Does God STILL use "Signs and Wonders" To Confirm Gospel Today?

[Allan]

Can you help me understand why you believe such validation or qualification is necessary if the the "light switch" method is being employed?

Let me rephrase that for those who aren't privy to our former discussion: Why would God need to validate a messenger (or his message) if the secret inward work of the HS "enlightens" them to the truthfulness and gives them the needed understanding?

Because he uses various means externally while simultaneously working in the heart to 'reveal' the truth of the message of the one who is validated as God's messenger.

IOW - even to lost whom He isn't yet working on would want validation this person is indeed speaking on behalf of some divine entity.. so how would they know? This does not bring enlightenment as much as it does validation they are indeed speaking for or on behalf of another. This simply give greater credence to messenger than simply saying "I speak for God".

 

[JesusFan]

You know, I have no problem with that explanation because it has God working through his means EVERY TIME, rather than the concept that they can be separated. And that's where you and I probably part ways, because you don't think the HS is doing this internal working every time the means are employed, but only certain times here and there. Thus, the means do NOTHING. They accomplish nothing.

For example, let's look at two Jews during Paul's day, who both knew of Saul and his conversion to Paul. Both hate Christianity (just like Saul did) and were set against it (hardened you might say). But one of them starts to notice the new Gentile church down the street where the people are being healed and their lives are changing dramatically. He start getting more curious and watching more closely this new church and listening a bit more to Paul's teaching. He becomes envious of the Gentiles and their new lives and the excitement of their church and changes his mind and becomes a follower of Christ. The other remains in his rebellion. What was the difference? Envy provoked one will and not the other.

Now, according to Paul this envy could provoke their wills and lead them to be saved (Rom. 11:14). In other words, that envy could actually serve a purpose in softening their hearts and making them reconsider their views. But, according to Calvinism, ONLY the inward effectual work of God can do that. Why would Paul even bother mentioning things like envy or signs if they accomplish nothing? Why not say, "I make much of my ministry to the Gentiles because God has chosen to effectually call more of them at this time, but he might effectually call more of the Jews later." Why even speak of the effect of these persuasive outward means if they accomplish nothing?

The external "signs" are agents that God has chosen to work through in order to have the elect in Christ receive the actual new life provided for them in Jesus Christ...

And the Lord ALWAYS will have both internal/external happening, as God allows the person to get to place where he can actually rrepent and believe

You and I probably agree on just what the external things are able to do, the Gospel/Signs/wonders teaching etc...

cause someone to exercise saving faith in what they are hearing responding to the conviction from the Holy Spirit...

When we each received jesus Christ and became part of the redeemed, you and I both did EXACT same thing, heard.repented/believed/received the Saviour...
You would say you responded by making a free will choice to come to Him, i would say I could not chose to come to Him unless/until God allowd me to be in a state able to respond!

We are coming at this from the "moderate" positions for Armianism/calvinism, as you DO see that God does have 'a part" int he salvation experience, while I see that we still need to exercise faith to believe and complete the process of God saving his people thru the cross...
We are able to have reasonable discussions dialog because of that, unlike those of us in more "high" versions of Arm/cal!

 

[Skandelon]

Because he uses various means externally while simultaneously working in the heart to 'reveal' the truth of the message of the one who is validated as God's messenger.

So how can you distinguish the two? Could it not be that the outward means was simply having an inward effect? And since these means are "of God," the credit for the work is still His. For example, the means of teaching scripture is meant to 'reveal' that which is being taught, which is the intent of inward work of the HS as well. So, how can those two be distinct?

Should we conclude that someone who is taught scripture and doesn't accept it WASN'T worked on inwardly or that he freely chose to reject, or a combination of both?

It's like if you hit my hand with a hammer and inwardly that produced pain. No one would question the origin the pain. They certainly wouldn't speculate saying something like, "God works through the means of the hammer to produce the sensation of pain," as if those two things could be independent of each other. There is a clear cause/effect relationship between the means (cause) and the result (effect), yet it appears people want to speculate by adding an unseen force (true cause) but only if and when the result (effect) is positive. Make sense?

IOW - even to lost whom He isn't yet working on would want validation this person is indeed speaking on behalf of some divine entity.. so how would they know? This does not bring enlightenment as much as it does validation they are indeed speaking for or on behalf of another. This simply give greater credence to messenger than simply saying "I speak for God".

So, do I understand you correctly in saying that the signs validated the messengers as being from God to those who didn't believe their message was of God? How does that work?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I would like to recommend the book by Martyn Lloyd-Jones "Joy Unspeakable" .... He dedicates the book to the subject matter of the gifts of the HS. I recommend it!

Ciao

 

[TCassidy]

I would like to recommend the book by Martyn Lloyd-Jones "Joy Unspeakable" .... He dedicates the book to the subject matter of the gifts of the HS. I recommend it!

Ciao

Terrible book. Advocates a vile heresy that has been infecting churches for over 100 years.

 

[Allan]

Terrible book. Advocates a vile heresy that has been infecting churches for over 100 years.

I was going to say it, but since I am not reformed I would have been told I just didn't understand it and then laughed at. However.. I agree with you

 

[Iconoclast]

Skan,
Allan has done a good job in answering your questions in the previous posts.

So, do I understand you correctly in saying that the signs validated the messengers as being from God to those who didn't believe their message was of God? How does that work?
__________________

The signs of an Apostle2cor1212Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

The signs were foundational as they were all throughout the 66 books both for the believer and the unbeliever. it is nothing less than God making his eternal purpose known by the church,eph3:9-11.

We know of God's wrath being revealed,as well as the revelation of jesus Christ. Allan pointed out that God ordains the ways and the means, to build up and instruct the church ,and to be able to withstand the gainsayer.

Let me rephrase that for those who aren't privy to our former discussion: Why would God need to validate a messenger (or his message) if the secret inward work of the HS "enlightens" them to the truthfulness and gives them the needed understanding

Just like giving man the ten commandments reveal the standard they will be judged by at the white throne...the word is established and revealed by those God ordains....that is why when God sealed the word we can reject out of hand, these false prophets and teachers that plague our world today.

 

[JesusFan]

Skan,
Allan has done a good job in answering your questions in the previous posts.


The signs of an Apostle2cor1212Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

The signs were foundational as they were all throughout the 66 books both for the believer and the unbeliever. it is nothing less than God making his eternal purpose known by the church,eph3:9-11.

We know of God's wrath being revealed,as well as the revelation of jesus Christ. Allan pointed out that God ordains the ways and the means, to build up and instruct the church ,and to be able to withstand the gainsayer.



Just like giving man the ten commandments reveal the standard they will be judged by at the white throne...the word is established and revealed by those God ordains....that is why when God sealed the word we can reject out of hand, these false prophets and teachers that plague our world today.

Again, those of us who ARE "Bapticostalists" would agree that NONE of the revelatory aspects of the gifts have ceased, but WHERE is it written that ALL must have ceased?

 

[TCassidy]

Again, those of us who ARE "Bapticostalists" would agree that NONE of the revelatory aspects of the gifts have ceased, but WHERE is it written that ALL must have ceased?

1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

The sign gifts were temporary. They were needed when the Revelation of God was still incomplete or in part. When the complete (perfect) Revelation came (Bible was finished) the partial Revelation, in the form of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge, passed away.

Then Paul confirms that in verse 13 where he says that NOW (when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians) abide faith, hope, and love, THESE THREE. Note he did NOT say faith, hope, love, tongues, prophecy, and knowledge, these six.

When Paul wrote 1 Corinthians the gifts of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge were no longer being given to new converts, and as the old believers aged and died out, so did the gifts they were given. By the early 2nd century all such gifted believers were gone and with them the sign gifts as they were no longer needed to confirm the inscripturation of God's word.

 

[HankD]

Hebrews 2

3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?​

"Was confirmed": Confirmation of "so great salvation" had been made by those who heard Him. Some of them bearing witness though the inspired Scripture after which no further confirmation was needed.​

Peter heard Him and though he has passed from the earthly scene he bears witness in the Scripture:

2 Peter 1
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.​

We have the very word of God whereunto we should take heed, we have no need of signs and wonders. We have a double witness - holy men of God and the Holy Ghost.​

1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.​

The just shall live by faith
Not signs.​

HankD​

 

[Skandelon]

Skan,
Allan has done a good job in answering your questions in the previous posts.

I look forward to his response to my reply in post #23, because I'm not sure how anyone can distinguish between the clear outward cause and a secret inward cause which are supposedly both meant to have the same effect.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

I've heard a lot of sermons on the "Great Commission", but only on a narrow reading of the text. I think this topic ties in to the debate over whether the commission was given only to the apostles or to the entire Church. According to the commission, "these signs shall follow them that believe...". It does not say, "they may follow", or "they will follow for a little while". If it is given to the Church universal, then was Jesus mistaken when he gave a clear declaration that the signs would follow believers? Here is the entire commission; not just the parts preachers like to use:


Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.
And commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
They asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Go ye therefore, preach the gospel to every creature, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

 

[browes]

I have two very close friends that recently went on a mission trip to a remote village in Africa where no written translation of the of the Bible is in existence. Most of the people in the village had never heard of Jesus. Their interpreter asked if they would pray for a man from the village that was completely blind. They laid hands on the man and prayed for him, and once they said "amen" he could see. They weren't expecting this to happen, but it happened. The man ran out telling the rest of the villagers that he didn't know much about Jesus, but what he did know was that he used to be blind and now he can see. Of course, the villagers all wanted to hear about this Jesus.

Both of the men I'm speaking of are conservative SBC pastors and definitely don't believe in the spiritual gifts that charismatic churches practice (nor do I).

 

[JesusFan]

I have two very close friends that recently went on a mission trip to a remote village in Africa where no written translation of the of the Bible is in existence. Most of the people in the village had never heard of Jesus. Their interpreter asked if they would pray for a man from the village that was completely blind. They laid hands on the man and prayed for him, and once they said "amen" he could see. They weren't expecting this to happen, but it happened. The man ran out telling the rest of the villagers that he didn't know much about Jesus, but what he did know was that he used to be blind and now he can see. Of course, the villagers all wanted to hear about this Jesus.

Both of the men I'm speaking of are conservative SBC pastors and definitely don't believe in the spiritual gifts that charismatic churches practice (nor do I).

Sounds like the Book of Acts happening today, in areas "dark" to the Gospel, Lord uses signs and wonders to validate the truth of the message...

The ministers were not expecting it to happen, so they did not have "faith" producing it...

Not norm for today, but God still does "show up" at times to glorify name of Jesus....

 

[Skandelon]

I look forward to his response to my reply in post #23, because I'm not sure how anyone can distinguish between the clear outward cause and a secret inward cause which are supposedly both meant to have the same effect.

The strongest points of one's argument are not typically reflected in the portion that his opponents address, but in the portions ignored.

 

[jbh28]

No. The canon of scripture is closed so, as there is no new revelation, there is no need for miraculous confirmation.

:thumbs::thumbsup:

 

[Jim1999]

Sure He does. I saw it the other day. It read: Turn right...and keep straight.

I think God uses signs to give us guidance along the way in life. Revelations are another question, and I agree that scriptures are complete with the original manuscripts.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[righteousdude2]

Concerning Modern Signs and Wonders!

I guess my only question is: Why can't God still use signs and wonders? He is still God, and an Awesome God at that! :thumbs:

Pastor Paul :type:

 

[TCassidy]

I guess my only question is: Why can't God still use signs and wonders? He is still God, and an Awesome God at that! :thumbs:

Pastor Paul :type:

Because He said so and God NEVER contradicts His word. He is not a liar.

 

[Tom Butler]

I've heard a lot of sermons on the "Great Commission", but only on a narrow reading of the text. I think this topic ties in to the debate over whether the commission was given only to the apostles or to the entire Church. According to the commission, "these signs shall follow them that believe...". It does not say, "they may follow", or "they will follow for a little while". If it is given to the Church universal, then was Jesus mistaken when he gave a clear declaration that the signs would follow believers?

I would hesitate to build a doctrine around a disputed scripture passage that does not appear in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts.

The undisputed commission ( Matthew 28) was given to the Eleven, which constituted the first church, the one Jesus established himself. It was also given, by extension, to its successors. Thus it is given to local churches, not the Church Universal.

Which, by the way, doesn't exist.