Age of Accountability

[freeatlast]

You mean since we are lost because we reject Christ. Christ has paid the price for everyones sins, scripture says that very clearly. 1 John 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:
14For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Since He paid for the sins of the whole world that would include babies. The command to believe on the Lord Jesus is clear along with the clearity of the statement that those who believe not are condemened already. So unbelief condemns us an infant or toddler can't make a concious choice to believe or reject Christ and until they can come to that place they are covered. The criteria for being condemned is unbelief I will ask again can an infant not believe on Christ? Can a toddler not believe on Christ and when they come to point that the can make a concious decision then they are accountable for that decision.

No I mean we are lost because of what scripture says.
Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation;
it has nothing to do with unbelief. it has to do with the fall. Unbelief only keeps us in the condition we were born with.

 

[freeatlast]

Since Christ has become the propitiantion (he fully atoned) for all in other words for all our sins then we are lost because we reject His payment, we reject the free gift from God. An infant can neiter reject nor accept Christ.

So if you say they aren't covered what do you tell a grieving mother of a 2 month old that died when she ask is that child in heaven or hell?

Do you see this scripture as their covering?

1 Corinthians 7: 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
Does this tell us that if a parent is saved the children are kept safe?

Some have taught it that way.

The corinthians passage is dealing with marriage not salvation. In the marriage if just one person is saved the marriage is sanctified by God and the children are not unclean.
In otherwrds the children are not from fornacation, but they are not protected from damnation. They have to come to faith just like everyone else.

 

[revmwc]

No I mean we are lost because of what scripture says.
Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation;
it has nothing to do with unbelief. it has to do with the fall. Unbelief only keeps us in the condition we were born with.

Man is condemned but again since Christ is the Propitiation for all mans sin. Propitiation = Satisfaction God is satisfied with the price paid. This is God the Father satisfied with the Perfect Persons. Perfect payment for our sins on the cross. The greek "hillasterion" actually means mercy seat so Christ is our mercy seat.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Notice as the propition He brought remission of sin whose sin, the sins of all.


John reiterates and takes it further he tells us whose sins were propitiated.
1 John 2 :1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Christ death paid in full the sin debt of all mankind. He satisfied God's requirement of death for sin. So now what sends someone to hell what condemns them?

John 3:

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

They are condemend because of unbelief, not because of sin, the payement for that is the propitiation of Christ.

Romans 10:13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Call on Him for salvation is the message. Believe He is your propitiation and call upon Him to save you. An infant surely can't do this.

 

[Winman]

No I mean we are lost because of what scripture says.
Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation;
it has nothing to do with unbelief. it has to do with the fall. Unbelief only keeps us in the condition we were born with.

Rom 5:18 cannot possibly be saying that Adam's sin is imputed to us, unless you believe in universalism. Because it also says, "so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

You can't claim the first half of this verse is teaching Adam's sin is imputed to all men because of his one sin, and then deny that the second half of this verse is teaching that the free gift of justification of life is also imputed unto all men because of the one righteous act of Jesus.

Just as you have to believe on Jesus to receive the free gift he provided, you have to sin yourself to receive the condemnation Adam provided.

Romans 5 is not teaching that Adam's sin is automatically imputed to all men.

 

[freeatlast]

Rom 5:18 cannot possibly be saying that Adam's sin is imputed to us, unless you believe in universalism. Because it also says, "so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

You can't claim the first half of this verse is teaching Adam's sin is imputed to all men because of his one sin, and then deny that the second half of this verse is teaching that the free gift of justification of life is also imputed unto all men because of the one righteous act of Jesus.

Just as you have to believe on Jesus to receive the free gift he provided, you have to sin yourself to receive the condemnation Adam provided.

Romans 5 is not teaching that Adam's sin is automatically imputed to all men.

Yes it can be believed if one believes the bible. Verse 18 is not the ned of the passage as it goes on in verse 19;
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

As you see by one man all are condemned by because of one man's deed and it is received by birth. Also because of One man's deed righteousness has come on all, but they have to be born again to receive it so verse 19 makes it clear not all receive the second birth. There is no problem if we will just believe what is written.

 

[revmwc]

Yes it can be believed if one believes the bible. Verse 18 is not the ned of the passage as it goes on in verse 19;
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

As you see by one man all are condemned by because of one man's deed and it is received by birth. Also because of One man's deed righteousness has come on all, but they have to be born again to receive it so verse 19 makes it clear not all receive the second birth. There is no problem if we will just believe what is written.

Here is the greek to english:

18. Consequently then as through one beside-fall into all humans into Down-Judgement thus and (also) through one just-award into all humans into JUSTIFying OF-LIFE

Therefore as by the offence of one (judgement-came) upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (the free gift came) upon all men unto justification of life.

19. AS-EVEN for through the disobedience of-the one human missers WHERE_DOWN_STOOD the many thus and through the obedience OF –THE ONE JUST-ones SHALL-BE-BEING-DOWN-STOOD the many.

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by obedience of one shall many be made righteous

By one man's disobedience many were made sinners, not all strange that Paul in the Greek used the word many made sinners, so who would be excluded from the many?
Are we as believers sinners? Do we still sin and are just forgiven we a justified by out Faith in Christ. So then could it be those who are born with a sin nature from Adam, Spiritually dead from Adam and yet not sinners because they haven't come to the point to be held accountable? Is it possible?

 

[freeatlast]

Here is the greek to english:

18. Consequently then as through one beside-fall into all humans into Down-Judgement thus and (also) through one just-award into all humans into JUSTIFying OF-LIFE

Therefore as by the offence of one (judgement-came) upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (the free gift came) upon all men unto justification of life.

19. AS-EVEN for through the disobedience of-the one human missers WHERE_DOWN_STOOD the many thus and through the obedience OF –THE ONE JUST-ones SHALL-BE-BEING-DOWN-STOOD the many.

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by obedience of one shall many be made righteous

By one man's disobedience many were made sinners, not all strange that Paul in the Greek used the word many made sinners, so who would be excluded from the many?
Are we as believers sinners? Do we still sin and are just forgiven we a justified by out Faith in Christ. So then could it be those who are born with a sin nature from Adam, Spiritually dead from Adam and yet not sinners because they haven't come to the point to be held accountable? Is it possible?

No it is not possible as Paul is not dealing with such an issue. The many are all who are born the first time.

 

[Winman]

Yes it can be believed if one believes the bible. Verse 18 is not the ned of the passage as it goes on in verse 19;
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

As you see by one man all are condemned by because of one man's deed and it is received by birth. Also because of One man's deed righteousness has come on all, but they have to be born again to receive it so verse 19 makes it clear not all receive the second birth. There is no problem if we will just believe what is written.

I don't understand vs. 19 as you do, I will try to explain. We might say thus;

As by the theory of Karl Marx many were made socialists.

Or...

As by the writings of Charles Darwin many were made evolutionists.

A socialist or communist is not someone who has had Marx's personal beliefs imputed to them, but someone who follows in his footsteps, following Marx.

Likewise, an evolutionist has not magically had Darwin's personal beliefs imputed into their mind, but someone who has accepted his teachings (or his example) and followed in his footsteps.

I believe this is how vs. 19 should be understood. Sinners are those who have followed Adam's example and knowingly committed sin. Saints are those who have followed Christ's example (he trusted or committed his spirit into his Father's hands) by trusting their lives to Jesus.

To those who follow Adam's example, his sin (and the judgment or condemntion) is imputed to them, to those who follow or trust Christ, his righteousness (and justification unto life) is imputed to them.

Sin and righteousness are not AUTOMATICALLY imputed, you must DO something. You must sin to have sin imputed, you must believe to have righteousness imputed.

 

[Winman]

The difficulty with Romans 5 is caused by believeing it is speaking of physical death, it is not, it is speaking in legal terms about spiritual death. We can look at the terms used such as "but sin is not imputed", "judgment", "condemnation", "justification", etc... in this chapter to know this.

In verses 12-19 a comparison is being made, these comparisons are alike, and yet opposite, Adam sinned, Jesus did not...

Vs. 12 if PROPERLY understood is the key to understanding these verses. It is not saying death passed upon us because of Adam's sin, but rather that the comdemnation he introduced passed upon us because we PERSONALLY sinned in like manner as Adam did. Vs. 14 clearly says men from Adam and Moses DID NOT sin after the similitude of Adam's sin.

Then how could they spiritually die without a law (Adam had a law)? Paul had already explained in chapters 1 & 2 that the Gentiles had the law written on their hearts. This is why men from Adam to Moses spiritually died.

How do we know men are judged sinners for their own sin and not Adam's? Paul said so.

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment wrought IN ME all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 FOR I WAS ALIVE WITHOUT THE LAW ONCE, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

The law was at least 1500 years before Paul was born, so how could he be alive without the law? I believe he is speaking of being a child without knowledge of right and wrong. But when he matured and understood the law he became responsible and died.

We also know that man dies for his OWN sin in Rom 3:7.

Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through MY LIE unto his glory; WHY YET AM I ALSO JUDGED A SINNER?

You see, Paul was JUDGED A SINNER for his own sin (MY LIE ). He said this before chapter 5.

 

[JesusFan]

The difficulty with Romans 5 is caused by believeing it is speaking of physical death, it is not, it is speaking in legal terms about spiritual death. We can look at the terms used such as "but sin is not imputed", "judgment", "condemnation", "justification", etc... in this chapter to know this.

In verses 12-19 a comparison is being made, these comparisons are alike, and yet opposite, Adam sinned, Jesus did not...

Vs. 12 if PROPERLY understood is the key to understanding these verses. It is not saying death passed upon us because of Adam's sin, but rather that the comdemnation he introduced passed upon us because we PERSONALLY sinned in like manner as Adam did. Vs. 14 clearly says men from Adam and Moses DID NOT sin after the similitude of Adam's sin.

Then how could they spiritually die without a law (Adam had a law)? Paul had already explained in chapters 1 & 2 that the Gentiles had the law written on their hearts. This is why men from Adam to Moses spiritually died.

How do we know men are judged sinners for their own sin and not Adam's? Paul said so.

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment wrought IN ME all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 FOR I WAS ALIVE WITHOUT THE LAW ONCE, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

The law was at least 1500 years before Paul was born, so how could he be alive without the law? I believe he is speaking of being a child without knowledge of right and wrong. But when he matured and understood the law he became responsible and died.

We also know that man dies for his OWN sin in Rom 3:7.

Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through MY LIE unto his glory; WHY YET AM I ALSO JUDGED A SINNER?

You see, Paul was JUDGED A SINNER for his own sin (MY LIE ). He said this before chapter 5.

Just a question...
IF someone was able to live a perfect life as jesus did, know that its impossible, but for sake of question..

Assuming that person did live a sinless life before God...

Would THAT get him to Heaven, or would he STILL need the atoning work of Christ on his behalf to "make it in?"

 

[Winman]

Just a question...
IF someone was able to live a perfect life as jesus did, know that its impossible, but for sake of question..

Assuming that person did live a sinless life before God...

Would THAT get him to Heaven, or would he STILL need the atoning work of Christ on his behalf to "make it in?"

What did Jesus say to the rich young ruler when he asked what he must do to inherit eternal life?

Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

This is actually a tough question. All I know is that when the young rich ruler asked Jesus what one must do to inherit eternal life, Jesus said "thou knowest the commandments". That does seem to imply that if a person could perfectly keep the commandments they would inherit eternal life.

That said, the scriptures say all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. No man except Jesus has ever kept all the commandments.

Paul also said something similar.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Paul said here if a man chooses to keep the law he is a debtor to do the "whole law". In other words, you cannot offend in even one point.

James also said similar:

Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

The scriptures do seem to imply that if a man could perfectly keep the law he could earn his salvation. Only Jesus has done this or ever will by man.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

So, you would have to live your entire life without committing the least sin. I failed at this when I was a boy, how about you?

One thing to note, we know the young rich ruler went away unsaved (unregenerated), but Jesus himself said he knew the commandments. And... when the young man said he had kept those commandments Jesus mentioned, Jesus did not rebuke him, but rather said he lacked "one thing". So, obviously this young man did in reality know and keep many of God's commandments.

What he would not do is give away his possessions and trust Jesus that he would receive greater rewards for following him.

 

[freeatlast]

Just a question...
IF someone was able to live a perfect life as jesus did, know that its impossible, but for sake of question..

Assuming that person did live a sinless life before God...

Would THAT get him to Heaven, or would he STILL need the atoning work of Christ on his behalf to "make it in?"

he would still need the work of Christ as man is lost because of birth not personal sin. The law was not given to make man lost. It was give to show him he already was.