Can the non-Calvinists explain what is wrong with this question...

[Skandelon]

Fredrick asked me this question in another thread and when I refused to give him a "yes or no" response and explained to him the difference between God's desire and his Sovereign unchanging decree, he mocked and ridiculed me as if I just didn't understand and as if I believed man is more powerful that God. He also implied that EVERYONE else understands his question without having to make the distinction between God's pleasure/desire and his sovereign purposes. Here is the question:

Are you saying that if God desires something (including the salvation of an individual!) that a mere mortal human can stymie or otherwise cause His failure?

Can you all explain to him the error of his unwillingness to acknowledge the difference between God's desires and his sovereign unchanging decrees, because clearly he cannot hear it from me. Thanks

 

[revmwc]

Fredrick asked me this question in another thread and when I refused to give him a "yes or no" response and explained to him the difference between God's desire and his Sovereign unchanging decree, he mocked and ridiculed me as if I just didn't understand and as if I believed man is more powerful that God. He also implied that EVERYONE else understands his question without having to make the distinction between God's pleasure/desire and his sovereign purposes. Here is the question:



Can you all explain to him the error of his unwillingness to acknowledge the difference between God's desires and his sovereign unchanging decrees, because clearly he cannot hear it from me. Thanks

I'll take a shot, normally backfires on me but oh well!!!

 

[JesusFan]

Fredrick asked me this question in another thread and when I refused to give him a "yes or no" response and explained to him the difference between God's desire and his Sovereign unchanging decree, he mocked and ridiculed me as if I just didn't understand and as if I believed man is more powerful that God. He also implied that EVERYONE else understands his question without having to make the distinction between God's pleasure/desire and his sovereign purposes. Here is the question:



Can you all explain to him the error of his unwillingness to acknowledge the difference between God's desires and his sovereign unchanging decrees, because clearly he cannot hear it from me. Thanks

Not sure what you are asking here, because it sounds a lot like when Cals see that God has His general Will. that no would perish in their sins, and His specific Will, that His elected ones shall not perish, but have eternal life in Jesus Christ!

 

[revmwc]

Fredrick asked me this question in another thread and when I refused to give him a "yes or no" response and explained to him the difference between God's desire and his Sovereign unchanging decree, he mocked and ridiculed me as if I just didn't understand and as if I believed man is more powerful that God. He also implied that EVERYONE else understands his question without having to make the distinction between God's pleasure/desire and his sovereign purposes. Here is the question:

"Originally Posted by glfredrick
Are you saying that if God desires something (including the salvation of an individual!) that a mere mortal human can stymie or otherwise cause His failure?"


Can you all explain to him the error of his unwillingness to acknowledge the difference between God's desires and his sovereign unchanging decrees, because clearly he cannot hear it from me. Thanks

Not sure first what lead to the question can you post the link to the post and I'll go from there. This appears to be a loaded question but God's desired will is that ALL COME TO REPENTENCE 2 Peter 3:9, who keeps that from happening, God or the individual who refusess to accept Christ?

 

[Crabtownboy]

Here is the question:

Can you all explain to him the error of his unwillingness to acknowledge the difference between God's desires and his sovereign unchanging decrees, because clearly he cannot hear it from me. Thanks

I am missing something here. Why would God decree anything that he does not desire? Or why would God desire anything he does not decree?

Help me on this one.

 

[revmwc]

I am missing something here. Why would God decree anything that he does not desire? Or why would God desire anything he does not decree?

Help me on this one.

Gods Will is that none should perish but all come to repentence, so do all men come to repentence?

Yet God is not willing that any person should persih but ALL should repent, but not all do that is what is being asked I believe.

 

[jbh28]

Fredrick asked me this question in another thread and when I refused to give him a "yes or no" response and explained to him the difference between God's desire and his Sovereign unchanging decree, he mocked and ridiculed me as if I just didn't understand and as if I believed man is more powerful that God. He also implied that EVERYONE else understands his question without having to make the distinction between God's pleasure/desire and his sovereign purposes. Here is the question:



Can you all explain to him the error of his unwillingness to acknowledge the difference between God's desires and his sovereign unchanging decrees, because clearly he cannot hear it from me. Thanks

We have multiple desires. I desire to each chocolate cake. I desire not to be fat. Now, I could choose to each chocolate cake every day, but I would gain weight and be fat. So in some ways, those two desires conflict.

As far as your question goes, God does have A desire for all men to be saved, but that's not his only nor his greatest desire. Obviously, his desire for men to have faith is greater than for men not to perish.

 

[revmwc]

We have multiple desires. I desire to each chocolate cake. I desire not to be fat. Now, I could choose to each chocolate cake every day, but I would gain weight and be fat. So in some ways, those two desires conflict.

As far as your question goes, God does have A desire for all men to be saved, but that's not his only nor his greatest desire. Obviously, his desire for men to have faith is greater than for men not to perish.

But why do they perish if God's desire is for all to be saved, I believe this is the heart of the question. The HYPER-Calvanist believe God's Grace is irresitible to those who God intends to be saved, thus would the desire for all to come repentence be able to be resisted by man, if not then everyone would be saved. Not everyone come to repentence we know that yet God's desired will is that ALL come to repentence. So who keeps those who don't come to repentence from doing so God or that person. Thus the question can man override God's desire?

 

[glfredrick]

There is nothing at all "wrong" with the question. That it is not liked is evident.

The question was asked in the context of God's absolute divine authority to do whatsoever God choses to do, with whomever He wishes to do it with, and in which ever means He desires; and, that no human can stand before Him and stop Him from accomplishing whatever it is that He wills to do.

 

[jbh28]

But why do they perish if God's desire is for all to be saved, I believe this is the heart of the question. The HYPER-Calvanist[sic] believe God's Grace is irresitible to those who God intends to be saved, thus would the desire for all to come repentence be able to be resisted by man, if not then everyone would be saved. Not everyone come to repentence we know that yet God's desired will is that ALL come to repentence. So who keeps those who don't come to repentence from doing so God or that person. Thus the question can man override God's desire?

-

I answered that in my post. God's desire for all to be saved isn't his greatest desire. As far as man overriding God's desires...well yes/no

God desires that people don't murder, but people murder all the time. So yes, God's desires(holiness) is not done. What is not overridden is God's decrees. And of course God has decreed to allow men to disobey him.

Also, not sure why you just mentioned "HYPER-Calvinist" because all Calvinists would believe that.

btw...it's "repentance" with an 'a' not "repentence"

 

[JesusFan]

There is nothing at all "wrong" with the question. That it is not liked is evident.

The question was asked in the context of God's absolute divine authority to do whatsoever God choses to do, with whomever He wishes to do it with, and in which ever means He desires; and, that no human can stand before Him and stop Him from accomplishing whatever it is that He wills to do.

Could the Apostles of jesus refused their calling by God?
not meaning Judas, as he was a "devil" from the very beginning/fulfilling scriptures
Could Apostle paul said"nope, not interested I will keep on killing Christians" to Jesus Christ?

Wouldn't this tell us that God ultimate Will will get done, even IF He has to "straightened" us out?

 

[revmwc]

There is nothing at all "wrong" with the question. That it is not liked is evident.

The question was asked in the context of God's absolute divine authority to do whatsoever God choses to do, with whomever He wishes to do it with, and in which ever means He desires; and, that no human can stand before Him and stop Him from accomplishing whatever it is that He wills to do.

So if His will is that all come to repentence then who stops them, if that is His desired will? 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Who keeps them from repenting? Themselves or God?

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

How do you become the brother and sister and mother (i.e. the family) of Jesus by doing the will of Father and what is His will that all come to repentance.

John 6: 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

God's will is that everyone who sees Jesus and of course we don't see Him but we believe on Him in our time may have everlasting life. Again that is accomplished by repentance a change of mind regarding Jesus.

1 John 2: 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Those who come to repentence, do the will of God abide forever. Again who stops men from repenting if it is Gods will that no one should perish but all should come to repenteance? Is it God or it those people themselves?

 

[revmwc]

Could the Apostles of jesus refused their calling by God?

not meaning Judas, as he was a "devil" from the very beginning/fulfilling scriptures
Could Apostle paul said"nope, not interested I will keep on killing Christians" to Jesus Christ?

Wouldn't this tell us that God ultimate Will will get done, even IF He has to "straightened" us out?

1. Yes they could have refused

2. Yes Paul could have said no way I am going to continue to persecute the church.

3. God would have had others called, but God Foreknew the choice before the foundations of the world and He knew they would answer the call. They had just as we have the divine institution of volition, God doesn't override man's volition in most cases.

Could God have stopped Adam and Eve from eating of the fruit in the garden? Of course He could have.

Could God of made Cain offer the proper offering? Of course He could have.

Could God have not allowed Job not to have been tried by Satan? Of course He could but God knew Job's heart God knew the choice Job would make and let him be tried.

God gave man the right to make decision He instituted for us Volition, the ability to make choices for Him or to reject Him. We use this institution every single day, you make a choice to sin or to serve every day, you use volition.

 

[JesusFan]

1. Yes they could have refused

2. Yes Paul could have said no way I am going to continue to persecute the church.

3. God would have had others called, but God Foreknew the choice before the foundations of the world and He knew they would answer the call. They had just as we have the divine institution of volition, God doesn't override man's volition in most cases.

Could God have stopped Adam and Eve from eating of the fruit in the garden? Of course He could have.

Could God of made Cain offer the proper offering? Of course He could have.

Could God have not allowed Job not to have been tried by Satan? Of course He could but God knew Job's heart God knew the choice Job would make and let him be tried.

God gave man the right to make decision He instituted for us Volition, the ability to make choices for Him or to reject Him. We use this institution every single day, you make a choice to sin or to serve every day, you use volition.

I tend to put satan/Adam/Ene in seperate cathegoty, as they were all created without sin natures, so they would all have "true free will"...

Since the Fall of Adam, NONE of us really have that ability remaining, at least not to the extent they had it, as we are not born as sinful beings, natures bent after doing wrong...
key phrase in point 3 you made... MOST of the time...

Again, are there times God CAN execise His divine rights to his creations, us, and compel us to become saved, to obey Him and fulfill our calling?

Think that the Apostles, especially Paul, were chosen directly by God, Father calling them to Christ, and they were "made an offer could not refuse!"

 

[revmwc]

I tend to put satan/Adam/Ene in seperate cathegoty, as they were all created without sin natures, so they would all have "true free will"...

Since the Fall of Adam, NONE of us really have that ability remaining, at least not to the extent they had it, as we are not born as sinful beings, natures bent after doing wrong...
key phrase in point 3 you made... MOST of the time...

Again, are there times God CAN execise His divine rights to his creations, us, and compel us to become saved, to obey Him and fulfill our calling?

Think that the Apostles, especially Paul, were chosen directly by God, Father calling them to Christ, and they were "made an offer could not refuse!"

They could have refused in fact I believe Paul had been refusing to accept it. I believe the Holy Spirit had been convicting him after the stoning of Stephens and hearing Stephens sermon. He was kicking at the pricks of that message, but refusing to answer the Holy Spirits call, so Christ appeard to Him and he accepted Him, could he still have refused, I believe so, but God knew exactly what it would take and what circumstances would draw him to Christ.

Jonah comes to mind, he refused God call but God intervened in that and the Ninevites were saved and Jonah was mad about them being saved. But God turned Jonah around with astorm and a great fish.

The Apostles could have rejected the call in fact Judas after walking with Christ refused to believe Him to be the Messiah and because he chose the riches of the world he rejected the call of Christ. God foreknew his choice and it was part of His ultimate plan.

 

[Skandelon]

There is nothing at all "wrong" with the question. That it is not liked is evident.

There is no dislike of the question, just a request for defining the terms of the question (i.e. God's "desire"). In fact, I answered it by explaining that "no, no one can thwart God's sovereign unchanging decree," but "yes, men can resist God, sin or displease God even if he desires that they not." You went on to accuse me of dodging the question and ridiculing me, remember?

I even provided a link to Piper's article on "the two wills of God" to show you that my answer should be sufficient for both camps.

Your statements in that other thread presumed that non-Calvinists (me) believe God is up there trying to effectually save everyone, but just can't because man is too powerful.

That is a straw-man, because we DON'T believe God is TRYING to effectually save men. That is YOUR VIEW, not ours. We believe God desires all men to "freely" come to faith and repentance so as to be saved.

The question was asked in the context of God's absolute divine authority to do whatsoever God choses to do, with whomever He wishes to do it with, and in which ever means He desires; and, that no human can stand before Him and stop Him from accomplishing whatever it is that He wills to do.

So, then your question should have been answered when I said, "No, no one can thwart God's unchanging sovereign decrees," but for some reason you accused me of dodging and made other disparaging remarks. Why?

 

[JesusFan]

They could have refused in fact I believe Paul had been refusing to accept it. I believe the Holy Spirit had been convicting him after the stoning of Stephens and hearing Stephens sermon. He was kicking at the pricks of that message, but refusing to answer the Holy Spirits call, so Christ appeard to Him and he accepted Him, could he still have refused, I believe so, but God knew exactly what it would take and what circumstances would draw him to Christ.

Jonah comes to mind, he refused God call but God intervened in that and the Ninevites were saved and Jonah was mad about them being saved. But God turned Jonah around with astorm and a great fish.

The Apostles could have rejected the call in fact Judas after walking with Christ refused to believe Him to be the Messiah and because he chose the riches of the world he rejected the call of Christ. God foreknew his choice and it was part of His ultimate plan.

Believing that Saul saw and heard everything that was done before him, but he HAD heartily agreed that Christians and Stephen deserved what they had gotten, as Jesus WAS a false Messiah to Saul...

God "melted away his resistence"and granted paul the calling/gracing to enable him to receive Jesus as being the true Messiah...

Judas was NEVER an Apostle in sense the 11 were... they were called of God, chosen by Christ, were going to follow him regardless..

Judas was a :devil: from begging, possessed by satan himself directly...
he did not "refuse Christ for riches of World" he was a sinner who NEVER placed faith in Christ, and God had him fulfill the scriptures of betryel, as Judas did what was in his very heart to do...

God called/chosen and enables 11 Apostles to receive Christ and following Him.. God did foreknew Judas as betraying Christ, but that was what Judas wanted to do, as never was saved..

Jonah would prove my point here...
God ulimate will would get done, even if Jonah forced a detour, he did end of doing what he did want to do, preach and see repentence of Ninevah!

 

[revmwc]

Believing that Saul saw and heard everything that was done before him, but he HAD heartily agreed that Christians and Stephen deserved what they had gotten, as Jesus WAS a false Messiah to Saul...

God "melted away his resistence"and granted paul the calling/gracing to enable him to receive Jesus as being the true Messiah...

Judas was NEVER an Apostle in sense the 11 were... they were called of God, chosen by Christ, were going to follow him regardless..

Judas was a :devil: from begging, possessed by satan himself directly...
he did not "refuse Christ for riches of World" he was a sinner who NEVER placed faith in Christ, and God had him fulfill the scriptures of betryel, as Judas did what was in his very heart to do...

God called/chosen and enables 11 Apostles to receive Christ and following Him.. God did foreknew Judas as betraying Christ, but that was what Judas wanted to do, as never was saved..

Jonah would prove my point here...
God ulimate will would get done, even if Jonah forced a detour, he did end of doing what he did want to do, preach and see repentence of Ninevah!

Never said Judas was an apostle nor would I term him a deisciple, he followed the group around but never believed the message, he rejected Christ and eventually betrayed Him. But he could have made a positive choice, he didn't but Jesus knew his heart when He chose him and knew his heart thoroughout those years. We never see Christ instructing Judas but always rebuking him. We never see Judas asking questions until the upper room but then it is it me like I know it is but do You. Was Saul under conviction before his conversion on the road to Damascus, I believe yes, but we really have no scriptural reference. I believe yes because almost everyone is convicted to receive salvation several times before they actually do. Many give testimony to resisting the call until they finally accepted Christ.

Jonah was my example that sometimes God does override volition.

 

[humblethinker]

Jonah was my example that sometimes God does override volition.

I think you have some good points in this thread revmwc. I do believe that God has the ability to 'override volition' of man. Your statement above is interesting and it caused to to wonder, in Jonah's case, did He override volition or was it that He continually confronted Jonah offering him real, accessible options (to obey or reject) and Jonah finally chose the option to obey?

 

[AresMan]

Many acknowledge the three "wills" of God:
1. Decretive -- what God causes to happen
2. Moral -- what God desires to happen
3. Permissive -- what God allows to happen

The question at hand is under which one does a person's salvation fall.
We agree that it falls primarily under the Moral will.

Synergists argue that it falls secondarily under the Permissive will.
Monergists argue that it falls secondarily under the Decretive will.