Perseverance of the Saints

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God quickens the dead, So sure faith is given to them that are regenerate. One believing in the gospel is evidence of eternal life. Now as said earlier in Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: by Faith, we believe.... but how do we and not others? Is it of our will or our own choice?
Well the bible says in 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. So without being regenerated by the Spirit we will not receive the gospel. In Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy. We know by nature we were the children of wrath even as others. SO outside of us being quickened we are just natural men. We just had carnal minds which were enmity towards God. That was our state before being born again of the Spirit. Well how is it that we are born again. Because we did what? Well John 3:8 says The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. The creature was passive in this, The wind blew where it listeth. So lets look at Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification and Job said it best 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? and in Job 26:2 How hast thou helped him that is without power? how savest thou the arm that hath no strength? Because he was delivered for us and was raised on the third day for our justification and since we are justified by faith let us see what sayeth the word of God. Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, :20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Therefore we are justified by Faith, Because he rose for our justification and that same power that raised him is the power by which we believe. That power of God that quickened us when we were dead. The same power is how we believe and are justified that raised Christ from the dead for our justification. Then we having his mercy then do we willeth and we runneth. You see Christ is the author and finisher of our faith.

 

But continually the scripture teaches that we are to believe unto eternal life, not the other way around.

John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Those who perish do so because the refused the truth, not because God refused to give them the truth.

They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. - 2 Thess 2:10

The gospel is not mentioned in this text. The "deep things of God" are being discussion (vs. 10). Even the 'brethren' in the church of Corinth were called "natural/carnal" men that couldn't receive these things. Those walking in the flesh can't understand the deep spiritual truths of God that only those who walk in the spirit can understand, even if they are church brethren. That is the lesson of the apostle in this passage. Not that the lost can't understand the clear powerful gospel appeal to be reconciled.

The Jews ran after and wanted salvation through the law more than any group of people, and Paul was simply showing that its not through their desire and effort in pursuit of salvation by the law that will get them saved, but it is faith alone. As Paul summarizes that chapter saying:

30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."

The debate of that day wasn't Cal vs. Arm; it was Jew vs. Gentile and that is what Paul is clearly addressing in this chapter.

Humble yourself and you will be exalted.

Yes, but notice it is OUR faith, not his. We must believe, whether that is effectually applied or freely chosen is the point of debate. And since Jesus rebukes men for having little or no faith I would say it's our choice, otherwise he would have rebuked God for not giving it.

 

Unto but not into. We being his workmanship in Christ Jesus aren't we connecting to that in Christ where we abide in Christ? like in Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Is this not talking to us who are in Christ. We believe unto this eternal life. In the following verse it says For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. and notice in verse :9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the SPirit of Christ, he is none of his. This Spirit is the power by Which WE Do Believe.

Yes they love not the truth, I agree

I understand Christ came to save that which is lost, But my point is if we are not regenerated we will not be reconciled by the gospel. Because the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness but to us which are saved it is the power of God. Therefore being bornagain of the Spirit has to happen in order to be a warfare between the Spirit and flesh. Those in the flesh with out the Spirit then there is no warfare and they will not receive the gospel. In John 10:26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. :27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: :28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. :29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. These that come are them that the Father gave him. These are the lost (elect) that the Father gave him. As it sayeth no man can come to me unless my Father draw them. The Father quickens us and by his grace draws us to the Son through Faith.

Ok Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the SPirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. :17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. :18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. No problem here but they were not lead by the SPirit being not regenerated.

This surely would have to be done by God first taking out their stoney heart and giving them a heart of flesh. Revealing the truth of Salvation that it is of Christ to an undeserving sinner and it would be those he quickened to understand their condition and are no longer blind to desire this wouldn't you think? and therefore Christ is appealing to them because God is bringing them in the way. Bringing them as humble as a little child.

It is as I believe effectually applied but and then the warfare of those that are the receipants of it to deny their selves.... their outer nature.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. we believe in Christ because of the working of his mighty power. We were quickened by his Spirit and made alive in Christ and that is why we believe. There was a change made in me that cause me to put my faith in CHrist. It was because of him the author and finisher of my faith that I put it in him and am converted. The regenerated cease from their labours and trust in CHrist. That is his effectual working on his people given to him by the Father and made alive by the HolyGhost that are converted to the Truth.

 

DHK,

You are repeating this falsehood, I am not sure why.

Then you follow with this;

you say;
The unsaved man does not understand the Word of God because he does not have the Holy Spirit.... then you say this passage does sspeak of salvation?

This is where you error. Death is seperation.....but it permeates the whole spirit of man [spiritually]. The scriptures says he is unable, not able, not willing,......you say he can and is indeed willing, you say look at me I did it...as if you did not need God to work in you or make you willing.

 

dhk

I do not agree with it because it disagrees with scripture.

To be carnally minded is death. A christian..a biblical christian is spiritually minded. romans 8:6

I just did Rom8:6

okay I will do that again if you like...

Jesus taught this....because you cannot hear my word

Jesus again DHK

 

Both Cals and Arms can have that confidence my brother, as Bible full of assurances verses to those of us now in Christ!

 

I am no New Age Theology, I am of the Old School Baptist. They have a long history. I believe in the ressurection of the just and unjust and the joys of the righteous and the punishment of the wicked will be eternal.

Consider 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 3:9We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

It is the outer man, natural man of the flesh that sins, But we are born of the Spirit and that is the inner man that is with out sin. So we are to keep our outer man in subjection to the innerman. We are to walk after the Spirit and not the flesh.
Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. So with out Christ in us. That is being born again of his Spirit we can do nothing. We are dead...Separated from God. That is a work of God alone that makes the gospel have an affect on us because we then have the mind of Christ and a carnality nature to deny. That is when preaching has an effect to convict and convert us to the truth and the truth sets us free. Because we can hear and see, that is we can understand and preceive. Proverbs 20:12 The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the Lord hath made even both of them. we would not see or hear without the new birth.

1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. If you confessed it is because you already had God in you... The Spirit.
1 John 5:1 Whosoever Believeth Christ is born of God:.... If you believe it is because you were already born of the Spirit that bloweth like the wind.

Proverbs 16:1 The preperations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.
Psalm 65:4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee,....

I am not of the New Age movement!

 

And I reiterate, you have just presented the strongest argument for regeneration before conversion. I agree with you, 'God would never give a spiritual gift of the fruit of the Spirit to the unregenerate.'

Well put. Those who have faith have been regenerated.

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36

.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24

... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47

It shows that life precedes belief. If you were to persuade one to believe in Christ, well, the Spirit's already been there and made that person alive so that they could believe. Note, it doesn't say he that believes will get eternal life; it says he that believes has it already.

Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4:6

Thus I conclude you have resorted to smear tactics and lies in an attempt to discredit what the Old Baptists have taught for centuries. There's not an iota of truth in this.

More lies and false accusations. I do affirm that regeneration does take place before salvation, but not that God gives any spiritual gifts to the dead. Even the OLD Southern Baptists used to make a clear distinction between regeneration and gospel conversion as the Primitives and Old Regulars still do today:

http://www.founders.org/journal/fj02/article2.html

Excerpts:

"In many Christian circles today experiencing "regeneration" (or "being born again") is simply something that happens when a person "makes a decision to accept Jesus Christ into his heart as personal Savior." Now it is certainly true that Jesus is the Savior, and that he saves sinners on a personal level. However, the idea that the experience of regeneration is a decision which every sinner ought to make and indeed every sinner can make is an idea which is seriously defective."

"James P. Boyce (first president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, in Louisville, Kentucky): "It is not strange, therefore, that they [i.e. regeneration and conversion] are often confounded. Yet, after all, the Scriptures also teach that regeneration is the work of God, changing the heart of man by his sovereign will, while conversion is that act of man turning towards God with the new inclination thus given to his heart" (Abstract of Systematic Theology, p. 374)."

"John A. Broadus (distinguished professor of New Testament and successor to Boyce at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary): "1. Q. What is meant by the word regeneration? A. Regeneration is God's causing a person to be born again. 9. Q. Does faith come before the new birth? A. No, it is the new heart that truly repents and believes" (taken from Broadus' A Catechism of Bible Teaching, reprinted in A Baptist Treasury, pp. 67-68)."

"John L. Dagg (first writing Southern Baptist theologian; president of Mercer University in Georgia): "In our natural state we are totally depraved. No inclination to holiness exists in the carnal heart; and no holy act can be performed, or service to God rendered, until the heart is changed. This change, it is the office of the Holy Spirit to effect. . . . But, in his own time and manner, God, the Holy Spirit, makes the word effectual in producing a new affection in the soul: and, when the first movement of love to God exists, the first throb of spiritual life commences" (A Manual of Theology, pp. 277, 279)."

"B. H. Carroll (founder and first president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas): "The true scriptural position [concerning regeneration] is this: There is, first of all, a direct influence of the Holy Spirit on the passive spirit of the sinner, quickening him or making him sensitive to the preaching of the Word. In this the sinner is passive. But he is not a subject of the new birth without contrition, repentance and faith. In exercising these he is active. Yet even his contrition is but a response to the Spirit's conviction, and the exercise of his repentance is but a response to the Spirit's conviction, and the exercise of his repentance and faith are but responses to the antecedent spiritual graces of repentance and faith." Carroll goes on to state that "repentance and faith are fruits of regeneration" (An Interpretation of the English Bible, Volume 4, p. 287)."

"The truth concerning the Bible doctrine of regeneration is the same today as it was when God the Holy Spirit taught it to the inspired writers of Holy Scriptures, and as it was understood by our Baptist forefathers who labored to the glory of God in the name of Jesus Christ within the confines of the Southern Baptist denomination. But then, that should not surprise us, because truth does not change. If the rank and file of Southern Baptists today do not embrace and impart the Bible doctrine of regeneration as set forth in this brief survey, then it must be either that they have not been taught or that they refuse to be taught."

"Those who have not been taught need to be instructed. We must do all we can to teach this glorious truth to them for two reasons: 1) Their spiritual well-being depends upon a right understanding of this truth. 2) The task of mission and evangelism cannot truly advance apart from a proper understanding of this truth. Those, however, who refuse to be instructed in this way need to be identified as having forsaken the biblical and historic Southern Baptist understanding of this essential doctrine. Whether in the pulpit, the class room, the agency administrative office, or the trustee board room, it must be acknowledged that there has been a violation of doctrinal integrity when men (and/or women) teach an aberration of this vital subject concerning the new birth."

Never have I said faith is given to the dead. My position is correct and there is nothing new about it.

 

15 He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven. Mt 16

Where is this 'intellectual knowledge' you refer to in the above passage? What intellectual knowledge was involved with Christ being revealed to Peter? None.

 

pardon me, but isn't it the biblical model that regeration/faith appear to happen at same time, or else so close hard to see any difference?
Like flip side of same coin?

Don't some hold also that regeneration can happen, like in infants, and can take years to fullymanifest itself as saving faith?

 

So? What? How much time elapsed between Gen 12:1 and Gen 15:6? It's regeneration first, then TRUE conversion.

I beg to differ, it shows that head knowledge has ZILCH to do with the birth from above; “flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven”.

Of course Peter was regenerated long before that, if the truth be known, long before Christ called him, but it wasn't until that moment, when it pleased God, that Peter uttered those words, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God", that showed his conversion. If this was not significant, why did Christ ask, “Who do you say that I am?” It's regeneration first, then TRUE conversion.

You persist with this silly insinuation that I'm saying that God gives faith to the unregenerate. I've never even come close to insinuating that. The topic of the OP is perseverance of the Saints or eternal security of the believer, which you yourself derailed with your statement in post #3, “I don't believe in regeneration before salvation”. Why didn't you just start a thread on that topic? We've yet to discuss the topic of Perseverance of the Saints.

 

One of the evidences of a genuine saving faith is perseverance in that faith. If one does not persevere, he never had a genuine saving faith to begin with. Thus, one cannot lose what He never had (1 John 2:19).

The warnings in scripture are about self deception. We look at the evidences, or the fruit.

If you are from the foreseen faith club, here's some food for thought.

"5th. From the Arminian doctrine of conditional election, must flow this distinction, admitted by many Wesleyans. Those who God foresaw would believe and repent, He thereupon elected to adoption. But all Arminians believe that an adopted believer may "fall from grace." Hence, the smaller number, who God foresaw would persevere in gospel grace, unto death, He thereupon elected to eternal life. And the persons elected to eternal life on foresight of their perseverance, are not identical with those elected to adoption on foresight of their faith. But now, if the former are, in the omniscience of God, elected to eternal life on foresight of their perseverance, then they must be certain to persevere. We have here, therefore, the doctrine of the perseverance of this class of the elect."Dabney