and you won't be converted unless your regenerated and you wont be regenerated unless your the elect of God.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; This is to be quickened by the Spirit to be bornagain.
3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; Then when we are made alive by God we have his Spirit and the fruits of it.
3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

man is "dead" in that he is spiritual seperated from God, and does need the work of God to be able to reply to the message of the Gospel offer though. man still HAS to exercise faih, but grace and faith are gifts of God...

The part of it all that allows me to maintain these positions is that I think that the entire Human race was judged and found guilty in Adam, inherited sin nature, estranged from God, and UNLESS God himself did the saving work, NONE of us would ever get saved/redeemed....

Do think that you make good points, are worth discussing, just sayingf that we cal and Arms CAN learn to get along and stir each other to be "iron sharpening Iron" as their may come times where both camps just might have to rething held positions!

 

To be honest I have a difficult time separating regeneration from faith in one direction or the other. I cannot see any temporal separation between regeneration and faith, particularly if regeneration is literally removing our spirit's separation from God, or our spirit entering into that reconciled relationship with him. I cannot imagine the possibility of a man having saving faith without possessing that renewed spiritual relationship with God (regeneration) I also cannot imagine a man being regenerated (in a reconciled state?) without possessing faith. So, from a temporal standpoint the issue about which comes first, to me is moot... neither comes first, they both come together.

I don't think faith is the prerequisite for salvation, but that it is the agent through which our reconciled relationship with God flows. We were not rewarded for our own faith with regeneration. We were given repentance and faith in regeneration. Not as a reward for faith (which is then merit) but thoroughly by grace.

I do believe that saving faith is different from other forms of faith that we possess and to possess that kind faith requires the supernatural intervention of God. I believe that the Holy Spirit uses the Word of God to tug and cultivate and prepare the heart of the hearer, but ultimately there is a revelatory requirement from the Holy Spirit that the truth of the Word of God is not merely true, but it applies to me. Not that Jesus died for sins and rose again, but that he died for my sins. This is not an intellectual understanding of facts, nor is it merely an assent to the facts but a personal application of the promises of Christ. When I think about what makes me different than other men who are not saved, I cannot find the reasons within me. There are men with far more intellectual capacity, emotional capacity, men more deserving than me, of better pedigree, of better humor, more devoted to their fellow man, less self serving and on and on. Yet I am saved and they are not. Why? Two men confronted with the same gospel, one accepts it and the other rejects it. Why?

The question is did God do something for me that he did not do for that other man? Or, did I do something for myself, by myself that the other man did not do. I cannot accept that I was in any way better than the man who rejected Christ. I can only see that that man in every way was better than me. Yet, I am saved and he is not. How then did I accept Christ? I am driven to concluded that it is grace only bestowed upon me that is the difference. Grace not owed to either of us. I can only conclude that the very existence of my faith is by the grace of God. Is God unrighteous that he did not bestow grace upon that other man? Does God somehow become righteous in this equation only if I am the difference? In other words does it take a righteous act by me (put my faith in Christ) vs. an unrighteous act by him (reject Christ) for God to sidestep some sort of culpability in the damnation of the unsaved man? I submit that God is under no obligation to me or anyone. He is not culpable in a man's damnation because he shows grace to another man. He is absolutely holy and righteous to send us both and every other man from Adam outside of Christ straight to an eternity in the lake of fire. I am saved and the other man is not simply because God gave me grace which he did not give the other man. I believe my faith is that grace and my obtaining of it is by grace.

Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

why? Did Noah merit this favour, did he find grace in the eyes of the LORD because he was better or more righteous? I would submit that if Noah was in any way better or more righteous than the wicked men upon whom judgement was about to fall it was because of the grace he found in the eyes of the LORD and not the other way around.


Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

 

Kudos, well said. Thank you for your attitude expressed, even though I am not in complete agreement. Blessings

 

Agree with that , its just that we actually have to have the Grace of God operating on our behalf in order to have all those above listed things happen!

 

8 pages and no one posted this. I'm kinda disappointed. In Romans chapter 8 Paul talks of the struggle between the spirit and the flesh which the debate started in this thread but got off track.

Paul ends this chapter with the conclusion.

Romans 8:29-39 (New American Standard Bible)Bold added to emphasize key phrases.

29For those whom He (A)foreknew, He also (B)predestined to become (C)conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the (D)firstborn among many brethren;

30and these whom He (E)predestined, He also (F)called; and these whom He called, He also (G)justified; and these whom He justified, He also (H)glorified.

31(I)What then shall we say to these things? (J)If God is for us, who is against us?

32He who (K)did not spare His own Son, but (L)delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

33Who will bring a charge against (M)God's elect? (N)God is the one who justifies;

34who is the one who (O)condemns? Christ Jesus is He who (P)died, yes, rather who was [a](Q)raised, who is (R)at the right hand of God, who also (S)intercedes for us.

35Who will separate us from (T)the love of Christ? Will (U)tribulation, or distress, or (V)persecution, or (W)famine, or (X)nakedness, or (Y)peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
"(Z)FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly (AA)conquer through (AB)Him who loved us.

38For I am convinced that neither (AC)death, nor life, nor (AD)angels, nor principalities, nor (AE)things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from (AF)the love of God, which is (AG)in Christ Jesus our Lord. ​

If Paul was CONVINCED he was secure, its good enough for me. How can one lose Salvation according to deeds when it wasn't earned by works in the first place?

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ did all the work for us. We earned nothing but have that which was given to us freely by the love and grace of God.

 

Sorry, but I don't see anyone arguing that salvation in anyway is an act of "works".

 

I understand the point one can not separate Faith from regeneration. But when the gospel is heard do we act which would be faith into regeneration or are we regenerated with the Fruit of the Spirit which is Faith that we bring forth? Faith has to have an object which is Jesus Christ when presented in the gospel. My point is if we are not regenerated then we will not have Faith. I do not believe we choose or will before regeneration. I believe God has to Act first then we having a new nature can act and it is evidence when we believe the gospel. I do not believe man can have a mind to serve God without being regenerated. This has been the point I been attempting to put forth.

As far as God being the Word in creation I believe we also are his workmanship created in Christ unto Good works.
As God spoke by the word and said let there be light in creation he also spoke in me let there be light.

That is an experience that the Children of God go through. We are saved by Grace through Faith and that not of our selves it is a gift of God.