"Resurrection" Resurrected

[asterisktom]

I thought the topic of the resurrection thread still had somewhere to go, so I started a new thread here.

This was from JesusFan (who I wasn't able to answer on the other thread).

You seem to have a real big problem with the Biblical truth of the Incarnation...

God DID become Human Flesh, and walked among us...

He DID die as a sin bearer, for the sins of Humanity upon the Cross, paying sin debt in full. Propiation for whole World...

I don't have any problem with the Incarnation. On the contrary, it is central to our very salvation.

I do have a problem with a professed "Jesus fan" who seems to not care whether or not his Jesus has that mark of deity, immutability.

 

[thomas15]

I do have a problem with a professed "Jesus fan" who seems to not care whether or not his Jesus has that mark of deity, immutability.

I will let Jesus fan defend his beliefs, but I find your post (in addition to being semi-arrogant) amusing because a doctrine of immutability isn't the authority of the faith, rather it is the Word of God.

In your theological world, the meaning of the Word of God takes on what ever meaning you want it to take to prove your theology correct. There is no immutability in your core theology. If there were, we wouldn't be having these endless debates on the promises Jehovah God gave to Abraham.

 

[asterisktom]

I will let Jesus fan defend his beliefs, but I find your post (in addition to being semi-arrogant) amusing because a doctrine of immutability isn't the authority of the faith, rather it is the Word of God.

In your theological world, the meaning of the Word of God takes on what ever meaning you want it to take to prove your theology correct. There is no immutability in your core theology. If there were, we wouldn't be having these endless debates on the promises Jehovah God gave to Abraham.

I hope you are not waiting for an answer from me.

 

[JesusFan]

I thought the topic of the resurrection thread still had somewhere to go, so I started a new thread here.

This was from JesusFan (who I wasn't able to answer on the other thread).



I don't have any problem with the Incarnation. On the contrary, it is central to our very salvation.

I do have a problem with a professed "Jesus fan" who seems to not care whether or not his Jesus has that mark of deity, immutability.

the doctrine of Immutability refers to the very essense/"stuff" of God, His attributes and abilities staying forever the same/unchanging..

In the Incarnation, God chose to become a Man, in person of Jesus Christ, so he DID change His form from spiritual to a physical body, but His "stuff" always remained the same...

Jesus DID/DOES have all same 'stuff" as God does, for he is God, but also a Man...

Jesus laid aside the use of His Godly attributes while in the Flesh on earth, divested Himself of the 'glory he had with the father"

BUT
He did receive back the fullness of his glory when He ascended...

He will forever remain the God.Man

His bodily form will have those scars and marks to forever show off to all creation how bad Sin was, and how great His glory and grace is!

 

[asterisktom]

the doctrine of Immutability refers to the very essense/"stuff" of God, His attributes and abilities staying forever the same/unchanging..

In the Incarnation, God chose to become a Man, in person of Jesus Christ, so he DID change His form from spiritual to a physical body, but His "stuff" always remained the same...

Jesus DID/DOES have all same 'stuff" as God does, for he is God, but also a Man...

Jesus laid aside the use of His Godly attributes while in the Flesh on earth, divested Himself of the 'glory he had with the father"

BUT
He did receive back the fullness of his glory when He ascended...

He will forever remain the God.Man

His bodily form will have those scars and marks to forever show off to all creation how bad Sin was, and how great His glory and grace is!

So now in the Trinity we have the Father and Holy Spirit who are purely spiritual in their essence ("stuff") - but the Son now forever is spiritual/physical?

When God changes from purely spiritual to spiritual/physical how is that not a change?

Well, I suppose I won't get anywhere along these lines. Let me ask you this, then:
1. Do you believe in the immutability of God?
2. What would this immutability entail? How is God immutable?

 

[JesusFan]

So now in the Trinity we have the Father and Holy Spirit who are purely spiritual in their essence ("stuff") - but the Son now forever is spiritual/physical?

When God changes from purely spiritual to spiritual/physical how is that not a change?

Well, I suppose I won't get anywhere along these lines. Let me ask you this, then:
1. Do you believe in the immutability of God?
2. What would this immutability entail? How is God immutable?

God in His very divine essense and attributes is unchangable, forever eternal, all knowing all powerful etc..

BUT

He can also choose to, as he did in person Of Chrsit, to lay aside the use of all those things, to"limit Himself" to becoming a Human being, and 'stuck: in a finite body, not using divine attributes etc

He chose to forever be incarnated as a man, Jesus, in a physical bodily form...

that is the Bible view!

 

[asterisktom]

God in His very divine essense and attributes is unchangable, forever eternal, all knowing all powerful etc..

BUT

He can also choose to, as he did in person Of Chrsit, to lay aside the use of all those things, to"limit Himself" to becoming a Human being, and 'stuck: in a finite body, not using divine attributes etc

He chose to forever be incarnated as a man, Jesus, in a physical bodily form...

that is the Bible view!

OK, then if it is the Bible view you can provide me with Bible verses. Specifically that Christ will always, and into eternity, be in a physical body.

 

[DHK]

Are you suggesting that because Christ had a physical body when on earth that it was impossible at that time for the trinity to exist? If the trinity existed then, why is it so difficult to conceive of a trinity existing now with Jesus still having his immutable resurrected body?

 

[JesusFan]

Are you suggesting that because Christ had a physical body when on earth that it was impossible at that time for the trinity to exist? If the trinity existed then, why is it so difficult to conceive of a trinity existing now with Jesus still having his immutable resurrected body?

That is what is confusing to me also...

is he saying that God could not come as a man, and still remain God?

Does he believe while on earth jesus was "just" Human, and went back to being God in heaven?

wasn't that one of the early heresys in Church, that Jesus was "Just" a Human on earth, and became God after getting resurrected?

because God was In jesus, same essense/stuff // what God is/Jesus is, so THAT did not violate Immuntability, nor would keeping same body in a physical glorified state!

 

[asterisktom]

Are you suggesting that because Christ had a physical body when on earth that it was impossible at that time for the trinity to exist?

No.

If the trinity existed then, why is it so difficult to conceive of a trinity existing now with Jesus still having his immutable resurrected body?

There is a difference between God becoming physical for a purpose and for the time needed, and for all eternity. I already quoted the passage that explained the purpose for the incarnation. Once the purpose was fulfilled the need for Christ to be in the flesh was no longer there.

 

[JesusFan]

No.


There is a difference between God becoming physical for a purpose and for the time needed, and for all eternity. I already quoted the passage that explained the purpose for the incarnation. Once the purpose was fulfilled the need for Christ to be in the flesh was no longer there.

it is , since his physically resurrected/glorified body will be the templete God uses to make us "as He Is" at the Second Coming Of Christ!

also, he will have those scars for us forever in his body, to 'show off" to all beings just how bad sin is, and just how much greater grace of God is!

 

[asterisktom]

That is what is confusing to me also...

is he saying that God could not come as a man, and still remain God?

Does he believe while on earth jesus was "just" Human, and went back to being God in heaven?

wasn't that one of the early heresys in Church, that Jesus was "Just" a Human on earth, and became God after getting resurrected?

because God was In jesus, same essense/stuff // what God is/Jesus is, so THAT did not violate Immuntability, nor would keeping same body in a physical glorified state!

With you I have to keep repeating myself. And still you come up with the above comments. It is too tiresome to type "No, I am not [blank], No, I do not believe [blank]....

 

[asterisktom]

it is , since his physically resurrected/glorified body will be the templete God uses to make us "as He Is" at the Second Coming Of Christ!

also, he will have those scars for us forever in his body, to 'show off" to all beings just how bad sin is, and just how much greater grace of God is!

You don't have a single verse for any of this. This is all just human fancy. The Lord of glory does not need to "show off". Neither does He need such an object lesson for all eternity when "we will know just as we are known".

 

[DHK]

There is a difference between God becoming physical for a purpose and for the time needed, and for all eternity. I already quoted the passage that explained the purpose for the incarnation. Once the purpose was fulfilled the need for Christ to be in the flesh was no longer there.

That is only an opinion held by you, and not necessarily Biblical. The Bible declares that he has a physical body, a resurrected body. He is the firstruits of all who will have such bodies. He is seated. He stood. He ascended. He will come again.
BTW, they saw him ascend toward the clouds, and then in a cloud. The cloud did not cover building. We do have an atmosphere. The base of a cumulus cloud usually ranges anywhere between 700 ft. and 10,000 ft. (the normal altitude of a commercial aircraft). We see aircraft take off all the time. We see them ascend, go through the clouds. This is what the disciples saw. They saw Christ ascend, and then go up in a cloud. The angels were speaking of Christ. He shall so come again; not the cloud.

 

[revmwc]

You don't have a single verse for any of this. This is all just human fancy. The Lord of glory does not need to "show off". Neither does He need such an object lesson for all eternity when "we will know just as we are known".

Matthew 17: 1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

So was this in a spirit or a physical Transfigured Body, still in Human form but as it would be in heaven. Moses and Elijah had been dead for how many years and yet they could be recognized, how if it is just a spiritual body?

God's is immutable His plan has always been the same. God's plan for man's salvation included the Son taking on a human body and becoming the human sacrifice needed for man's salvation. It was a ressurected body and God accepted the human sacrifice of His Son. The Spirit of the Son rsiding in it for all eternity.

Hebrews 9: 19For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

20Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

21Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

How did
Christ enter the into the Holy place in Heaven, in spirit form or in human form in which the Priest must come and pour the blood out on the mercy, purifing mankind once and forever. So too will he return for those of us who look for His return, but not just us but for all who believe on Him unto salvation.

 

[revmwc]

You don't have a single verse for any of this. This is all just human fancy. The Lord of glory does not need to "show off". Neither does He need such an object lesson for all eternity when "we will know just as we are known".

1 Corinthians 15: 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Fairly well says Christ is risen from the dead (nekron) and we SHALL-BE-BEING-made to Live (zOopoiEthEstonai)

Strong's Number: 2227 encodedOriginalWord
Original Word Word Origin
ζῳοποιέω from the same as (2226) and (4160)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
zōopoieō dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
Parts of Speech TDNT
Verb 2:874,290
Definition
to produce alive, begat or bear living young
to cause to live, make alive, give life
by spiritual power to arouse and invigorate
to restore to life to give increase of life: thus of physical life
of the spirit, quickening as respects the spirit, endued with new and greater powers of life metaph., of seeds quickened into life, i.e. germinating, springing up, growing

Translated Words
KJV (12) - give life, 2; make alive, 1; quicken, 9;
NAS (11) - come to life, 1; give life, 1; gives life, 4; gives...life, 1; impart life, 1; life-giving, 1; made alive,

 

[percho]

At about three o'clock in the afternoon on Nissan 14 in about the year 31 give or take one to three years the spirit that had kept Jesus of Nazareth a living soul he released into the hands of the Father from whence it had come. His body of flesh still hung on the cross though Jesus was dead. He, Jesus, that is whatever was left of him after his spirit departed was put in the tomb just before sunset. Three days and three nights later Jesus was resurrected from the dead. The soul? Fifty days after the resurrection Peter was preaching to about three thousand living souls or more and said this concerning the resurrection of Jesus. One, speaking of resurrection his soul was not left in Hades. Therefore his soul was raised from Hades. Two, neither did his flesh see corruption. What was buried was corruptible for it is said in Acts 13 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, no more to return to corruption. Therefore the soul Jesus, was raised in an incorruptible flesh and bone spiritual body.

 

[thomas15]

You don't have a single verse for any of this. This is all just human fancy. The Lord of glory does not need to "show off". Neither does He need such an object lesson for all eternity when "we will know just as we are known".

A very good arguement could be made that in Rev Ch 5 beginning verse 5 the Lamb is the resurrected Jesus, now in heaven and showing the physical scars of the cross. While you are correct that the Lord doesn't need to show off, he will be worshipped in heaven for who he is, the Lord of the universe, creator of all things and among other things, he, who bought by His blood our redemption.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

I
I do have a problem with a professed "Jesus fan" who seems to not care whether or not his Jesus has that mark of deity, immutability.

It's called the Hypostatic Union. In the Person of the Blessed Savior subsists two natures, one human and one Divine. In the Incarnation, there was no change in Christ's Divine nature. He simply added a human nature. Christ's Divine nature has always been immaterial. A human is both material and immaterial.

Therefore, Christ has always been immaterial with respect to His Divine nature, and is both material and immaterial with respect to His human nature.

 

[webdog]

I hope you are not waiting for an answer from me.

...yet he got one