quantumfaith
Active Member
That is an opinion. I will respect your opinion. I don't believe it is a Biblical opinon.
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
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That is an opinion. I will respect your opinion. I don't believe it is a Biblical opinon.
The Bible teaches that man is morally corrupt (Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18) and dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1) and spiritually blind (1Corinthians 2:14).
However the Bible does not teach that man cannot respond to the Gospel.
The Bible teaches that Christ gives light to every man (John 1:9), that he draws all men to himself (John12:32), that he convicts men through the Holy Spirit (John 16:8). God calls men to salvation through the gospel (2 Thessalonians 2:14), and He has ordained that the gospel be preached to every creature (Mark 16:15).
But continually the scripture teaches that we are to believe unto eternal life, not the other way around.God quickens the dead, So sure faith is given to them that are regenerate. One believing in the gospel is evidence of eternal life.
Those who perish do so because the refused the truth, not because God refused to give them the truth.Now as said earlier in Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: by Faith, we believe.... but how do we and not others? Is it of our will or our own choice?
The gospel is not mentioned in this text. The "deep things of God" are being discussion (vs. 10). Even the 'brethren' in the church of Corinth were called "natural/carnal" men that couldn't receive these things. Those walking in the flesh can't understand the deep spiritual truths of God that only those who walk in the spirit can understand, even if they are church brethren. That is the lesson of the apostle in this passage. Not that the lost can't understand the clear powerful gospel appeal to be reconciled.Well the bible says in 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. So without being regenerated by the Spirit we will not receive the gospel.
The Jews ran after and wanted salvation through the law more than any group of people, and Paul was simply showing that its not through their desire and effort in pursuit of salvation by the law that will get them saved, but it is faith alone. As Paul summarizes that chapter saying:In Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
Humble yourself and you will be exalted.Well how is it that we are born again. Because we did what?
Yes, but notice it is OUR faith, not his. We must believe, whether that is effectually applied or freely chosen is the point of debate. And since Jesus rebukes men for having little or no faith I would say it's our choice, otherwise he would have rebuked God for not giving it.You see Christ is the author and finisher of our faith.
Our will or our own choice? Yes, we are given the choice whether or not to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved," as Paul put it to the Philippian jailor. If that wasn't true why would Paul give that choice to the jailor?God quickens the dead, So sure faith is given to them that are regenerate. One believing in the gospel is evidence of eternal life. Now as said earlier in Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: by Faith, we believe.... but how do we and not others? Is it of our will or our own choice?
This verse is routinely taken out of context. The entire passage here is speaking of the illumination of the Holy Spirit. The unsaved man does not understand the Word of God because he does not have the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, dwelling in us, illuminates our minds, giving us understanding in God's Word. That is the subject here. Why take it out of its context and try to make it say something it doesn't.Well the bible says in 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. So without being regenerated by the Spirit we will not receive the gospel.
In Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
And how is a man quickened?We know by nature we were the children of wrath even as others. SO outside of us being quickened we are just natural men.
Believers have carnal minds as well. Paul called the believers at Corinth carnal in 1Cor.3:1-4. They were carnal. James calls the brethren carnal. Not only were they carnal, they were worldly. Being worldly he says that they were "the enemies of God." (James 4:4) Can a believer be the enemy of God? Yes. If they are a friend of the world, then they are the enemy of God, according to James 4:4. They have committed spiritual adultery. It is the same as you cheating on your wife. As you would have to reconcile yourself to your wife, the believer would need to reconcile himself to God--repenting of his sin of worldliness to restore him back to fellowship. He is still God's child, but out of fellowship. That is the carnal Christian.We just had carnal minds which were enmity towards God. That was our state before being born again of the Spirit.
Well how is it that we are born again. Because we did what? Well John 3:8 says The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
When I was saved, I was not passive. I trusted Christ and he saved me. Belief is an action word. It comes from the heart. I prayed, and it was a heartfelt prayer that God heard. Salvation is no mystical, esoteric, gnostic, metaphysical experience.The creature was passive in this, The wind blew where it listeth.
But continually the scripture teaches that we are to believe unto eternal life, not the other way around.
John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Those who perish do so because the refused the truth, not because God refused to give them the truth.
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. - 2 Thess 2:10
The gospel is not mentioned in this text. The "deep things of God" are being discussion (vs. 10). Even the 'brethren' in the church of Corinth were called "natural/carnal" men that couldn't receive these things. Those walking in the flesh can't understand the deep spiritual truths of God that only those who walk in the spirit can understand, even if they are church brethren. That is the lesson of the apostle in this passage. Not that the lost can't understand the clear powerful gospel appeal to be reconciled.
The Jews ran after and wanted salvation through the law more than any group of people, and Paul was simply showing that its not through their desire and effort in pursuit of salvation by the law that will get them saved, but it is faith alone. As Paul summarizes that chapter saying:
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."
The debate of that day wasn't Cal vs. Arm; it was Jew vs. Gentile and that is what Paul is clearly addressing in this chapter.
This surely would have to be done by God first taking out their stoney heart and giving them a heart of flesh. Revealing the truth of Salvation that it is of Christ to an undeserving sinner and it would be those he quickened to understand their condition and are no longer blind to desire this wouldn't you think? and therefore Christ is appealing to them because God is bringing them in the way. Bringing them as humble as a little child.Humble yourself and you will be exalted.
It is as I believe effectually applied but and then the warfare of those that are the receipants of it to deny their selves.... their outer nature.Yes, but notice it is OUR faith, not his. We must believe, whether that is effectually applied or freely chosen is the point of debate. And since Jesus rebukes men for having little or no faith I would say it's our choice, otherwise he would have rebuked God for not giving it.
You are repeating this falsehood, I am not sure why.Believers have carnal minds as well. Paul called the believers at Corinth carnal in 1Cor.3:1-4. They were carnal. James calls the brethren carnal. Not only were they carnal, they were worldly. Being worldly he says that they were "the enemies of God." (James 4:4) Can a believer be the enemy of God? Yes. If they are a friend of the world, then they are the enemy of God, according to James 4:4. They have committed spiritual adultery. It is the same as you cheating on your wife. As you would have to reconcile yourself to your wife, the believer would need to reconcile himself to God--repenting of his sin of worldliness to restore him back to fellowship. He is still God's child, but out of fellowship. That is the carnal Christian.
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you say;Well the bible says in 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. So without being regenerated by the Spirit we will not receive the gospel.
This verse is routinely taken out of context. The entire passage here is speaking of the illumination of the Holy Spirit. The unsaved man does not understand the Word of God because he does not have the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, dwelling in us, illuminates our minds, giving us understanding in God's Word. That is the subject here. Why take it out of its context and try to make it say something it doesn't.
How do you account for the many testimonies of those who got saved simply by reading a tract, or even by reading the Bible on their own? The statement is a general statement regarding doctrine. It does not speak of salvation.
Your definition of dead is no doubt what leads you astray in your theology.
This is where you error. Death is seperation.....but it permeates the whole spirit of man [spiritually]. The scriptures says he is unable, not able, not willing,......you say he can and is indeed willing, you say look at me I did it...as if you did not need God to work in you or make you willing.The definition of "dead" in the Bible is simply "separation." Man is separated from God spiritually. To be made alive he must be reconciled to God. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. It happens at the time of salvation, the same time that regeneration happens. It is sin that separates a man from God. That is spiritual death. Death is always separation in the Bible. It is NOT lifelessness.
No, be accurate in your assessment. I am repeating something that you don't agree with. It is not false at all. I have backed it up with Scripture. If it is false you would be able to refute it with Scripture, scripture not taken out of its context. But you haven't done this.DHK,
You are repeating this falsehood, I am not sure why.
I said it does not speak of salvation, correct. Where in 1Cor.2:11-15 does Paul speak of salvation?? He doesn't. He is not speaking of salvation. The concluding verse of that passage says this:Then you follow with this;
you say;
The unsaved man does not understand the Word of God because he does not have the Holy Spirit.... then you say this passage does not speak of salvation
That is your opinion, but that is not what the Scriptures say. If they say that why didn't you post them and demonstrate how they say that? Does Jesus or Paul give commands that cannot be kept?This is where you error. Death is seperation.....but it permeates the whole spirit of man [spiritually]. The scriptures says he is unable, not able, not willing,......you say he can and is indeed willing, you say look at me I did it...as if you did not need God to work in you or make you willing.
No, be accurate in your assessment. I am repeating something that you don't agree with
I just did Rom8:6If it is false you would be able to refute it with Scripture, scripture not taken out of its context. But you haven't done this.
This is where you error. Death is seperation.....but it permeates the whole spirit of man [spiritually]. The scriptures says he is unable, not able, not willing,......you say he can and is indeed willing, you say look at me I did it...as if you did not need God to work in you or make you willing.
That is your opinion, but that is not what the Scriptures say. If they say that why didn't you post them and demonstrate how they say that?
Jesus taught this....because you cannot hear my word43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Jesus again DHK47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41I receive not honour from men.
42But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
Our will or our own choice? Yes, we are given the choice whether or not to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved," as Paul put it to the Philippian jailor. If that wasn't true why would Paul give that choice to the jailor?
wasn't that though the result of the jailor being "convicted" by the Holy Spirit by what he saw in the jail?
We don't know that the Lord did not do a work of grace at that time , do we?
This verse is routinely taken out of context. The entire passage here is speaking of the illumination of the Holy Spirit. The unsaved man does not understand the Word of God because he does not have the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, dwelling in us, illuminates our minds, giving us understanding in God's Word. That is the subject here. Why take it out of its context and try to make it say something it doesn't.
How do you account for the many testimonies of those who got saved simply by reading a tract, or even by reading the Bible on their own? The statement is a general statement regarding doctrine. It does not speak of salvation.
Again though, the Word of God has power to save souls, as the Holy Spirit minister to us thru it, the agent used by Him to waken/quicken us in order to be able to receive and believe on jesus Christ...
It was a sunny day today; the temperature 72 F., and nothing to complain about. That is God's mercy, and it was given to the just and the unjust alike.
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And how is a man quickened?
by faith, believing on the Lord jesus as saviour ..
How is a man dead?
Born with inherited sin/original sin from Adam/sin nature
What is your definition of dead?
Estarnged from relation with God
Because we are sinners, we cannot have a spiritual relationship with God in our selves...
Unless the Holy Spirit convicts/regenerates makes it possible to believe on Christ though....
Your definition of dead is no doubt what leads you astray in your theology. The definition of "dead" in the Bible is simply "separation." Man is separated from God spiritually. To be made alive he must be reconciled to God. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. It happens at the time of salvation, the same time that regeneration happens. It is sin that separates a man from God. That is spiritual death. Death is always separation in the Bible. It is NOT lifelessness.
Believers have carnal minds as well. Paul called the believers at Corinth carnal in 1Cor.3:1-4. They were carnal. James calls the brethren carnal. Not only were they carnal, they were worldly. Being worldly he says that they were "the enemies of God." (James 4:4) Can a believer be the enemy of God? Yes. If they are a friend of the world, then they are the enemy of God, according to James 4:4. They have committed spiritual adultery. It is the same as you cheating on your wife. As you would have to reconcile yourself to your wife, the believer would need to reconcile himself to God--repenting of his sin of worldliness to restore him back to fellowship. He is still God's child, but out of fellowship. That is the carnal Christian.
True.. BUT someone in just "flesh" nature , sinner, would not be able to have a relationship with God, that is where the saving work of election by God come into picture
That simply tells of the mysterious operation of the Holy Spirit. In some places we have great revivals. In other places we don't. We pray for the Spirit to move and work. That is what Jesus was describing. What you are describing is that the New Birth is some mystic experience. It sounds like New Age theology.
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When I was saved, I was not passive. I trusted Christ and he saved me. Belief is an action word. It comes from the heart. I prayed, and it was a heartfelt prayer that God heard. Salvation is no mystical, esoteric, gnostic, metaphysical experience.
I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. The emphasis is on I know. I am confident.
Death is simply separation from God. One who is not a "Biblical Christian" as you define it, "spiritual," is obviously "carnal." That is the plain teaching of Scripture where Paul calls the believers in the church of Corinth carnal believers (1Cor.3:1-4). See also James 4:4; Rom.12:2; 1John 2:15,16.dhk
I do not agree with it because it disagrees with scripture.
To be carnally minded is death. A christian..a biblical christian is spiritually minded. romans 8:6
You refuted nothing. You quoted half of one verse taking it out of its context. Read a couple verses down:I just did Rom8:6
The Pharisees could not hear his word because they were obstinate and refused to hear his word. They were bent on killing him. That was their goal and their choice made out of their own free will. They could not and would not hear his word.okay I will do that again if you like...
[/B] Jesus taught this....because you cannot hear my word
Not a hard concept here. His disciples understood what Christ was saying: they were saved. The Pharisees didn't; they were unsaved.Jesus again DHK
That simply tells of the mysterious operation of the Holy Spirit. In some places we have great revivals. In other places we don't. We pray for the Spirit to move and work. That is what Jesus was describing. What you are describing is that the New Birth is some mystic experience. It sounds like New Age theology.
I believe you.I am no New Age Theology, I am of the Old School Baptist. They have a long history. I believe in the ressurection of the just and unjust and the joys of the righteous and the punishment of the wicked will be eternal.
That is the goal of the believer. Do you sin? Yes. Every believer sins.Consider 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 3:9We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
It is the outer man, natural man of the flesh that sins, But we are born of the Spirit and that is the inner man that is with out sin. So we are to keep our outer man in subjection to the innerman. We are to walk after the Spirit and not the flesh.
You are not making sense here. What is being born of his Spirit? You are speaking of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit on one hand, sanctification on the other, and then equating it all to being born again. I am sorry, but that doesn't work.Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. So with out Christ in us. That is being born again of his Spirit we can do nothing.
True enough that once we are saved we must deny our carnal nature--deny it daily. In 1Cor.15:31 Paul said "I die daily." Every day he denied his carnal nature--he put it to death. It was a daily struggle, and he describes it in Romans 7.We are dead...Separated from God. That is a work of God alone that makes the gospel have an affect on us because we then have the mind of Christ and a carnality nature to deny.
The truth sets us free from the condemnation of sin.That is when preaching has an effect to convict and convert us to the truth and the truth sets us free. Because we can hear and see, that is we can understand and preceive. Proverbs 20:12 The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the Lord hath made even both of them. we would not see or hear without the new birth.
Not true. I am born again because I have believed. Regeneration and salvation take place at the same time. You have no biblical evidence to the contrary.1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. If you confessed it is because you already had God in you... The Spirit.
1 John 5:1 Whosoever Believeth Christ is born of God:.... If you believe it is because you were already born of the Spirit that bloweth like the wind.
I don't believe you are either. The Scripture you quoted above has nothing to do with regeneration or salvation. It is off topic. One is born again not because of some mystical experience, but because they have put their faith in Jesus Christ.Proverbs 16:1 The preperations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.
Psalm 65:4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee,....
I am not of the New Age movement!
You have just presented the strongest argument for regeneration before conversion......
No I haven't. In fact if you believe that it would be directly against all that the Bible teaches concerning soteriology.
Here again is what I said:
....Faith in the Bible is presented as: 1. a spiritual gift, and 2. a fruit of the spirit. Either way, God would never give a spiritual gift of the fruit of the Spirit to the unregenerate. That is an unbiblical stand, one that I could never agree with....
Thus I conclude that you believe:
Unsaved people mimicking God's gifts such as Simon Magnus who wanted it for profit, are actually regenerated. BTW that is where we get the term "simony" from.
Every "faith healer" today such as Benny Hinn claims to have faith from God. According to you that is proof that they are regenerated. Benny Hinn believes there are nine persons in the trinity.
Regeneration does not take place before salvation. That is not a biblical concept and cannot be backed up with Scripture. Neither can the concept that God gives faith to the unregenerate. This is such an unbiblical concept I am floored to hear such a belief coming from Baptists. Does God also give love (agape), illumination, spiritual discernment, and other such gifts to the unregenerate. No, of course not. But you have set this precedent that He does. If he gives one spiritual gift to the unregenerate why not give them all to the unsaved? This is totally ridiculous.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (Galatians 5:22-23)
--If faith is given to the unregenerate then why not all the fruit of the Spirit. Be consistent. Your position is wrong!
Do you believe it is the intellectual knowledge of the gospel which convinces the man to put his (intrinsic ability) faith in Christ?
Must have that intellectual knowledge, believe it from the heart, and at the same time be convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit......
Come now kyredneck. This was more than half way through Christ's ministry. It was Peter's great confession of faith found in Mat. 16. Jesus chose them as disciples way back in Mat. chapter 4. A lot had happened between chapters 4 and 18. Are you suggesting that they still had not been regenerated by the time we get to chapter 16. This is not in the context of regeneration, so why even mention it? God does not give faith to the unregenerate. That is the point under discussion.15 He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven. Mt 16
Where is this 'intellectual knowledge' you refer to in the above passage? What intellectual knowledge was involved with Christ being revealed to Peter? None.
Come now kyredneck. This was more than half way through Christ's ministry. It was Peter's great confession of faith found in Mat. 16. Jesus chose them as disciples way back in Mat. chapter 4. A lot had happened between chapters 4 and 18. Are you suggesting that they still had not been regenerated by the time we get to chapter 16. This is not in the context of regeneration, so why even mention it? God does not give faith to the unregenerate. That is the point under discussion.
Come now kyredneck. This was more than half way through Christ's ministry. It was Peter's great confession of faith found in Mat. 16. Jesus chose them as disciples way back in Mat. chapter 4. A lot had happened between chapters 4 and 18.
Are you suggesting that they still had not been regenerated by the time we get to chapter 16. This is not in the context of regeneration, so why even mention it?
God does not give faith to the unregenerate. That is the point under discussion.
That is not what I said, and not the Calvinist position. Your position is against Biblical teaching--that God gives faith to the unregenerate, that is so that they can be regenerated. God doe not give faith (a spiritual gift or the fruit of the Spirit) to any unsaved person that they may be saved. You are changing your position, altering it because you have to. I have pointed out that your theology is wrong so your are skirting the issue and slightly altering it.And I reiterate, you have just presented the strongest argument for regeneration before conversion. I agree with you, 'God would never give a spiritual gift of the fruit of the Spirit to the unregenerate.'
Well put. Those who have faith have been regenerated.
The faith doesn't come from God. God doesn't force-feed the unsaved with his faith.He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36
The faith doesn't come from God. God never forced anyone into salvation. The Muslims believe in forced conversions......He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24
Same as above.... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47
Yes, that is exactly what it says. Why do you try and alter God's Word?It shows that life precedes belief. If you were to persuade one to believe in Christ, well, the Spirit's already been there and made that person alive so that they could believe. Note, it doesn't say he that believes will get eternal life; it says he that believes has it already.
Taken out of context. This has nothing to do with regeneration.Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4:6
There is not one iota of truth that God gives faith to the unregenerate.Thus I conclude you have resorted to smear tactics and lies in an attempt to discredit what the Old Baptists have taught for centuries. There's not an iota of truth in this.
This wasn't a false accusation. This was a statement of belief--my belief that regeneration cannot precede salvation, and the unbiblical consequences that happen if it does. Faith is a spiritual gift in the Bible. You say that God does not give spiritual gifts to the unsaved (dead), but then affirm that he gives them faith. You contradict yourself. I don't care what the difference is between Old Southern Baptists and Old Regulars. What matters to me is what the Bible teaches. God does not give faith--spiritual gifts or the fruit of the Spirit to the unsaved, and that is a fact. It would only follow logic to say that if he did (as you affirm that he gives faith to the unregenerate faith), that why would he not give all the rest of the unregenerate spiritual gifts as listed in 1Cor.12? Does he? Then why would he give faith? It also is a spiritual gift.More lies and false accusations. I do affirm that regeneration does take place before salvation, but not that God gives any spiritual gifts to the dead. Even the OLD Southern Baptists used to make a clear distinction between regeneration and gospel conversion as the Primitives and Old Regulars still do today:
"In many Christian circles today experiencing "regeneration" (or "being born again") is simply something that happens when a person "makes a decision to accept Jesus Christ into his heart as personal Savior." Now it is certainly true that Jesus is the Savior, and that he saves sinners on a personal level. However, the idea that the experience of regeneration is a decision which every sinner ought to make and indeed every sinner can make is an idea which is seriously defective."
So the author of this quote doesn't believe in biblical salvation?? Is he saved? Has he, as a sinner, made a decision to trust Christ as his Savior? If he hasn't, then I doubt if he saved. That is what the Bible commands us to do--not to sit idly by and let the Spirit mystically, esoterically, and somehow in some new age fashion regenerate us without any faith on the part of the believer. The author's point of view is hogwash.
Yes you have. You maintain that it is given to the unregenerate by God in order for them to be saved. Faith must come before salvation, and must be given by God. That is your position, correct?Never have I said faith is given to the dead. My position is correct and there is nothing new about it.
or eternal security of the believer.
Help me understand your position here.