By ALL means!

[Skandelon]

Paul said, "19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings." -1 Cor. 9

Question: If Paul believed that the only MEANS that actually saves is the "effectual call" of God, why would he make this statement? What would his becoming a slave, a Jew, or weak accomplish in saving some if indeed the effectual work of regeneration is all that is needed? Couldn't Paul be whoever he wanted to be and just proclaim the truth and let the chips fall where they may?

What does his "becoming all things to all men" accomplish?

 

[JesusFan]

Paul said, "19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings." -1 Cor. 9

Question: If Paul believed that the only MEANS that actually saves is the "effectual call" of God, why would he make this statement? What would his becoming a slave, a Jew, or weak accomplish in saving some if indeed the effectual work of regeneration is all that is needed? Couldn't Paul be whoever he wanted to be and just proclaim the truth and let the chips fall where they may?

What does his "becoming all things to all men" accomplish?

well... Why does irrestible grace and preaching of the Gospel have to be exclusionary of each other though?
God has elected out His own peoples, but uses the Gospel and other means to allow them the ability to place personal faith in messiah, and thus prove their election and calling is from God?

Why this either/or emphasis?

 

[Skandelon]

well... Why does irrestible grace and preaching of the Gospel have to be exclusionary of each other though?

I didn't question the need for the preaching of the gospel. I understand that the gospel is needed to call out the elect and inform them of the truth. I asked about these other "means" used to bring salvation. Things like Paul becoming a slave, a Jew, or weak? Means like signs, envy and persuasion. What do they accomplish that the "effectual call" doesn't?

God has elected out His own peoples, but uses the Gospel and other means to allow them the ability to place personal faith in messiah, and thus prove their election and calling is from God?

Why this either/or emphasis?

Well, Calvinists have explained what the gospel accomplishes for those who have been "unconditionally elected" and "effectually called," but I've not heard a good explanation as to what the other means actually accomplish. That is what I'm asking about. What does Paul's work in becoming "all things to all men" accomplish that is not accomplished by the "effectual" inward regenerative work of God?

 

[JesusFan]

I didn't question the need for the preaching of the gospel. I understand that the gospel is needed to call out the elect and inform them of the truth. I asked about these other "means" used to bring salvation. Things like Paul becoming a slave, a Jew, or weak? Means like signs, envy and persuasion. What do they accomplish that the "effectual call" doesn't?




Well, Calvinists have explained what the gospel accomplishes for those who have been "unconditionally elected" and "effectually called," but I've not heard a good explanation as to what the other means actually accomplish. That is what I'm asking about. What does Paul's work in becoming "all things to all men" accomplish that is not accomplished by the "effectual" inward regenerative work of God?

Unless one is a Hyper cal and believes in regeneration preceding faith, which I don't hold to...

God election is placed upon those who He actively "works" on to allow them to have their will bent now towards things of God, and he has chosen to work also thru the agaentas such as Gospel/circumstances/signs/wonders etc...

You and I would probably place same value on those 'external " works/things, its just that while you say your will allows you to resist and refuse to get saved, mine is that because God actively/specific way is 'working" in/on you, you will believe and receive Christ!

 

[Skandelon]

Unless one is a Hyper cal and believes in regeneration preceding faith, which I don't hold to...

I could be wrong, but I don't believe that qualifies a Calvinist as being "hyper."

God election is placed upon those who He actively "works" on to allow them to have their will bent now towards things of God, and he has chosen to work also thru the agaentas such as Gospel/circumstances/signs/wonders etc...

So, you don't believe God inwardly and irresistibly changes a man's heart/mind so as to make them willing to follow when called by the gospel?

 

[JesusFan]

I could be wrong, but I don't believe that qualifies a Calvinist as being "hyper."

true, it does though usually, as the faith also used to believe with is seen as the Gift of God, so man contributes NOTHING to salvavation, as even faith is given by god directly... as seen by those who are of the "high" cal view...

So, you don't believe God inwardly and irresistibly changes a man's heart/mind so as to make them willing to follow when called by the gospel?

yes, its just that God knows His elected out ones, but by placing their faith in Christ, reveals to others that their election is confirmed and sure...

the Gospel will "sound good" to an elected out person, but God still will have that person exercise their faith in what they heard to confirm their election is true!

 

[kyredneck]

....the Gospel will "sound good" to an elected out person....

You say that with such confidence. Are referring to only your style of Baptist gospel, or are you including the gospels of all other denominations?

 

[JesusFan]

You say that with such confidence. Are referring to only your style of Baptist gospel, or are you including the gospels of all other denominations?

there is no "Baptist" Gospel, there is just same Gospel proclaimed in different denominations, as long as it stays a "biblical" Gospel that is!

 

[kyredneck]

there is no "Baptist" Gospel, there is just same Gospel proclaimed in different denominations, as long as it stays a "biblical" Gospel that is!

Just out of curiosity, IYO, what is the bare bones minimum of 'head knowlege' from the gospel must one know in order to become spiritually alive? Strip the 'formula' down to it's barest essentials whereby one can eek by and become saved.

 

[JesusFan]

Just out of curiosity, IYO, what is the bare bones minimum of 'head knowlege' from the gospel must one know in order to become spiritually alive? Strip the 'formula' down it's it's barest essentials whereby one can eek by and become saved.

I am a sinner who cannot keep the law of God well enough to merit His favor...

Jesus died in my place, all my Sins were placed upon Him

I place my faith in Him, receiving His grace and forgiveness, His gift of Eternal life

"confess witrh my mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in my heart that God raised Him from the dead"

Basically, realise I cannot save myself, and entrust myself to the One who died and paid my sin debt in full

 

[Luke2427]

Paul said, "19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings." -1 Cor. 9

Question: If Paul believed that the only MEANS that actually saves is the "effectual call" of God, why would he make this statement? What would his becoming a slave, a Jew, or weak accomplish in saving some if indeed the effectual work of regeneration is all that is needed? Couldn't Paul be whoever he wanted to be and just proclaim the truth and let the chips fall where they may?

What does his "becoming all things to all men" accomplish?

God ordains the means as well as the ends. Glad we had this talk. Next subject...:thumbs:

 

[quantumfaith]

I am a sinner who cannot keep the law of God well enough to merit His favor...

Jesus died in my place, all my Sins were placed upon Him

I place my faith in Him, receiving His grace and forgiveness, His gift of Eternal life

"confess witrh my mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in my heart that God raised Him from the dead"

Basically, realise I cannot save myself, and entrust myself to the One who died and paid my sin debt in full

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Skandelon]

God ordains the means as well as the ends.

I am well aware of this point Luke, but it doesn't answer the question. That which God ordains typically accomplish something, or has a purpose. I'm asking what does Paul's becoming a slave/Jew/weak accomplish in bringing others to salvation? What does envy accomplish? What does persuasion accomplish? What does a person's wealth matter? What do signs accomplish?

Calvinists explain that the gospel's purpose is to inform and call out the elect to faith, but what is the purpose of these other means if indeed the "effectual call" (regeneration) is all that can accomplish the changing of one's will?

 

[JesusFan]

I am well aware of this point Luke, but it doesn't answer the question. That which God ordains typically accomplish something, or has a purpose. I'm asking what does Paul's becoming a slave/Jew/weak accomplish in bringing others to salvation? What does envy accomplish? What does persuasion accomplish? What does a person's wealth matter? What do signs accomplish?

Calvinists explain that the gospel's purpose is to inform and call out the elect to faith, but what is the purpose of these other means if indeed the "effectual call" (regeneration) is all that can accomplish the changing of one's will?

The "effectual call" from the Lord will change your will, or more accurately, will allow you to actually be able to exercise you personal faith in jesus..
God grants you "ears to hear""heart able to respond" so that you can now receive the good news of the Cross, and believe ans receive your gift of eternal life in Christ.
the work of God in your life by the "quickening" is to allow you the means to actually receive the mew life in Christ... Still use personal faith in Jesus to get regenerated/saved, its just until tht "effectual call" you will keep on hearing and rejecting the Gospel of Christ...

 

[kyredneck]

The "effectual call" from the Lord will change your will, or more accurately, will allow you to actually be able to exercise you personal faith in jesus..
God grants you "ears to hear""heart able to respond" so that you can now receive the good news of the Cross, and believe ans receive your gift of eternal life in Christ.
the work of God in your life by the "quickening" is to allow you the means to actually receive the mew life in Christ... Still use personal faith in Jesus to get regenerated/saved, its just until tht "effectual call" you will keep on hearing and rejecting the Gospel of Christ...

Spoken like a true Fullerite!

 

[JesusFan]

Spoken like a true Fullerite!

excuse my igorance, but what is a "true Fullerite?"

 

[Luke2427]

I am well aware of this point Luke, but it doesn't answer the question. That which God ordains typically accomplish something, or has a purpose. I'm asking what does Paul's becoming a slave/Jew/weak accomplish in bringing others to salvation?

Whatever God wants it to accomplish.

What does envy accomplish?

Whatever God wants it to accomplish.

What does persuasion accomplish?

Whatever God wants it to accomplish.

What does a person's wealth matter?

Whatever God wants it to accomplish.

What do signs accomplish?

Whatever God wants it to accomplish.

Calvinists explain that the gospel's purpose is to inform and call out the elect to faith, but what is the purpose of these other means if indeed the "effectual call" (regeneration) is all that can accomplish the changing of one's will?

Whatever God wants it to accomplish.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Paul said, "19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings." -1 Cor. 9

Question: If Paul believed that the only MEANS that actually saves is the "effectual call" of God, why would he make this statement? What would his becoming a slave, a Jew, or weak accomplish in saving some if indeed the effectual work of regeneration is all that is needed? Couldn't Paul be whoever he wanted to be and just proclaim the truth and let the chips fall where they may?

What does his "becoming all things to all men" accomplish?

Once again you are confusing Calvin with Hypercalvin. All God's elect will be saved, but they will not be saved without someone preaching the Gospel to them. And that preaching is not a mere announcement of fact; we are to rebuke, exhort (2Tim 4:2) reason (Acts 17:2), persuade (Acts 18:4), even implore (2Cor 5:20). Why? Because it pleases God to save people that way (1Cor 1:21). God can convert people without all that stuff (Luke 6:27-8; Acts 9:3ff) but as a general view people are converted by the word and through preaching (James 1:18).

We are also to take into account the situation of our hearers. When Paul was preaching to the Jews and 'Godfearers' in the synagogue, he quoted extensively from the OT (Acts 13:16ff), but that was wasted on those who didn't know the Scriptures, so to them he preached another way (Acts 14:15-18; 17:22ff). To the proud, he gave warning (Acts 13:40-41; 28:25ff) and to the weak and convicted he gave hope (Acts 16:31). But none of this worked for Paul (Acts 18:32) or will work for us unless Almighty God opens the heart of those who hear (John 6:44; Acts 13:48; 16:14; 2Cor 5:6 etc.).

It is exactly the same in sanctification. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, not although, but actually because God is working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure (Phil 2:12-13). Why do we need to do it when God is doing it for us? Because it pleases God.

Steve

 

[kyredneck]

The "effectual call" from the Lord will change your will, or more accurately, will allow you to actually be able to exercise you personal faith in jesus..
God grants you "ears to hear""heart able to respond" so that you can now receive the good news of the Cross, and believe ans receive your gift of eternal life in Christ.
the work of God in your life by the "quickening" is to allow you the means to actually receive the mew life in Christ... Still use personal faith in Jesus to get regenerated/saved, its just until tht "effectual call" you will keep on hearing and rejecting the Gospel of Christ...

Spoken like a true Fullerite!

excuse my igorance, but what is a "true Fullerite?"

To use a term that is more contemporary with our time, I'll rephrase:

Spoken like a true Calminian!

...or one that holds to a hybrid system half-way between Calvinism and Arminianism.

Calminian Baptists
http://dannychisholm.blogspot.com/2007/10/calminian-baptists.html

(don't worry JF, you're not alone, I suspect you stand with the majority of Baptists today)

Excerpts from the above article:

“God is sovereign, and is Lord over all creation. Human beings also have free will and can decide to accept or reject the gospel. Yes, we are all sinners in need of a Saviour but are not predestined to salvation in the sense that we have no choice in the matter. The "logical" conclusion is that God predestines some to heaven while others to hell. This "double-edged" predestination is what I find particularly dangerous. I cannot imagine a loving God allowing persons to come into the world only to condemn them to hell. This is a difficult axiom to accept and is inconsistant with a loving God. God's sovereignty must be affirmed along with the freedom of humans to determine their own response to the gospel. This paradox is not logical, but it is biblical.”

“There is a paradox when dealing with God's sovereignty and Human freedom of choice. I affirm both to be true, yet there is a mystery involved when trying to reconcile them. I am choosing to live with the tension and trust God with the results.”



Here's the connection between 'Fullerism' and 'Calminianism':
http://www.voxdeibaptist.org/baptist_heritage_andrew.htm

Perhaps Fuller’s greatest contribution to Christianity was to free us from the shackles of philosophical theology. Because many could not see any consistency between God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility they rejected one or the other. Fuller on the other hand, concluded that any lack of logic in such thinking was due to his own lacking, not God’s.

"The truth is, there are but two ways for us to take: one is to reject them both, and the Bible with them, on account of its inconsistencies; the other is to embrace them both, concluding that, as they are both revealed in Scriptures, they are both true and both consistent, and that is owing to the darkness of our understandings, that they do not appear so to us."


But, it does seem that Fuller was more Calvinistic than you are JF (from the same article):

".... Fuller also reminded fellow Baptists and all Christians that regeneration precedes faith not vice-a-versa.

"Man’s response to the invitation to repent and to come to Christ is not simply a wise human decision, a balancing of the arguments for and against, and thinking that those for are more cogent. The decision is itself a work of grace."

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

To use a term that is more contemporary with our time, I'll rephrase:

Spoken like a true Calminian!

...or one that holds to a hybrid system half-way between Calvinism and Arminianism.

Calminian Baptists
http://dannychisholm.blogspot.com/2007/10/calminian-baptists.html

(don't worry JF, you're not alone, I suspect you stand with the majority of Baptists today)

Excerpts from the above article:

“God is sovereign, and is Lord over all creation. Human beings also have free will and can decide to accept or reject the gospel. Yes, we are all sinners in need of a Saviour but are not predestined to salvation in the sense that we have no choice in the matter. The "logical" conclusion is that God predestines some to heaven while others to hell. This "double-edged" predestination is what I find particularly dangerous. I cannot imagine a loving God allowing persons to come into the world only to condemn them to hell. This is a difficult axiom to accept and is inconsistant with a loving God. God's sovereignty must be affirmed along with the freedom of humans to determine their own response to the gospel. This paradox is not logical, but it is biblical.”

“There is a paradox when dealing with God's sovereignty and Human freedom of choice. I affirm both to be true, yet there is a mystery involved when trying to reconcile them. I am choosing to live with the tension and trust God with the results.”



Here's the connection between 'Fullerism' and 'Calminianism':
http://www.voxdeibaptist.org/baptist_heritage_andrew.htm

Perhaps Fuller’s greatest contribution to Christianity was to free us from the shackles of philosophical theology. Because many could not see any consistency between God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility they rejected one or the other. Fuller on the other hand, concluded that any lack of logic in such thinking was due to his own lacking, not God’s.

"The truth is, there are but two ways for us to take: one is to reject them both, and the Bible with them, on account of its inconsistencies; the other is to embrace them both, concluding that, as they are both revealed in Scriptures, they are both true and both consistent, and that is owing to the darkness of our understandings, that they do not appear so to us."


But, it does seem that Fuller was more Calvinistic than you are JF (from the same article):

".... Fuller also reminded fellow Baptists and all Christians that regeneration precedes faith not vice-a-versa.

"Man’s response to the invitation to repent and to come to Christ is not simply a wise human decision, a balancing of the arguments for and against, and thinking that those for are more cogent. The decision is itself a work of grace."

Wow.....Kyredneck..... Ole Danny indicates we are enemys to Baptists! More paranoia no doubt!