You just don't UNDERSTAND!

[Skandelon]

Here is where I just stop dead & read with amazement... "If you hold to the doctrine of original Sin" . How can you question that? Thats the fall of man! * Adam willfully transgressed the law of God and therefore plunged himself and his posterity into a state of guilt and corruption (Rom. 5 : 12-19) .That now man in his natural state is dead in trespasses and sins (Eph. 2: 1) and is unable to recover himself by an act of his own "free-will" (John 1: 13; John 6: 44; Rom. 3: 10-20; Rom.9: 16). To put it simply, the essential teaching of the doctrine of total depravity is this: Human beings have no spiritual life—sin has killed them. We are all dead spiritually and will eventually die physically.

This doctrine has been upheld by many very intelligent people over many years. But here you are telling me "IF" All the flags go flying in the air. Then when I take a look at my own testimony, it just rings clear & cements it. For me there is no "If". Im convinced.

There is a distinction that needs to be drawn between the doctrine of Original Sin, which I and most non-Cals would affirm, and the doctrine of "Total Depravity" which I and some non-Cals would refute.

To affirm one is not a blanket affirmation of the other. Admitting that all men are born in need of a savior and enemies of God, is not equal to affirming the concept that God's appeal to be reconciled to Him is somehow insufficient to bring reconciliation.

 

[Old Union Brother]

EWF said:

when I take a look at my own testimony, it just rings clear & cements it. For me there is no "If". Im convinced.

Amen!

I was lost ruined and undone with out God or his Son.....A dead man walking around....Blind, deaf and unable to speak. He resurrected me to walk in the newness of life. He gave me eyes to see His works, ears to hear his word and a tongue to speak the wonders of his grace.

 

[Skandelon]

EWF said: Amen!

I was lost ruined and undone with out God or his Son.....A dead man walking around....Blind, deaf and unable to speak. He resurrected me to walk in the newness of life. He gave me eyes to see His works, ears to hear his word and a tongue to speak the wonders of his grace.

Where you born blind, deaf and unable to speak?

 

[Old Union Brother]

Skandelon:

All I'm going to say is that when I was a sinner I could not see the things of God, I couldn't hear the things of God, and I couldn't speak of his grace. You can take that ever how you want too.... I have full assurance in my experience of Grace. For as it is written:

(1Pe 3:15) But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

(1Pe 3:16) Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

The hope that is in me is Christ Jesus. Him being crucified and and shedding the atoning blood on the cross and being resurrected for a lost sinner like me. I am so thankful for his Grace and mercy because if I had got Justice I would have been cut down and be bound for a lake of fire. I was like the Psalmist:
(Psa 40:2) He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.

 

[Skandelon]

According to scripture rather than the perception of what you experienced, we know that men aren't born blind, deaf and unable to understand...

Acts 28:26 " 'Go to this people and say, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving." 27 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

Only those who are hardened/calloused are blind, deaf and unable to understand, "OTHERWISE they can see, hear, understand and repent." This is not a condition from birth, but clearly something they became or grew into over a period of time. The Jews were hardened and thus blind and deaf, but in contrast to their condition the Gentiles "will listen."

If all are born in the same condition (deaf/blind) then why would scripture make this distinction?

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast, post #18 [edit - personal attacks are not permitted].

Interesting.....[edit - personal attacks are not permitted]. Rather than engage the post you do a little drive -by, post usually with an accuasation,like

BFL, I'm sorry that you are confused so you better stick to your one version and go to a church that only uses one. Myself, my church, and many others aren't confusedFor those who continue to doubt afterward, I will send them to you so that you can be confused together.

The scripture that Allan quoted is adequate to refute any argument put forth by those who would have yield to a yoke of slavery.

The Pharisees certainly would never allow an evil Easter Egg Hunt at their church. They love to suck the joy out of life. But, for us who enjoy our freedom in Christ it's a great opportunity to minister to children in the community and to tell them about Jesus.

Did God not know that the earthquake in Japan would occur? (Of course not!) From eternity's perspective God has always known that in 2011 Japan would suffer a tragic event. Did that mean that He specifically caused it? I think that,'s where Luke is going with this? And, if so, once again, he and I are going to disagree.

Anyone who differs with you ,you snipe at and call names's. I answer part of the original post, you do not like it,so you call me names.
I answer your attack in the Lords day post and you dis-appear.
If you want to interact, disagree, debate....fine. Try to do so scripturally.

 

[Iconoclast]

So, by that logic then I could properly deduce that you don't really understand "Arminian" truth, right?

What about scholars outside this forum? None of them really understand you, uh? Why not, do you suppose?

Where does the scripture teach this? Romans 1 teaches the knew and understood the divine nature and eternal qualities of God and it was for this very reason that their rejection of God made them "without excuse."

I NEVER said that. If you will go back to that post you will see what I actually said. I challenge you to copy and paste it here in its entirety and in doing so, stop and read it. You will see that I believe the HS works through means (preaching, scripture, church) to bring understanding and that scripture never reveals that the HS simply turns on some kind of an internal light switch to make someone understand something they didn't understand before.

skan....

So, by that logic then I could properly deduce that you don't really understand "Arminian" truth, right?

That would be correct. It does not match what I see in scripture at all,in fact
the exalting of unsaved man, and his supposed abilities is opposed to scripture. I try to imagine what a person is thinking when they hold these false ideas.
I think they are sincere,trying to make sure that everything is what "they would define" as fair when they say things like:God would never, or My God would never; elect, decree, ordain, destroy, punish,predestinate.

What about scholars outside this forum?

like who? give a real example and I will demonstrate to you what I posted in 18 is so.

Where does the scripture teach this? Romans 1 teaches the knew and understood the divine nature and eternal qualities of God and it was for this very reason that their rejection of God made them "without excuse."

Romans one teaches that all natural men are "truth suppressors".....they need new birth!

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools

They are without excuse. They willing supress true knowledge...that tells me that they cannot understand it accurately at all.

for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5For this they willingly are ignorant of

If they had God given understanding, they would repent and believe.
As it is, they invent humanistic philosophy, science, psychology.....to supress the true saving knowledge...so they have a man centered religion rather than God given....saving understanding of truth.

I NEVER said that. If you will go back to that post you will see what I actually said. I challenge you to copy and paste it here in its entirety and in doing so, stop and read it. You will see that I believe the HS works through means (preaching, scripture, church) to bring understanding and that scripture never reveals that the HS simply turns on some kind of an internal light switch to make someone understand something they didn't understand before.

[/QUOTE]
Yes skan,,, this is the post I was thinking of..Allan responded, and I agreed with Allan on this...
THe last part about the light switch.I think you need to explore that some more.

 

[Skandelon]

That would be correct. It does not match what I see in scripture at all,

There is a difference in believing it "doesn't match" and not even understanding the Arminian perspective, right?

the exalting of unsaved man, and his supposed abilities is opposed to scripture. I try to imagine what a person is thinking when they hold these false ideas.
I think they are sincere,trying to make sure that everything is what "they would define" as fair when they say things like:God would never, or My God would never; elect, decree, ordain, destroy, punish,predestinate.

If that is what you think we believe, you are right, you don't understand it.

like who? give a real example and I will demonstrate to you what I posted in 18 is so.

Any non-Calvinistic scholar... CS Lewis or Adam Clarke or Wesley? Did none of them really understand Calvinism? If not, why not? Did God just not grant them understanding?

They are without excuse. They willing supress true knowledge...that tells me that they cannot understand it accurately at all.

I noticed you neglected to quote the two verse in between the ones you quoted. Here let me:

19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Notice it says that his divine nature and eternal power has been "clearly seen" and "understood." In fact, that is why they are 'without excuse.' You view gives them the perfect excuse: "God didn't want me to be saved and thus didn't give me what I needed to even understand truth."

 

[Iconoclast]

Any non-Calvinistic scholar... CS Lewis or Adam Clarke or Wesley? Did none of them really understand Calvinism? If not, why not? Did God just not grant them understanding?

Have not read much of cs lewis.
Adam Clarke,Wesley......Some of these men concentrated on areas like sanctification ,and did not seem to have a mind for the systematics as much.This could be a reason. I have not read enough of these men to know or see why they failed to see these things.
I do know Wesley had some error in the direction of perfectionism which could have obscured His judgement.
Spurgeon spoke well of Him....
I have heard others be critical. When i do read someone like Wesley, or J.C. Ryle who struggled with the L..... I attempt to glean the best of their thoughts and not be critical of their defects..unless They are speaking against the truth of God.

Skan.....no man has all truth.The reformers, puritans, were helpful guides in many ways, but not inspired Apostles. I do not try and pit, one against another. If I read Owen, or Manton, or Calvin, I read critically weeding out what I perceive as error , yet look for truth that is clearly revealed.
I want to use them to point to Jesus...I do not read them to idolize the man.

A person who does not receive scriptural correction is a fool. Skan...as a baptist would you be willing to be corrected by a padeo baptist, if he could show that your view of the covenants was not according to scripture?
When you tell a padeo baptist that his view is error, are you being proud and arrogant? Or are you trying to urge him to re consider his position.

Awhile ago, I asked sag38 to offer scriptural ideas. There are many here who look to put a person or teaching down, but offer no scripture for their comments. I have requested the same from many who just make little snide remarks against calvinism..quantum, snow,WD,etc.
The idea of this kind of forum is to put forth ideas ,and allow others to agree or correct scripturally, hopefully to edification.
Some just attack the person 24 /7 .....that leads me to believe they consider the object of their attack to he heretical.....so they should be able to make a scriptural case. Without it their posts are without any value.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

affirming the concept that God's appeal to be reconciled to Him is somehow insufficient to bring reconciliation.

What appeal, there is no appeal. What does Total Depravity mean? It means you’re a lousy, stinking, no-good, dirty rotten sinner. It means you will do bad stuff and you like to do bad stuff. Doing bad stuff is one of your best things. You lie, cheat on your taxes, cheat on your wife, get all torqued-off at people, spread bad rumors, get angry at stupid things and take things that are not yours. It means that you are rude, vain, and selfish. It also means that you are capable of doing the worst things you can imagine…committing murder, adultery, and doing violent harm to others. This is all IN YOU and the odds that you will commit these horrible acts are extremely favorable.

 

[Skandelon]

What appeal, there is no appeal.

Are you sure about that?

2 Cor. 5:18 "All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God."

What does Total Depravity mean? It means you’re a lousy, stinking, no-good, dirty rotten sinner. It means you will do bad stuff and you like to do bad stuff. Doing bad stuff is one of your best things. You lie, cheat on your taxes, cheat on your wife, get all torqued-off at people, spread bad rumors, get angry at stupid things and take things that are not yours. It means that you are rude, vain, and selfish. It also means that you are capable of doing the worst things you can imagine…committing murder, adultery, and doing violent harm to others. This is all IN YOU and the odds that you will commit these horrible acts are extremely favorable.

That is actually the doctrine of Original Sin. Total Depravity takes it a step further by adding the unbiblical concept of "total inability" to respond to the appeal of God to be reconciled to Him, the powerful gospel message.

 

[Iconoclast]

Skandelon: I noticed you neglected to quote the two verse in between the ones you quoted. Here let me:

19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Notice it says that his divine nature and eternal power has been "clearly seen" and "understood." In fact, that is why they are 'without excuse.' You view gives them the perfect excuse: "God didn't want me to be saved and thus didn't give me what I needed to even understand truth."

they know there is a God by nature and conscience, but suppress the true knowledge in unrighteousness... this does not change anything.

 

[Skandelon]

they know there is a God by nature and conscience, but suppress the true knowledge in unrighteousness... this does not change anything.

Who suppressed the truth? God or them?

In Calvinism, God suppresses (hides) the truth from the reprobate from birth (see doctrine of Total Depravity). But the scripture teaches they know and understand the truth but reject (or suppress) it thus making them without excuse when the perish.

 

[Van]

Reply to Skandelon

I see this accusation from both side of discussions, but isn't there a clear distinction in someone who doesn't understand a truth and someone who understands but rejects it?

The same point can be made regarding ones understanding of the gospel. Some argue that only the elect can understand the gospel, but what is meant by that exactly?

Does that mean they really can't understand the clear words of the gospel appeal, or does it mean they just can't willingly follow once they do understand it?

Please expound.

The doctrine of total spiritual inability says every unregenerate natural person cannot understand the gospel. This is false doctrine. Jesus taught in Matthew 13 of four types of soil, and the first soil did indeed suffer from total spiritual inability and did not understand the gospel. But the other three soils did understand and respond in various degrees to the gospel. the second soil quickly accepted the gospel, and just as quickly turned away when difficulties arose because of the gospel. They had no "root" in themselves, and therefore traveled the path of least resistance. So the issue is not comprehension, but character.

1 Corinthians 3:1-3 teaches unregenerate men of flesh can understand the milk of the gospel, again demonstrating the doctrine of total spiritual inability is false doctrine.

Some Calvinists assert that spiritually dead people cannot respond, that they first must be "quickened" but they leave that term vague, because nobody is quickened until they are spiritually placed in Christ where they are made alive (quickened) together with Christ. Others assert regeneration before faith, which is demonstrated false by John 1:12-13 which says after a person believes, then they are given the right to be adopted as children of God. Calvinism reverses that sequence.

 

[Iconoclast]

Who suppressed the truth? God or them?

In Calvinism, God suppresses (hides) the truth from the reprobate from birth (see doctrine of Total Depravity). But the scripture teaches they know and understand the truth but reject (or suppress) it thus making them without excuse when the perish.

this is falsehood ....men surpress the truth not God.men know there is a God. the natural man cannot understand ...you say he can, scripture says he cannot.
You do not understand 1 cor2

 

[Skandelon]

this is falsehood ....men surpress the truth not God.

You say that as if they have some control over it. How does someone who is born without the ability to understand or receive spiritual truth suppress it? How does someone suppress something they don't know or understand?

Romans 1 CLEARLY teaches they KNEW and UNDERSTOOD the truth but chose to suppress it thus BECOMING calloused and "given over" to their defiled minds. They were born calloused and "given over."

men know there is a God

Its more than that. They know and understand his divine attributes and eternal qualities, which is why their rejection is "without excuse." By suggesting, as Calvinism does, that God has condemned most of mankind from birth without hope of understanding the truth of the gospel give them the perfect excuse.

the natural man cannot understand ...you say he can, scripture says he cannot.

He can't understand ON HIS OWN, but God sent Jesus, the scripture, apostles, preachers all of which proclaim the "power of God unto Salvation," the gospel truth. Had he not intervened in this way, then yes, you would be right, we would be without hope, which is what all those verses are talking about. They are talking about how we are natural enemies of God, but they never say that the appeal to be reconciled cannot be received.

You do not understand 1 cor2

Yes, do you understand the next few verses including 1 Cor 3, where the "brethren" are also referred to as being carnal/natural men who can't receive the same "spiritual things" he is speaking about?

 

[Iconoclast]

You say that as if they have some control over it. How does someone who is born without the ability to understand or receive spiritual truth suppress it? How does someone suppress something they don't know or understand?

They supress truth with false religion...a lie.....as it says in romans1

23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
King James Version (KJV)

Do you agree with this? that is why Paul wrote it.

He can't understand ON HIS OWN, but God sent Jesus, the scripture, apostles, preachers all of which proclaim the "power of God unto Salvation," the gospel truth. Had he not intervened in this way, then yes, you would be right, we would be without hope, which is what all those verses are talking about.

Yes.....rom10:9-15

Yes, do you understand the next few verses including 1 Cor 3, where the "brethren" are also referred to as being carnal/natural men who can't receive the same "spiritual things" he is speaking about?

No....you and dhk do not have this passage correct...

the brethren are not natural men.....they are behaving as natural men
the brethren are not carnal men.....they are behaving as carnal men

if a person is described as "cold as ice" does it mean they are ice?

1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

As unto...........this sets up the whole passage.
The brethren were acting.......out of character.Instead of behaving as mature spiritual christians,they were behaving [as] babes [as] carnal[as] natural men Until and unless you ,DHK, or anyone else understand this...you will
miss truth on this whole section.

3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

He was rebuking them.....not describing them.....
you are carnal[in this sin of sectarianism] you are walking as ...men[natural,unsaved men]

 

[Skandelon]

They supress truth with false religion...a lie.....as it says in romans1

I agree, but to suppress a truth you have to know it first, which as I showed they did as it was "clearly revealed" to them and the "knew and understood the eternal qualities and divine nature of God," which is what made them without excuse for suppressing it. In your view, they don't suppress it, they just never knew it. They were born deaf and blind and defiled. They weren't "given over" they didn't "become defiled" in your view, they were born that way.

25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Do you agree with this? that is why Paul wrote it.

Of course I agree with it. They CHANGED the truth, which they KNEW and UNDERSTOOD, into a lie. But you teach they didn't even know the truth to begin with, which is NOT supported.

I believe "God gave them up unto vile affections," where as you believe God gave up everyone in Adam and thus all are born given over to the vile affections without hope of ever being reconciled. It doesn't say they were born this way, it says they BECAME like this ONLY after they suppressed what they KNEW and UNDERSTOOD to be the true.

No....you and dhk do not have this passage correct...

the brethren are not natural men.....they are behaving as natural men
the brethren are not carnal men.....they are behaving as carnal men

That's not what the text says, but either way, Paul says they can't "receive" these things either, so clearly its not the revealed gospel appeal to which he is referring otherwise they wouldn't be brethren to begin with.

 

[Skandelon]

Are you sure about that?

2 Cor. 5:18 "All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God."


That is actually the doctrine of Original Sin. Total Depravity takes it a step further by adding the unbiblical concept of "total inability" to respond to the appeal of God to be reconciled to Him, the powerful gospel message.

The strongest points of one's argument are not typically reflected in the portion that his opponents address, but in the portions ignored.

 

[Skandelon]

The doctrine of total spiritual inability says every unregenerate natural person cannot understand the gospel. This is false doctrine. Jesus taught in Matthew 13 of four types of soil, and the first soil did indeed suffer from total spiritual inability and did not understand the gospel. But the other three soils did understand and respond in various degrees to the gospel.

Yeah, how does a corpse (as the Calvinists like to describe the natural man) respond well and then get choked out?

I can't help of the Monty Python movie's quote, "I'm not dead yet!" :laugh: