Do We STILL Need To Crucify The Flesh, or was It Done In Cross Already?

[freeatlast]

All the arguments in the world for a sin nature in a believer are simply in vain. There is no scripture that teaches such and in fact scripture teaches contrary to that. The teaching comes from men who do not want to take full responsibility for their sins. They are trying to claim that God has left them with a battle so strong they cannot live above sin when the bible clearly refutes that.
1 Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

We do not have two natures. We are those who "once were" (1 Cor 6)those, but now we are washed.

 

[Robert Snow]

Robert, is there a reason you were so visceral in your reaction? I wasn't attacking you; I simply shared my opinion.

I really wasn't responding to you, but to the thread. I'm sorry if it came across as an attack. :wavey:

 

[Robert Snow]

Robert, so are you saying your résumé and your experience trumps the word of God?

Certainly not! I just don't agree with your interpretation of the Word of God.

 

[Herald]

I really wasn't responding to you, but to the thread. I'm sorry if it came across as an attack. :wavey:

Robert, thanks for the clarification.

 

[Herald]

No we have two. Paul describes the old nature that we have very well in Romans 7 as he tells of the struggle that he has with it every day. He describes the individuals of the Corinthian church as carnal--carnal Christians in 1Cor.3:1-5. He tells us there are two kinds of works in Gal.5: the works of the flesh and the works of the Spirit. We can give into either: the flesh or the Spirit. Face it! Your works are not always the Fruit of the Spirit, are they?
How many times has this verse been quoted on this thread now as a proof text, and yet without knowledge of what the verse means? It is not speaking of your old sin nature that has passed away. It is not speaking of anything like that at all. To find out its meaning you must read the context and get the meaning from the context:

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. (2 Corinthians 5:16)
--What is Paul speaking about? He is speaking to a church that has both Jew and Gentile; rich and poor; and wide variety of people. To use a modern day example you may have a banker and a janitor in your church. Perhaps you also may have someone saved who was recently released out of prison. Perhaps the banker would be prone to look down on the other two people, and the former prisoner might think that the banker would never want anything to do with him.

We have known Christ after the flesh. (i.e. Paul, when he saw Christ)
But from now on we know him no more more. He is not here.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)

Therefore if any man be in Christ he is a new creature. That is he is saved. He has started a new life.
Old things are passed away. What are the old things. The old things that Paul is emphasizing are the things that were differentiating and causing schisms in the church--the banker, janitor, former prisoner, etc. We don't consider people's pasts any longer. We are one in Christ. The banker needs to go to the ex-con and treat him as a brother in Christ and vice-versa. There are no more barriers. The Jew can now have fellowship with the Gentile. Old things (barriers) are passed away. All things are become new (relationships). Our relationships one with another have become a new type of relationship.
This is the meaning of the verse. It needs to be read and understood in its context--but rarely is.
This is speaking of our fellowship with one another, and our fellowship with God. It has nothing to do with salvation. It has nothing to do with any "old nature" being present or absent. In fact if you read verse nine it assumes you have an old nature that sins. Otherwise you wouldn't need to confess it.
But our mind is not completely renewed. The "renewing" of the mind is an on-going process. That is why it is expressed that way. The old nature we struggle with. Paul did not write in vain: "Be not conformed to this world." Christians struggle with "being conformed to this world." If you don't believe me set out what you believe is a standard of not being conformed to the world, and then start a thread on it. See how many people will agree with you.
If you didn't have an old nature you would never have to repent.
This is a stark admission on your part.

Paul said in 1Cor.15:31, "I die daily." Why?

Since your post is lengthy I will deal with it this evening. Suffice to say I disagree with your exegesis.

 

[freeatlast]

Certainly not! I just don't agree with your interpretation of the Word of God.

I understand you do not agree, but my point was to try and get you to see that you are letting your résumé and your experience enter into how you interpret. Just forget everything and see what the bible says without feelings. The bible never teaches we have two natures.

 

[Herald]

No we have two. Paul describes the old nature that we have very well in Romans 7 as he tells of the struggle that he has with it every day.

Romans 7:14-23 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

Paul mentions the flesh (sarka), or fleshly members (melos), four times in the cited passage. He also mentions the mind (nous) once. All told there are five references either to the fleshly body or the mind. Paul begins this didactic passage with a dichotomy between the spiritual and the flesh (v. 14). To play to your argument, Paul does use the word "dwell" or "indwell" (enoikeo, oikeo ) twice. So, how do we put this all together and make sense of it? Verse 23 is a key verse to unpacking the preceding eight verses. Paul saw a different law at work in his mind that was fighting against the work of the Spirit. This law was the mind that is tainted (or trained) by sin and is made manifest by our physical deeds. This is what the reference to "members" means.

When we sin our mind records it. Like a hard drive on a computer our mind retains our sins. It plays back both the pain and pleasure of sin. As we desire to serve God out of our new nature, the old man rears his ugly head and tries to block the way. This is not another spiritual nature but a fleshly nature (c.f. Paul's reference to the flesh/members/mind).

]He describes the individuals of the Corinthian church as carnal--carnal Christians in 1Cor.3:1-5. He tells us there are two kinds of works in Gal.5: the works of the flesh and the works of the Spirit. We can give into either: the flesh or the Spirit. Face it! Your works are not always the Fruit of the Spirit, are they?

You've hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the flesh. This makes my point in regards to the Romans 7 passage. The flesh is not a spiritual nature. It does not compete with the resident Holy Spirit of God.

How many times has this verse been quoted on this thread now as a proof text, and yet without knowledge of what the verse means? It is not speaking of your old sin nature that has passed away. It is not speaking of anything like that at all. To find out its meaning you must read the context and get the meaning from the context:

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. (2 Corinthians 5:16)
--What is Paul speaking about? He is speaking to a church that has both Jew and Gentile; rich and poor; and wide variety of people. To use a modern day example you may have a banker and a janitor in your church. Perhaps you also may have someone saved who was recently released out of prison. Perhaps the banker would be prone to look down on the other two people, and the former prisoner might think that the banker would never want anything to do with him.

2 Corinthians 5 is an abridged version of 1 Corinthians 15; a polemic on the resurrection. Verse 17 is telling us we are not just physical creatures, we are now spiritual creatures. And not just any spiritual creature; we are children of God (implied, not stated specifically in the text). Indeed, in verse 1 Paul references the resurrection. The resurrection is possible because of what; the flesh or the Spirit? The Spirit! The flesh is dying and already dead. Dying in that this earthly tent is decaying each day. Dead in that we are already dead to sin and alive to God in Christ. If we retained a spiritual old nature then we really could not be alive in Christ.

If you didn't have an old nature you would never have to repent.
This is a stark admission on your part.

Paul said in 1Cor.15:31, "I die daily." Why?

Friend, what is a stark admission; the fact that I wrote that we must repent daily? Notice I did not write that we must ask for forgiveness daily. We are forgiven for all time. Repentance is a constant turning from sin. I sin every day. When I recognize my sin, confess it, and turn from it I am displaying repentance. That repentance is only possible because of the new nature. The reason I have to repent is because of the war that is waged in my mind and sin that is exhibited through my members.

 

[convicted1]

2 Corinthians 5:17 is over used to the extent it becomes a self-righteous proof-texted verse.


One verse does not do away with other passages to believers, telling them to put off some things, and put on others.

If the passage in 2 Cor. 5:17 were taken to the extent some on here take it, we would never have to be reminded to put off some things, and put on other things.

This applies to believers:

Put off the works of darkness; Romans 13:12

Put away lying; Eph. 4:25

Lay aside filthiness,; James 1:21

Put off the old man; Eph. 4:22

Put away anger, malice; Col 3:8

Then we are told what to put on instead: Col 3:12; Galatians 3:27; Ephesians 6:12; Romans 13:12 and other passages I'm sure.

The fact remains, no matter how holy any person wants to appear to others in their opinion here (using a proof-text mind you) and frankly, such an attitude is prideful as it is reflecting THEM and not Christ, and does not show any humility.

So, the fact is, each of us struggle with the flesh (if you don't then you're being dishonest) and each day we either walk with Christ, and deny the old nature, the flesh, the old man, and serve Him instead. Sometimes we allow our old self to rise back up, and we blow it. If 2 Corinthians 5:17 were taken to the extent some on here want to take it, we would never ever even struggle with sin again, and would be perfectly holy, i.e. be in our glorified bodies while here on earth. This text doesn't teach this, however.

Why do we sin? Because we have this treasure in earthen vessels my friends (as way of application and reminder). Either we are walking with God, or we are not. By the way, this thing about Christians looking for an excuse to sin is such an unfortunate attitude to have towards others. It comes across as not only attacking others, and of forbidden comparison of self with others, but really it comes across as "look at me, look how holy I am" while talking down about persons not even known by the one making this.

The thing is, whenever a believer sins, he or she had chosen to do so, and gave in to the flesh nature that still is there, and that we are told to put away, a choice we make daily, and moment by moment, and in not deciding, we've made a decision anyway. Statements like I've mentioned are a person giving self over to pride, and the last time I looked this also is a sin.

- Peace

To add to this great post:thumbs:, if there was only one nature, then there would be no warfare, and thus, making Apostle Paul out to be a liar. Our flesh wars against our soul, because the flesh wants to please "self", but the soul of the one who has been born again/born from above, wants to please God. When the flesh rises up, the soul, through the working of the Holy Ghost, brings it back into subjection.

If we only had one nature-I am referring to CHRISTians only here-then we would live a life of sinless perfection. As long as we live in this flesh, we will struggle with sin. When we get that new body likened unto Jesus' most glorious body, our "outer man" and "inner man" will be in complete harmony with each other.....making us completely perfect.

 

[DHK]

Romans 7:14-23
Paul mentions the flesh (sarka), or fleshly members (melos), four times in the cited passage. He also mentions the mind (nous) once. All told there are five references either to the fleshly body or the mind. Paul begins this didactic passage with a dichotomy between the spiritual and the flesh (v. 14). To play to your argument, Paul does use the word "dwell" or "indwell" (enoikeo, oikeo ) twice. So, how do we put this all together and make sense of it? Verse 23 is a key verse to unpacking the preceding eight verses. Paul saw a different law at work in his mind that was fighting against the work of the Spirit. This law was the mind that is tainted (or trained) by sin and is made manifest by our physical deeds. This is what the reference to "members" means.

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (Romans 7:23-24)
--Another law in my members. That means there are two. One is sinful; the other is spiritual.
If Paul didn't have a sin nature that he warred against continually why would he cry out in the end, "O wretched man that I am who shall deliver me..." One nature was continually warring against the other. The whole chapter is about warfare of one nature against the other. He does what he does not want to do. He doesn't do what he wants to do.

When we sin our mind records it. Like a hard drive on a computer our mind retains our sins. It plays back both the pain and pleasure of sin.

But you do take pleasure in sin, as you just admitted. You take pleasure in sin because of your sin nature. If you had only one nature you would never ever take pleasure in sin. That would be an impossibility for the Holy Spirit does not take pleasure in sin; the sin nature takes pleasure in sin. Thus you have a sin nature.

As we desire to serve God out of our new nature, the old man rears his ugly head and tries to block the way.

That old man is the sin nature.

This is not another spiritual nature but a fleshly nature (c.f. Paul's reference to the flesh/members/mind).

semantics!

You've hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the flesh. This makes my point in regards to the Romans 7 passage. The flesh is not a spiritual nature. It does not compete with the resident Holy Spirit of God.

The flesh is the old nature; the sin nature. They are synonymous.
"I die daily." Paul had to put the flesh, the old sin nature to death every day.

2 Corinthians 5 is an abridged version of 1 Corinthians 15; a polemic on the resurrection. Verse 17 is telling us we are not just physical creatures, we are now spiritual creatures. And not just any spiritual creature; we are children of God (implied, not stated specifically in the text).

The implication is yours. It is called eisigesis. You don't take into consideration the context. You avoid it. This is a proof-text you use without understanding.

Indeed, in verse 1 Paul references the resurrection. The resurrection is possible because of what; the flesh or the Spirit? The Spirit! The flesh is dying and already dead. Dying in that this earthly tent is decaying each day. Dead in that we are already dead to sin and alive to God in Christ. If we retained a spiritual old nature then we really could not be alive in Christ.

Even here you are missing the boat on the essential teaching of Christ.
Now we have an earthly body which is temporary. Someday we will have a heavenly body which is permanent.

Friend, what is a stark admission; the fact that I wrote that we must repent daily? Notice I did not write that we must ask for forgiveness daily. We are forgiven for all time. Repentance is a constant turning from sin. I sin every day.

You sin because you enjoy it. You sin because you have a sin nature. The Holy Spirit does not sin. Please don't put your sin on the Holy Spirit.

When I recognize my sin, confess it, and turn from it I am displaying repentance. That repentance is only possible because of the new nature. The reason I have to repent is because of the war that is waged in my mind and sin that is exhibited through my members.

The war is the old nature against the new nature; or the sin nature against the new nature. Either way you still have a sinful old nature.

 

[Herald]

DHK,

I laid out my case and I'm quite satisfied to let it stand on its merits.

Peace.