Age of Accountability

[Tater77]

Ezekiel 18:19 (New American Standard Bible)

19"Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity?' When the son has practiced (B)justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live.
​

If your not guilty for what your biological father does or did, then how can you be held accountable for Adams' sin?

 

[Crabtownboy]

Ezekiel 18:19 (New American Standard Bible)

19"Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity?' When the son has practiced (B)justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live.
​

If your not guilty for what your biological father does or did, then how can you be held accountable for Adams' sin?

You can't. Adam only showed that man, using his freewill can sin .... and sadly we all do sin. DNA is passed on. Guilt is not passed on.

 

[freeatlast]

Genesis 3:

7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

11And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

12And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

Verse 7 says their eyes were opened they knew they were naked and they knew that had violated God's command.

When a child reaches the point of knowing they are a sinners and know they have violated God's will and need a saviour they are accountable. One must know they have sinned to admit they have sinned. Therefore until someone comes to that point they are covered by Grace. Still sinners, still have a sin nature but not accountable because they don't realize their sin.

If this is true then we need to burn all the bibles and keep men ignorant so they all go to heaven in their ignorance.

 

[revmwc]

If this is true then we need to burn all the bibles and keep men ignorant so they all go to heaven in their ignorance.

At some point they become accountable. I was on a jury once, the guy on trial was up for burgerlery of a dwelling.
His story was he had apickup truck and pulled into a convience store parking lot. Two guys appraoched him and asked if he could haul some furniture for them. He agreed and followed them to a house where they dropped off their vehicle and climbed in with him. They directed him to a house and got out he stayed in the truck. They kicked the door in by a neighbors account, now not sure if he had a radio on, the truck running or if he heard them kick the door in. They loaded up some furniture and directed him to a house where the yfurniture was sold again he remained in the truck. Meantime a police officer investigated and said he placed a piece of furniture in front of the door so the door would be hard to open. The guys returned pushed the door open and loaded some more fureniture, went back and sold it again. The officer returned and this time parked down the block. They backed in the drive the two guys got went to get more furniture and as they were starting to load the officer pulled up, the man on trial steps out of his truck and is immediately thrown to the ground and cuffed while the other two get away.

Now at what point did this man become aware of a crime being commited? Did he realize a crime was taking place the first time second time or third time. We found him guilty after a little debate of burglary of dwelling because at aome point he had knowledge that a crime was being commited. Those in the time before the writing of God's word knew they sinned, knew what sin was Cain is our best example he knew what God wanted but refused to do it.

At somepoint our lives we know we commit sin and are in opposition to God once we realize that we become accountable for that sin. We don't stay ignorant of that forever unless we are severally mentally challenged. The mentally challenged folks in theis world are very special but they too commit sin it is a question in mind sometimes if they have the mental capacity to know when it is sin.

 

[JesusFan]

Ezekiel 18:19 (New American Standard Bible)

19"Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity?' When the son has practiced (B)justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live.
​

If your not guilty for what your biological father does or did, then how can you be held accountable for Adams' sin?

key phrase here is that God does see that the son is practivcingng/doing "the right thing" in while father is doing "wrong thing"..
Not addressing original Sin, depravity of man etc

God just saying that he will grant mercy to individuals based upon fact that he will see them as being different IF they behave differently...

IF the son follows in his fathers "footsteps" God will punish them "for fathers sin" as just keeping the sinning continuing...

IF son decides to stop that sinful behavior/practices, than God shall show mercy on him, NOT seeing him as being like father...

 

[percho]

A question for all that I think, not sure, is relative to this.

Is it not evident being the Lamb was slain prior to the creation of the one he was slain for, that the purpose of God was not going to happen if the first Adam did not sin but because he would sin and bring death and it would be through the Word made flesh, dying and being given life again that the purpose of God for man would be completed?

In other words. Did something go wrong or was this the plan.

If and I say if this was the plan should we be concerned for a baby that died.

Why did the innocent baby of David die. That baby had nothing, zilch to do with the way he came into the world, yet he died. He like all will need to be born again of the spirit. When?

 

[freeatlast]

At some point they become accountable. I was on a jury once, the guy on trial was up for burgerlery of a dwelling.
His story was he had apickup truck and pulled into a convience store parking lot. Two guys appraoched him and asked if he could haul some furniture for them. He agreed and followed them to a house where they dropped off their vehicle and climbed in with him. They directed him to a house and got out he stayed in the truck. They kicked the door in by a neighbors account, now not sure if he had a radio on, the truck running or if he heard them kick the door in. They loaded up some furniture and directed him to a house where the yfurniture was sold again he remained in the truck. Meantime a police officer investigated and said he placed a piece of furniture in front of the door so the door would be hard to open. The guys returned pushed the door open and loaded some more fureniture, went back and sold it again. The officer returned and this time parked down the block. They backed in the drive the two guys got went to get more furniture and as they were starting to load the officer pulled up, the man on trial steps out of his truck and is immediately thrown to the ground and cuffed while the other two get away.

Now at what point did this man become aware of a crime being commited? Did he realize a crime was taking place the first time second time or third time. We found him guilty after a little debate of burglary of dwelling because at aome point he had knowledge that a crime was being commited. Those in the time before the writing of God's word knew they sinned, knew what sin was Cain is our best example he knew what God wanted but refused to do it.

At somepoint our lives we know we commit sin and are in opposition to God once we realize that we become accountable for that sin. We don't stay ignorant of that forever unless we are severally mentally challenged. The mentally challenged folks in theis world are very special but they too commit sin it is a question in mind sometimes if they have the mental capacity to know when it is sin.

Your logic is flawed. There was no evidence he ever knew he was doing wrong. To find him guilty means that the jury was corrupt, not the man in the truck. The same wiht a child. If there is no law brought to their attention the cannot know they broke any law. Read Romans 5 12-19

 

[revmwc]

Your logic is flawed. There was no evidence he ever knew he was doing wrong. To find him guilty means that the jury was corrupt, not the man in the truck. The same wiht a child. If there is no law brought to their attention the cannot know they broke any law. Read Romans 5 12-19

I voted not guilty several times, until they pointed out that at some point a reasonable person would have realized at some point a crime was being committed. We weren't told the man's IQ if he was mentally challenged and didn't have the knowledge of a normal person, but we could only judge on the fact that a normal reasonable person would realize a crime was being commited. I have often felt I should have hung the jury and still sometimes wonder if we should have found him guilty. The law says a dwelling is anything which accomodate overnight shelter. This would include a tent.

 

[freeatlast]

I voted not guilty several times, until they pointed out that at some point a reasonable person would have realized at some point a crime was being committed. We weren't told the man's IQ if he was mentally challenged and didn't have the knowledge of a normal person, but we could only judge on the fact that a normal reasonable person would realize a crime was being commited. I have often felt I should have hung the jury and still sometimes wonder if we should have found him guilty. The law says a dwelling is anything which accomodate overnight shelter. This would include a tent.

I agree. You should have hung the jury since under our law we have to take into account people who are not as swift as others. The DA did not prove their case and If he was guilty one of his buddies would have given him up in testimony and made a deal with the DA. Like I said this was a corrupt jury.
That being said our Lord is not corrupt. If a person never knows the law and breaking the law with knowledge is what makes us accountable then we need to burn all the bibles so everyone goes to heaven. The problem is that this belief system that we become accountable because of knowledge is also flawed.

 

[revmwc]

I agree. You should have hung the jury since under our law we have to take into account people who are not as swift as others. The DA did not prove their case and If he was guilty one of his buddies would have given him up in testimony and made a deal with the DA. Like I said this was a corrupt jury.
That being said our Lord is not corrupt. If a person never knows the law and breaking the law with knowledge is what makes us accountable then we need to burn all the bibles so everyone goes to heaven. The problem is that this belief system that we become accountable because of knowledge is also flawed.

Babies are not accountable until they realize they are sinners. That is my point, knowledge brings that accountability. We have a concious in us that seems to make us know what is right or wrong. God has reavealed to man throughout every age His plan and His requirements, when we know them we know when we transgressed them. How do you see it as flawed? Do you think someone who is innocent should pay the penalty for a crime they had no knowledge of? You say above the man should not have been found guilty if he didn't realize he had commited a crime.

 

[freeatlast]

Babies are not accountable until they realize they are sinners. That is my point, knowledge brings that accountability. We have a concious in us that seems to make us know what is right or wrong. God has reavealed to man throughout every age His plan and His requirements, when we know them we know when we transgressed them. How do you see it as flawed? Do you think someone who is innocent should pay the penalty for a crime they had no knowledge of? You say above the man should not have been found guilty if he didn't realize he had commited a crime.

I am not arguing the merits of your beief as it seems good, but we are not to believe something because it seems good. We are to believe because fo faith and faith comes by the word of God so show me scripture that says or teaches we are not accountable as long as we do not know we have sinned. If that is true then like I said we need to burn all the bibles and keep everyone in the dark so they go to heaven in ignorance.

 

[Skandelon]

If that is true then like I said we need to burn all the bibles and keep everyone in the dark so they go to heaven in ignorance.

The logic of that argument is equal to the logic of the argument that Calvinists shouldn't bother with evangelism because God will save them regardless.

The bible clearly reveals that men are held to account according to the level of their revelation. We don't fully know what that will look like at judgement, but it doesn't change that fact that is what has been revealed.

 

[Jim1999]

With the above reasoning, we should not physically die because that is paying the price for Adam's downfall. Without grace, we die because that is the penalty for Adam's original sin....we are born in sin and trespasses.

No one has been able to show me a mythical "age of responsibility".

Cheers,

Jim

 

[revmwc]

There are no verses that give the exact words age of accountability.

John 12:47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Can a baby reject Christ?

Acts 16:30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Can a baby believe?


Romans 3:24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Christ has become the propitiation through faith in his blood. Can a baby place their faith in Christ?

1 John 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Christ has paid the price for all mankinds sins including the babies and little children. The issue has become do you Believe on Christ.

John 3: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Can a baby believe on Christ?

If He can and doesn't then he or she is condemned already, but since they don't have the capacity to believe or reject they are not condemned. The only condemnation comes because of unbelief, until the child gets to the point where they can believe and reject they are not condemend. Verse 18 is very clear if you don't believe you are condemned already.

I haven't seen an infant that can believe or not believe in Christ, have any of you?

If you don't believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God you are condemned, condemnation comes because of unbelief, does anyone here know of a baby has not believed or that has believed?

The earliest I have heard of someone saying they believed on Christ for salvation was 4 years old and she was a pastors daughter.

If an infant or young toddler can reject Christ in unbelief then they will go to eternity with unbelievers, tell me what age do you start telling an infant you must believe on Jesus let me hear you confess that you are a sinner in need of salvation and let me hear you call on the name of the Lord for salvation.

Those are the requirements for salvation aren't they.

Romans 10:13, John 3:16, Acts 16:31, 1 John 5: 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
The infant and young toddler cannot meet the requirements needed for salvation, so would God condemn for that?

 

[freeatlast]

With the above reasoning, we should not physically die because that is paying the price for Adam's downfall. Without grace, we die because that is the penalty for Adam's original sin....we are born in sin and trespasses.

No one has been able to show me a mythical "age of responsibility".

Cheers,

Jim

Jim I agree. While I do not say that the teaching of the age of accountability is impossible there is no scripture that clearly supports it and if we understand why we are lost the teaching makes even less sense.

 

[freeatlast]

There are no verses that give the exact words age of accountability.

John 12:47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Can a baby reject Christ?

Acts 16:30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Can a baby believe?


Romans 3:24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Christ has become the propitiation through faith in his blood. Can a baby place their faith in Christ?

1 John 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Christ has paid the price for all mankinds sins including the babies and little children. The issue has become do you Believe on Christ.

John 3: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Can a baby believe on Christ?

If He can and doesn't then he or she is condemned already, but since they don't have the capacity to believe or reject they are not condemned. The only condemnation comes because of unbelief, until the child gets to the point where they can believe and reject they are not condemend. Verse 18 is very clear if you don't believe you are condemned already.

I haven't seen an infant that can believe or not believe in Christ, have any of you?

If you don't believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God you are condemned, condemnation comes because of unbelief, does anyone here know of a baby has not believed or that has believed?

The earliest I have heard of someone saying they believed on Christ for salvation was 4 years old and she was a pastors daughter.

If an infant or young toddler can reject Christ in unbelief then they will go to eternity with unbelievers, tell me what age do you start telling an infant you must believe on Jesus let me hear you confess that you are a sinner in need of salvation and let me hear you call on the name of the Lord for salvation.

Those are the requirements for salvation aren't they.

Romans 10:13, John 3:16, Acts 16:31, 1 John 5: 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
The infant and young toddler cannot meet the requirements needed for salvation, so would God condemn for that?

Trying to justify the teaching of "age of accountability" by suggesting that God would be unjust if the unlearned are not saved is no argument. Many people perish without ever hearing the message. If you understand scripture as to why we are lost it has nothing to do with denying Christ or committing sin. We are born lost according to scripture.

Romans 5:12-19 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous

So we see by scripture that it is not our sins that makes us lost. No not even our sins and Adam's sin, but Adam's alone which causes man to be lost.

 

[revmwc]

Jim I agree. While I do not say that the teaching of the age of accountability is impossible there is no scripture that clearly supports it and if we understand why we are lost the teaching makes even less sense.

You mean since we are lost because we reject Christ. Christ has paid the price for everyones sins, scripture says that very clearly. 1 John 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:
14For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Since He paid for the sins of the whole world that would include babies. The command to believe on the Lord Jesus is clear along with the clearity of the statement that those who believe not are condemened already. So unbelief condemns us an infant or toddler can't make a concious choice to believe or reject Christ and until they can come to that place they are covered. The criteria for being condemned is unbelief I will ask again can an infant not believe on Christ? Can a toddler not believe on Christ and when they come to point that the can make a concious decision then they are accountable for that decision.

 

[percho]

Jim I agree. While I do not say that the teaching of the age of accountability is impossible there is no scripture that clearly supports it and if we understand why we are lost the teaching makes even less sense.

Why would there need to be an age of accountability?

Either God saves a man or once a man gets to a certain age or shall we say mental capacity he then can save him self by his being willing to choose to trust God.

God gives the means for your salvation but you in reality save yourself by your free will.

 

[revmwc]

Trying to justify the teaching of "age of accountability" by suggesting that God would be unjust if the unlearned are not saved is no argument. Many people perish without ever hearing the message. If you understand scripture as to why we are lost it has nothing to do with denying Christ or committing sin. We are born lost according to scripture.

Romans 5:12-19 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous

So we see by scripture that it is not our sins that makes us lost. No not even our sins and Adam's sin, but Adam's alone which causes man to be lost.

Since Christ has become the propitiantion (he fully atoned) for all in other words for all our sins then we are lost because we reject His payment, we reject the free gift from God. An infant can neiter reject nor accept Christ.

So if you say they aren't covered what do you tell a grieving mother of a 2 month old that died when she ask is that child in heaven or hell?

Do you see this scripture as their covering?

1 Corinthians 7: 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
Does this tell us that if a parent is saved the children are kept safe?

Some have taught it that way.

 

[Jim1999]

Romans 9:11 "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of HIM THAT CALLETH....."

"By grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God......

Salvation is not us saying Lord, save me....it generates from God originally and is His choice....We respond because God acted first

Far too many want to attribute the act of salvation to their own works..words. We want to strip God of His absolute sovereignty. I can't do that.

If any infant or child is saved, it is because of God's grace, and not because of some innocence which does not exist.

Cheers,

Jm