can A person get regenerated By God, And NOT Become Saved?

[JesusFan]

can a person get "new heart" in them from the Lord, yet still exercise their own "free will" and refuse to accept the Lord jesus in as Saviour?

just curious, as dont some here hold that there can be a long interval between 2 aspects of salvation? God can regenerate someone at age 3 but actually become saved at 20?

or regenerated but still refuses to believe in jesus and be saved?

Do Arminians hold that God can regenerate someone, but they can stay refuse to accept Christ?
or is it faith first than regenerated by God?

Calvinism states that man MUST become saved excercise their faith due to regeneration?

just HOW do both sides see the OP?

 

[glfredrick]

No. :wavey:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Silly question....Nope. Oh, my there I go again being insensitive & abrupt. Please tell me I didnt hurt your feelings....Bad Calvinist Bad, Bad, Bad Calvinist. Let me know, I can take up a collection for your psychological treatment.....anything, but dont say I'm Not Nice.....p-l-e-a-s-e!!!!:laugh: I'm soooo ashamed.:laugh:

 

[mandym]

can a person get "new heart" in them from the Lord, yet still exercise their own "free will" and refuse to accept the Lord jesus in as Saviour?

just curious, as dont some here hold that there can be a long interval between 2 aspects of salvation? God can regenerate someone at age 3 but actually become saved at 20?

or regenerated but still refuses to believe in jesus and be saved?

Do Arminians hold that God can regenerate someone, but they can stay refuse to accept Christ?
or is it faith first than regenerated by God?

Calvinism states that man MUST become saved excercise their faith due to regeneration?

just HOW do both sides see the OP?

The two are one and the same. Scripture makes no distinction between the two.

 

[Allan]

I debated with one Calvinist over on StrangeBaptistfire, a few years back with one of their "sharpest knives in the drawer" as they called him (and he was pretty good to, I admit), his name was Gene. He believed a person could be regenerate not just for years but possibly even decades before they came to faith. He still held that if regenerate that person will eventually and inevitably come to a saving knowledge of Christ. Well you can guess we disagreed on various aspects of that

However it is my contention that most of the issues regarding C/A are rooted in not what regeneration does, but 'how' it does what it does when it does it.

But to answer the OP.. No.. if a person is regenerate they are saved.

In relation to whether a person can be regenerate and be saved and yet still reject Christ or maybe not believe .. The Primitive Baptists hold this view.
They hold that salvation is a work of God alone and therefore faith has nothing to do with eternal salvation.

With the question regarding Arminians - Yes, the Reformed or Classical Arminian does hold that a person can be regenerate (to a degree) also known as Previent Grace (PG), and still reject.. but they will not be saved. The PG is basically just enough to allow man the choice to be saved.. because without it man's depravity is just as the Reformed views

With Respect to Calvinism there are some who state that if a person is regenerate they actually are saved and that is why they believe.. but they will not die in unbelief and regenerated. While the majority of others hold that regeneration is not salvation but the work that brings forth salvation through faith, but without regeneration there will be no faith, and thus no salvation

 

[JesusFan]

I debated with one Calvinist over on StrangeBaptistfire, a few years back with one of their "sharpest knives in the drawer" as they called him (and he was pretty good to, I admit), his name was Gene. He believed a person could be regenerate not just for years but possibly even decades before they came to faith. He still held that if regenerate that person will eventually and inevitably come to a saving knowledge of Christ. Well you can guess we disagreed on various aspects of that

However it is my contention that most of the issues regarding C/A is rooted in not what regeneration does, but 'how' it does what it does when it does it.

But to answer the OP.. No.. if a person is regenerate they are saved.

In relation to whether a person can be regenerate and be saved and yet still reject Christ or maybe not believe .. The Primitive Baptists hold this view.
They hold that salvation is a work of God alone and therefore faith has nothing to do with eternal salvation.

With the question regarding Arminians - Yes, the Reformed or Classical Arminian does hold that a person can regenerate (to a degree) also known as Previent Grace (PG), and still reject.. but they will not be saved. The PG is basically just enough to allow man the choice to be saved.. because without it man's depravity is just as the Reformed views

With Respect to Calvinism there are some who state that if a person is regenerate they actually are saved and that is why they believe.. but they will not die in unbelief and regenerated. While the majority of others hold that regeneration is not salvation but the work that brings forth salvation through faith, but without regeneration there will be no faith, and thus no salvation

So there would be than differing views to when it happens in a Christian?

Reg produces faith produces saved?
faith produces reg produces saved?
reg/faith same time/event produces saved?

 

[Allan]

So there would be than differing views to when it happens in a Christian?

Reg produces faith produces saved?
faith produces reg produces saved?
reg/faith same time/event produces saved?

No Orthodox system of theology I know of states faith 'produces' regeneration.
Regeneration in all are considered a work that only God alone does, yet faith and regeneration are almost simultaneous.
It is of note however that a there are a 'few' Calvinists, and some Amyraldists (4 point Cals) who hold that faith precedes regeneration because they see regeneration as salvation.

 

[JesusFan]

No Orthodox system of theology I know of states faith 'produces' regeneration.
Regeneration in all are considered a work that only God alone does, yet faith and regeneration are almost simultaneous.
It is of note however that a there are a 'few' Calvinists, and some Amyraldists (4 point Cals) who hold that faith precedes regeneration because they see regeneration as salvation.

How that though be any different from what classical Arminians teaches?
Wouldn't be that God uses "general grace" to allow people to be able to accept/reject jesus, and thus be regenerated?

What would be difference between Arminians and that last group you mentioned?

 

[savedbymercy]

can A person get regenerated By God, And NOT Become Saved?

No, in fact regeneration is an aspect of being saved Titus 3:

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[Allan]

How that though be any different from what classical Arminians teaches?
Wouldn't be that God uses "general grace" to allow people to be able to accept/reject jesus, and thus be regenerated?

What would be difference between Arminians and that last group you mentioned?

Man you got a lot of questions :laugh:

The distinction is that RArminian holds to a 'partial' regeneration, where as the Reformed view (that hold to faith preceding Regeneration) sees the regeneration as salvation.

Note Millard Erickson on this from his systematic Theolgoy notes it is the effectual Calling not regeneration that brings people to faith:

God regenerates those who repent and believe. But this conclusion seems inconsistent with the doctrine of total inability…but God works through through a special calling so that they do respond in repentance and faith. As a result of this conversion, God regenerates them. The special calling is simply an intensive and effectual working by the Holy Spirit. It is not a complete transformation…but does render the conversion of the individual both possible and certain. (Millard Erickson, Christian Theology, p. 933.)

Verse an Arminian's of Regeneration is noted here in the 5th Remonstrance:

* Article IV — That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of an good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without that prevenient or assisting; awakening, following, and co-operative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But, as respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, inasmuch as it is written concerning many that they have resisted the Holy Ghost,—Acts vii, and elsewhere in many places

.
Arminius himself before them on regeneration, stated this:

Concerning grace and free will, this is what I teach according to the Scriptures and orthodox consent: Free will is unable to begin or to perfect any true and spiritual good, without grace.... This grace [prœvenit] goes before, accompanies, and follows; it excites, assists, operates that we will, and co operates lest we will in vain

Jacobus Arminius, The Works of James Arminius, D.D., Formerly Professor of Divinity in the University of Leyden (Auburn, NY: Derby and Miller, 1853), 4:472.

 

[JesusFan]

Man you got a lot of questions :laugh:

The distinction is that RArminian holds to a 'partial' regeneration, where as the Reformed view (that hold to faith preceding Regeneration) sees the regeneration as salvation.

Note Millard Erickson on this from his systematic Theolgoy notes it is the effectual Calling not regeneration that brings people to faith:

Verse an Arminian's of Regeneration is noted here in the 5th Remonstrance:
.
Arminius himself before them on regeneration, stated this:

OK!

So than those holding to first view in Erickson say that there is a "special" act of grace HGod bestows frrely on His chosen ones, and they would than have to accept Christ, as now able to accept him by that effectual calling?

And Arminians would say that same type of situation, but person can still stay 'lost' and chose not to come to faith in Christ?

 

[Allan]

OK!

So than those holding to first view in Erickson say that there is a "special" act of grace HGod bestows frrely on His chosen ones, and they would than have to accept Christ, as now able to accept him by that effectual calling?

And Arminians would say that same type of situation, but person can still stay 'lost' and chose not to come to faith in Christ?

No Erickson states it is the Effectual calling (unless you mean this is the special act of grace), Arminians state it is due to a partial regeneration

 

[JesusFan]

No Erickson states it is the Effectual calling (unless you mean this is the special act of grace), Arminians state it is due to a partial regeneration

So then God chose to'partially" regenerate ALL people as a result/due to Him recociling mankind back to Himself thru the Cross?

So ALL could now get saved, but ONLY those who by act of will chose to will actually get saved? Arminian

While cals would say either:
partially " quickened" by an effectual act of grace, person will turn to Christ and get saved
renenerated fully by God, than has saving faith to believe in Jesus?
So cals 'argue" about if a partial/full regeneration occurs before faith exercised, but hold that person must believe due to an effectual act of grace/calling by God?

 

[Allan]

So then God chose to'partially" regenerate ALL people as a result/due to Him recociling mankind back to Himself thru the Cross?

So ALL could now get saved, but ONLY those who by act of will chose to will actually get saved? Arminian

Yes, but He did so when He chose to.. it was His sovereign act as to when and where.

While cals would say either:
partially " quickened" by an effectual act of grace, person will turn to Christ and get saved
renenerated fully by God, than has saving faith to believe in Jesus?
So cals 'argue" about if a partial/full regeneration occurs before faith exercised, but hold that person must believe due to an effectual act of grace/calling by God?

First, understand this is a group with the Calvinistic view. So to say 'Cals argue..such-and-such.. gives the wrong implication. While more 4 point Cals hold to what we are discussing, many among them still do not. However it is a growing view among them, and (slowly) among some other 5 point Cals.
However...

In answer to your above - Well no.. they don't use the term 'quickened' as it relates to being alive and thus saved (just as regeneration does). It is the effectual call that God only gives to His elect - what he calls the 'special call' and in his systematic theology book establishes it as what is known as the effectual call. And thus he states "The special calling is simply an intensive and effectual working by the Holy Spirit. It is not a complete transformation…but does render the conversion of the individual both possible and certain. And yes, regeneration follows faith as regeneration is salvation. "

The term Salvation speaks to the general aspect of everything being saved entails, while regeneration speaks specifically to how and what happened to make one saved (summarized as Justification and Sanctification)

 

[JesusFan]

Yes, but He did so when He chose to.. it was His sovereign act as to when and where.


First, understand this is a group with the Calvinistic view. So to say 'Cals argue..such-and-such.. gives the wrong implication. While more 4 point Cals hold to what we are discussing, many among them still do not. However it is a growing view among them, and (slowly) among some other 5 point Cals.
However...

In answer to your above - Well no.. they don't use the term 'quickened' as it relates to being alive and thus saved (just as regeneration does). It is the effectual call that God only gives to His elect - what he calls the 'special call' and in his systematic theology book establishes it as what is known as the effectual call. And thus he states "The special calling is simply an intensive and effectual working by the Holy Spirit. It is not a complete transformation…but does render the conversion of the individual both possible and certain. And yes, regeneration follows faith as regeneration is salvation. "

The term Salvation speaks to the general aspect of everything being saved entails, while regeneration speaks specifically to how and what happened to make one saved (summarized as Justification and Sanctification)

think that we finally understand!
Arminions and Calvinist mainly differ on IF it is a general call/grace sent out to all men, partially regenerated, God leaves the final decision up to us, apply faith in jesus
Cals say a specific effectual calling/grace, paretial regeneration, we have to "have" faith in Christ, ALL will be saved who have been effectually called


So Arms general call/grace applied to all men partially regenerated can reject/accept jesus
Cals either full/partial regeneration effectuall calling/grace applied must receive Christ

 

[Allan]

think that we finally understand!
Arminions and Calvinist mainly differ on IF it is a general call/grace sent out to all men, partially regenerated, God leaves the final decision up to us, apply faith in jesus
Cals say a specific effectual calling/grace, paretial regeneration, we have to "have" faith in Christ, ALL will be saved who have been effectually called


So Arms general call/grace applied to all men partially regenerated can reject/accept jesus
Cals either full/partial regeneration effectuall calling/grace applied must receive Christ

Pretty much.. with the exception here
Cals either full regeneration OR effectuall calling/grace applied must receive Christ

 

[convicted1]

The two are one and the same. Scripture makes no distinction between the two.

To quote a line from a Smokey Robinson sog: "I second that emotion!"

 

[David Lamb]

I find the suggestion strange in the extreme that Almighty God would grant a sinner a new heart, and yet that sinner does not become a Christian. If the God-given new heart still refused to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, in what way would it be different to the old heart?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I find the suggestion strange in the extreme that Almighty God would grant a sinner a new heart, and yet that sinner does not become a Christian. If the God-given new heart still refused to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, in what way would it be different to the old heart?

Splendid answer mate! And so logical too:applause::thumbs::godisgood:

 

[savedbymercy]

Technically, all for whom Christ died and rose again, are regenerated then, because they rose up with Him as His members of His body. Thats the regeneration they were washed by, by His own blood Heb 1:

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Titus 3:5

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The washing here and the purging in Heb 1:3 along with the washing in Rev 1:

5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

All these speak to the washing of the regeneration, being Raised together again with Christ. Eph 2:5-6

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )


6 And hath raised us up together[ with Christ], and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:



And this washing or Regeneration forms the foundation of being born again in time !