1. God caused Christ to go to the cross.
2. God desires for mankind to be saved
3. God allows man to make the choice.
Looks like all three apply to mans salvation in different ways.
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Can the non-Calvinists explain what is wrong with this question...
- Thread starter Skandelon
- Start date
1. God caused Christ to go to the cross.
2. God desires for mankind to be saved
3. God allows man to make the choice.
Looks like all three apply to mans salvation in different ways.
I think you have some good points in this thread revmwc. I do believe that God has the ability to 'override volition' of man. Your statement above is interesting and it caused to to wonder, in Jonah's case, did He override volition or was it that He continually confronted Jonah offering him real, accessible options (to obey or reject) and Jonah finally chose the option to obey?
When I posted that sometimes God overrides Jonah poped in my head to put that point in. Thinking someone would use that as an arguement for it so I just used it. Another I guess could be Lot, God sent angels who forcibly removed him from Sodom, Mrs. Lot looked back he didn't. No God overroad his desire to stay but then he ad to choose not to look back.
Tom Butler
New Member
I think you have some good points in this thread revmwc. I do believe that God has the ability to 'override volition' of man. Your statement above is interesting and it caused to to wonder, in Jonah's case, did He override volition or was it that He continually confronted Jonah offering him real, accessible options (to obey or reject) and Jonah finally chose the option to obey?
Yeah, God gave Jonah this option: Preach to Nineveh or I'm gonna kill you.
Jonah's response: "Okay, okay, I got the message!"
humblethinker
Active Member
1. God caused Christ to go to the cross.
2. God desires for mankind to be saved
3. God allows man to make the choice.
Looks like all three apply to mans salvation in different ways.
It seems that no one on the BB would have a problem with all three of these, however, I do believe that the meaning of each of these three is what would be debatable.
humblethinker
Active Member
Yeah, God gave Jonah this option: Preach to Nineveh or I'm gonna kill you.
Jonah's response: "Okay, okay, I got the message!"
That comports with my understanding... both of those options were real and accessible. Jonah could have chosen otherwise. :thumbsup:
It seems that no one on the BB would have a problem with all three of these, however, I do believe that the meaning of each of these three is what would be debatable.
Bottom line God planned it carried it out and gives the conviction. God gave man volition to choose to accept or reject the free gift. Christ accomplished it all by the Will of The Father.
That comports with my understanding... both of those options were real and accessible. Jonah could have chosen otherwise. :thumbsup:
Please answer this question though...
IF it comes down to whose Will in the End will get done in a particular circumstance... IF it is ultimate decision time...
"Mans will or Gods Will" be done?
1. God caused Christ to go to the cross.
2. God desires for mankind to be saved
3. God allows man to make the choice.
Looks like all three apply to mans salvation in different ways.
Why did God send His Son to die on the Cross?
Out of His desire/will to save all people by allowing them full will to refuse not able to realing secure salvation unless humans co operate with Him?
Out of His desire to glorify His name By bringing salavtion to those he chose to redeem from an entire race bent on going to hell?
God desire to save must be balanced by His judgement on sin
Love/Holiness
God loves people, but also commanded Sodam and Gommorah to be destroyed, great loss of life, but a "remnant" did find way out!
Revelation shows us that MANY will be judged by God and perishing without the Lord....
Interesting that the Lord would allow man to ultimatly decide our destiny...
When he would know MOST would decide to fall away from Him anyways...
WHAT IF the total number/amount of the people that would have actually decided for Heaven would have been LESS than the amount IF God decides to save out an elected group by His own grace and mercy?
Last edited by a moderator:
humblethinker
Active Member
Please answer this question though...
IF it comes down to whose Will in the End will get done in a particular circumstance... IF it is ultimate decision time...
"Mans will or Gods Will" be done?
It is my opinion that man cannot change the things that God has revealed in prophecy. I also believe that the things that man cannot change is not limited to God's prophecy (for example: historical reality). Nor do I think that all prophecy is necessarily indicative of God's determination since the prophecy could instead be a revelation of God's foreknowledge (foreknowledge being different than predestination or causation). I think that whether a certain 'event' occurs can be determined by God and if that is the case then no man can effectually thwart that 'event' from happening.
Regarding the issue of salvation, I believe that God has intervened in my life, giving me the option to choose to believe or reject Him. This option is a real and accessible option, meaning I could have chosen otherwise. I believe that part of the idea of being made in His image is the ability to create a reality, and this ability at least includes choosing to believe Him or reject him. My decision would not alter anything that God has determined nor would it be contrary to His foreknowledge. I do not believe that this compromises scripture but that this kind of understanding is reasonably arrived at and is the premise upon which scripture was written.
Does this answer your question?
It is my opinion that man cannot change the things that God has revealed in prophecy. I also believe that the things that man cannot change is not limited to God's prophecy (for example: historical reality). Nor do I think that all prophecy is necessarily indicative of God's determination since the prophecy could instead be a revelation of God's foreknowledge (foreknowledge being different than predestination or causation). I think that whether a certain 'event' occurs can be determined by God and if that is the case then no man can effectually thwart that 'event' from happening.
Regarding the issue of salvation, I believe that God has intervened in my life, giving me the option to choose to believe or reject Him. This option is a real and accessible option, meaning I could have chosen otherwise. I believe that part of the idea of being made in His image is the ability to create a reality, and this ability at least includes choosing to believe Him or reject him. My decision would not alter anything that God has determined nor would it be contrary to His foreknowledge. I do not believe that this compromises scripture but that this kind of understanding is reasonably arrived at and is the premise upon which scripture was written.
Does this answer your question?
IF you were though in a spiritual state/condition where you could not know if you were able to respond to God...
How would you KNOW that you made a "free will" decision to accept Jesus, since you would be blind to the fact that it was not actually even a possibility unless/until God "woke you up?"
humblethinker
Active Member
Interesting that the Lord would allow man to ultimatly decide our destiny...
When he would know MOST would decide to fall away from Him anyways...
WHAT IF the total number/amount of the people that would have actually decided for Heaven would have been LESS than the amount IF God decides to save out an elected group by His own grace and mercy?
I agree that it is interesting. Something that is even more interesting to me, tweaking your scenario just a little bit:
Since He has omniscient foreknowledge, why would God actualize a world wherein even a single person would suffer eternally?
I agree that it is interesting. Something that is even more interesting to me, tweaking your scenario just a little bit:
Since He has omniscient foreknowledge, why would God actualize a world wherein even a single person would suffer eternally?
Flip side...
Why would/should God send His Son to die, IF majority of the people wouldrefuse Him any ways, and ALL would deserve to be hell bound, NONE would be "worth" the Cross?
maybe because that World would be one in which his creatures would have some autonomy granted them, and that he would get glorified by the Cross in the most fashion?
Might be hard for us to takem but THIS World was the Best way the Lord had in mind to set up, as this was the way that would bring glory and honor to his name, and allow mankind to have some autonomy....
Flip side...
Why would/should God send His Son to die, IF majority of the people wouldrefuse Him any ways, and ALL would deserve to be hell bound, NONE would be "worth" the Cross?
maybe because that World would be one in which his creatures would have some autonomy granted them, and that he would get glorified by the Cross in the most fashion?
Might be hard for us to takem but THIS World was the Best way the Lord had in mind to set up, as this was the way that would bring glory and honor to his name, and allow mankind to have some autonomy....
The ultimate goal of God was to solve the Angelic Conflict by creating man.
The ultimate goal of God was to solve the Angelic Conflict by creating man.
Interesting...
What would that be?
humblethinker
Active Member
IF you were though in a spiritual state/condition where you could not know if you were able to respond to God...
How would you KNOW that you made a "free will" decision to accept Jesus, since you would be blind to the fact that it was not actually even a possibility unless/until God "woke you up?"
Unfortunately I don't think this immediate answer will be adequate (since I've gotta go now for a dinner date) but let me propose this:
I don't think it matters what my state of self awareness is in that it is irrelevant whether I believe that in this confrontation with God I have contra-causal free will or not. I don't think God would answer me if I were to have asked him such ;-)... it would be equivelant to me saying, "Are you being for real?".
I do believe it is God's doing (not mine) that I have the option before me and that God has created the premise that I could choose contrary to what I had chosen. I could not will such options to be available.
Does that help?
Unfortunately I don't think this immediate answer will be adequate (since I've gotta go now for a dinner date) but let me propose this:
I don't think it matters what my state of self awareness is in that it is irrelevant whether I believe that in this confrontation with God I have contra-causal free will or not. I don't think God would answer me if I were to have asked him such ;-)... it would be equivelant to me saying, "Are you being for real?".
I do believe it is God's doing (not mine) that I have the option before me and that God has created the premise that I could choose contrary to what I had chosen. I could not will such options to be available.
Does that help?
Yes, but what if that option was not available to even God, as you need to have Him chose you first in order for you to even be able to choose Him?
Interesting...
What would that be?
Didn't want to highjack this thread so here is the link for a thread I started.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1682723#post1682723
quantumfaith
Active Member
Many acknowledge the three "wills" of God:
1. Decretive -- what God causes to happen
2. Moral -- what God desires to happen
3. Permissive -- what God allows to happen
The question at hand is under which one does a person's salvation fall.
We agree that it falls primarily under the Moral will.
Synergists argue that it falls secondarily under the Permissive will.
Monergists argue that it falls secondarily under the Decretive will.
Good Points.
Many acknowledge the three "wills" of God:
1. Decretive -- what God causes to happen
2. Moral -- what God desires to happen
3. Permissive -- what God allows to happen
The question at hand is under which one does a person's salvation fall.
We agree that it falls primarily under the Moral will.
Synergists argue that it falls secondarily under the Permissive will.
Monergists argue that it falls secondarily under the Decretive will.
Which of the "gisms" argue that it falls under the moral will? :thumbs:
savedbymercy
New Member
skan:
There is no difference. What God desires He also does according to Job 23:13
13But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
This word desireth is the hebrew word avah and means:
desire, incline, covet, wait longingly, wish, sigh, want, be greedy, prefer
So anything God wants, or wishes for, that He doeth, or He effects or accomplishes, He produces.
vs 14 goes on to say:
14For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.
All those God desires to be saved and to come into the Knowledge of the Truth referred to in 1 Tim 2:4 shall be saved and come into the knowledge of the Truth, He gave Christ for that purpose.
Can you all explain to him the error of his unwillingness to acknowledge the difference between God's desires and his sovereign unchanging decrees
There is no difference. What God desires He also does according to Job 23:13
13But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
This word desireth is the hebrew word avah and means:
desire, incline, covet, wait longingly, wish, sigh, want, be greedy, prefer
So anything God wants, or wishes for, that He doeth, or He effects or accomplishes, He produces.
vs 14 goes on to say:
14For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.
All those God desires to be saved and to come into the Knowledge of the Truth referred to in 1 Tim 2:4 shall be saved and come into the knowledge of the Truth, He gave Christ for that purpose.