Does God STILL use "Signs and Wonders" To Confirm Gospel Today?

[Skandelon]

There is more to regeneration than we'll ever know down here- perhpas more than we'll ever know fully throughout eternity.

We don't have to know all of what God uses to regenerate the spiritually dead heart- we just have to accept that God alone does it.

I don't think anyone here is questioning that point. We all believe God alone can regenerate man.

We simply know from the Word of God that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God

No, to be technically accurate you believe "that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God unless it is irresistibly applied." We all believe that we can't understand the mysteries of God's heart without revelation from God. In other words we all acknowledge that we need God's intervention. We need his divine grace to assist us in understanding spiritual matters. We all agree. Ok?

NOW, that is NOT what you are really saying. You are saying the only way natural man CAN receive spiritual things is if God compels them to do so through irresistibly means (i.e. regeneration). That is not supported in the proof texts you use to support this point. The ONLY thing supported in these texts is that God's intervention, His revelation, His help, is needed. Nothing is said about that help being irresistibly applied to a few select individuals to the neglect of the rest.

so before he can receive ANYTHING of the Spirit of God he must be regenerated

Actually, scripture is quite clear the the spirit's indwelling follows faith.

 

[JesusFan]

I don't think anyone here is questioning that point. We all believe God alone can regenerate man.

No, to be technically accurate you believe "that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God unless it is irresistibly applied." We all believe that we can't understand the mysteries of God's heart without revelation from God. In other words we all acknowledge that we need God's intervention. We need his divine grace to assist us in understanding spiritual matters. We all agree. Ok?

NOW, that is NOT what you are really saying. You are saying the only way natural man CAN receive spiritual things is if God compels them to do so through irresistibly means (i.e. regeneration). That is not supported in the proof texts you use to support this point. The ONLY thing supported in these texts is that God's intervention, His revelation, His help, is needed. Nothing is said about that help being irresistibly applied to a few select individuals to the neglect of the rest.

Actually, scripture is quite clear the the spirit's indwelling follows faith.

Do both cals/Arms, except for those of the strict 5 point/high cal view, believe faith produces/results in the regeneration by God?

 

[Skandelon]

Do both cals/Arms, except for those of the strict 5 point/high cal view, believe faith produces/results in the regeneration by God?

Well, that depends on how one defines the terms. You wouldn't think any Arm would believe that regeneration precedes faith, but some classical Arminians understood regeneration to be the "quickening" process by which one is made able to respond to God's appeal, but that they still could reject his appeal dispite their being "quickened" or "regenerated."

Those who correctly understand regeneration to be "new birth" or "being reborn" by which the spirit indwells the heart of man and brings new life can't place it prior to faith without doing great injustice to the text. There are WAY too many verses which indicate that new life comes through faith, not the other way around.

 

[Skandelon]

Well, that depends on how one defines the terms. You wouldn't think any Arm would believe that regeneration precedes faith, but some classical Arminians understood regeneration to be the "quickening" process by which one is made able to respond to God's appeal, but that they still could reject his appeal dispite their being "quickened" or "regenerated."

Those who correctly understand regeneration to be "new birth" or "being reborn" by which the spirit indwells the heart of man and brings new life can't place it prior to faith without doing great injustice to the text. There are WAY too many verses which indicate that new life comes through faith, not the other way around.

I should add that there are also differing opinions within the Calvinistic camps on this point, as you indicate. Some place regeneration prior and some after, so its clearly not a cut and dry Cal/Arm divide.

 

[JesusFan]

Well, that depends on how one defines the terms. You wouldn't think any Arm would believe that regeneration precedes faith, but some classical Arminians understood regeneration to be the "quickening" process by which one is made able to respond to God's appeal, but that they still could reject his appeal dispite their being "quickened" or "regenerated."

Those who correctly understand regeneration to be "new birth" or "being reborn" by which the spirit indwells the heart of man and brings new life can't place it prior to faith without doing great injustice to the text. There are WAY too many verses which indicate that new life comes through faith, not the other way around.

is there a difference though between being "quickened" and actually regenerated?

Some from my viewpoint would see is as almost like being a "partial quickening" in that person still a sinner, BUT God grants thru grace being applied towards person a 'change in his will" and that person will be able to while still in sin turn to God and place personal faith in Jesus Christ...

is the main difference between our 2 views in this is that you see same type of process going on, just that I see it as will be completed once started by god, you see it as being a potental coming to Christ?

 

[JesusFan]

I should add that there are also differing opinions within the Calvinistic camps on this point, as you indicate. Some place regeneration prior and some after, so its clearly not a cut and dry Cal/Arm divide.

think would be a differenence between if one sees it being either a "partial" quickening, turning of the will to Christ by God, or actually having new nature.heart in order to be made able to have faith in Jesus placed!

 

[Skandelon]

is there a difference though between being "quickened" and actually regenerated?

Depends on who you are talking to. I would define them differently. I see "quickened" as being make aware or enlightened. How will they believe in someone they haven't heard? Hearing the words of truth bring revelation and the ability to understand and respond. Regeneration, in my view, is another word for being "born again" or given new life, which clearly comes through faith.

 

[Luke2427]

I don't think anyone here is questioning that point. We all believe God alone can regenerate man.

Excellent!

No, to be technically accurate you believe "that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God unless it is irresistibly applied."

No. This is why we cannot believe that you were ever a REAL Calvinist. Calvinists do NOT believe that. If you were ever a REAL one then you would not argue that.

It is NOT technically accurate at all.

The Spirit of God does not apply ANYTHING at all to the natural man. He regenerates him before he applies ANYTHING to him.

The Spirit of God causes the man to be more than natural THEN he gives him faith to believe.

That something which is more than natural is REGENERATION.

NOW, that is NOT what you are really saying. You are saying the only way natural man CAN receive spiritual things is if God compels them to do so through irresistibly means (i.e. regeneration).

No. That would be idiotic. I am not saying that nor would ANY Calvinist.

Your conversion from Calvinism is not striking when you {snip - personal attacks are not appropriate}.

That is not supported in the proof texts you use to support this point. The ONLY thing supported in these texts is that God's intervention, His revelation, His help, is needed. Nothing is said about that help being irresistibly applied to a few select individuals to the neglect of the rest.

What is clear is that the natural man CANNOT receive the things of the Spirit of God. That is what is clear.

If he is to receive anything of the Spirit of God he must become something else besides natural- why?- Because the "natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God."

Actually, scripture is quite clear the the spirit's indwelling follows faith.

Irrelevant. What we are talking about is the fact that regeneration MUST precede faith.

I John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is [literally "has been"] born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

 

[JesusFan]

Excellent!



No. This is why we cannot believe that you were ever a REAL Calvinist. Calvinists do NOT believe that. If you were ever a REAL one then you would not argue that.

It is NOT technically accurate at all.

The Spirit of God does not apply ANYTHING at all to the natural man. He regenerates him before he applies ANYTHING to him.

The Spirit of God causes the man to be more than natural THEN he gives him faith to believe.

That something which is more than natural is REGENERATION.





No. That would be idiotic. I am not saying that nor would ANY Calvinist.

Your conversion from Calvinism is not striking when you {snip - personal attacks are not appropriate}.



What is clear is that the natural man CANNOT receive the things of the Spirit of God. That is what is clear.

If he is to receive anything of the Spirit of God he must become something else besides natural- why?- Because the "natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God."



Irrelevant. What we are talking about is the fact that regeneration MUST precede faith.

I John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is [literally "has been"] born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

That what about a Theology like a Millard erickson, as well as myself, who hold that faith in Christ IS what causes/forces the regeneration to come into effect...

that God DOESdo a spiritual working in life of His elected out saint, but that he also will use aagents like like Gospel message to have the work strated by God to be "completed" in his elect by placing faith in Chrsit, and regeneration than occuring?

Think that your viewpoint on this is valid, its just represenative of what is called "High calvinism" more in the Supra determinative group, which is a part but not all of views on Calvinism!

 

[Skandelon]

No. This is why we cannot believe that you were ever a REAL Calvinist. Calvinists do NOT believe that. If you were ever a REAL one then you would not argue that.

Which kind of Calvinist is the "real" one, Luke? Is it only the hard deterministic kind like you? Or are men like Archangel and Jhb not included? Is Calvin himself a real Calvinist, since at times he didn't seem to support the concept of limited atonement. Do you have to be Supra or Infra or Laps to be a real Calvinist Luke?

It is NOT technically accurate at all.

You are nit-picking. All I was attempting to show was that you were making the error of presuming that grace must be "irresistible" in order for it to be considered "of God." We all agree that the natural man need revelation from God. I was merely pointing out the actual point of contention between Calvinists and Arminians since you keep focusing on points with which we agree as if we don't. You continue to do so thus proving my point when you write...

What is clear is that the natural man CANNOT receive the things of the Spirit of God. That is what is clear.

See? Again, restating points of agreement as if we don't agree thus revealing that you are unaware of the true points of contention and the issues of this discussion.

Irrelevant. What we are talking about is the fact that regeneration MUST precede faith.

It's only irrelevant if you presume that the Spirit regenerates a man without indwelling Him...a concept never supported in the scripture.