Is it true Sabbath days equal the 7th, 14th in the Feast months?

[DHK]

There is no mention of the seventh day "of the week" in Genesis, Exodus or Deuternonomy or any other reference for the fourth commandment.

No, but the Hebrews had a calendar and they followed it. They had a name for a day that they called the Sabbath day. It was the seventh day of the week. On our calendar that day is called Saturday--the seventh day of the week, also called the Sabbath (according to the Jews).

The principle is very simple. Six days both precede and follow the Sabbath day. Nowhere does God demand what day "OF THE WEEK" according to human calendars must this set of seven days begin - nowhere!

Correct! And you, therefore, should not complain if I declare my day of rest on perhaps "Tuesday" then on any other day. Is that not right? God does not demand what day of the week to keep--your words.

Can it be permenantly fixed by God to a certain day "of the week"? Under the New Covenant types and New Covenant application it is fixed by God to the "first day of the week" (Lev. 23; Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; Mk. 16:9; Rev. 1:7).

The Sabbath has always been fixed on the seventh day of whatever the societal calendar was being used. In this case our Julian calendar states that Saturday is the seventh day, and therefore Saturday is ALWAYS the Sabbath. No other day can be the sabbath, for the Sabbath is given to the Jew (Ex.31)

Our dear brother DKH complains that he works on Sundays? May I ask what KIND OF WORK? Does he really believe the Bible forbids all kinds of work on the Sabbath?

Sunday is not the Sabbath and never was. This is a complete misnomer. It is not even a Biblical concept. Our Julian calendar shows that Saturday is the seventh day and thus it is the Sabbath. It is the same day that the Jews go to their synagogues; that their Rabbis teach them. It is the same day that the SDA's worship. You are absolutely wrong in your reasoning here. God is a God of order; you have made him a God of disorder. God used calendars. Please read your Bible and find all about the calendars that God used and commanded Israel to use.

Yes, I work on Sunday.

Jesus explicitly states that the Sabbath is given to the work of God, the work of the ministry,

Chapter and verse please. I would like to read that one for myself.

the work in the house of God but is a "rest" from the kind of work that is all about self interests (Isa. 58:13).

If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: (Isaiah 58:13)
--Scripture taken out of context. What does the next verse say?

Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. (Isaiah 58:14)
--Obviously it is not speaking of this day and age. It has nothing to do with "our ministry today, or on any Sunday."

This kind of work Jesus says that God continues to do upon the Sabbath and so does Jesus. Jesus says it is LAWFUL to do this kind of work on the Sabbath.

On Saturday?? And Jacob is my father?

Hence, does DKH think that doing the LORD'S WORK on the Sabbath violates the Sabbath "rest"????????

The Sabbath is Saturday as is confirmed by the context of Isaiah 58. Don't take Scripture out of context.

 

[Dr. Walter]

No, but the Hebrews had a calendar and they followed it. They had a name for a day that they called the Sabbath day. It was the seventh day of the week. On our calendar that day is called Saturday--the seventh day of the week, also called the Sabbath (according to the Jews).

They used NUMBERS not NAMES for both days and months and years just look at Genesis through Deuteronomy when Israel received the ten commandments. Look at the calculations used to recount the flood, they used 30 day months and 360 day years - neither of which is divisible by seven evenly, yet the stars, sun and moon (Gen. 1:14) were specifically given to provide a Calendar time table. God did not provide natural divisions in the month for an evenly divided seven day week for the month or the year. The fact is you have absolutely no evidence to prove your assumptions above while I have lots of Biblical evidence to prove they NEVER used NAMES for their days, months or years and the days, months and years were NEVER evenly divided by seven.

Second, neither the creation Sabbath or the fourth commandment which is explicitly based upon the creation of Sabbath ever confines the Sabbath to the seventh day "of the week" by any human Calendar method whether it is Egyptian or Jewish. Your whole theory is based solely upon HUMAN TRADITION and not one iota of God's Word.

Correct! And you, therefore, should not complain if I declare my day of rest on perhaps "Tuesday" then on any other day. Is that not right? God does not demand what day of the week to keep--your words.

Wrong by two counts. The First day of the week is explicitly stated in scripture to be day set apart by Christians for public worship (Acts 20:7) and by Apostolic command (1 Cor. 16:1-2) as "the Lord's day" (Rev. 1:10) and nothing you can say can change those explicit Bibical facts. If you want to follow tradition then there is solid tradition to support these Biblical facts for the first three hundred years prior to Constantine.

Second, the New Testament, and particularly the words of Christ explicitly state the Sabbath is a DAY OF WORK and only REST from self-centered works. Jesus explicitly states "IT IS LAWFUL TO DO GOOD ON THE SABBATH" and he explicitly claims that both the Father and Himself WORK on the Sabbath and he explicitly defends three classifications of work on the Sabbath - works of mercy, works of necessity and works of peity. Don't take too much Bible study to see these things IF you really want to be honest with the scriptures. You are so tunneled visioned on this you can't even except the explicit and clear statements of Scripture:

Mt 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

Both of the above statements were given in defense of DOING WORK on the Sabbath day. Isaiah 58:13 defines the nature of work that we are to REST from doing on the Sabbath day - it is clear, it is simply and there is no excuse to ignore or reject it in light of the above texts.

Therefore your SERVICE on Sunday is REST from the work that is prohibited on the Sabbath!!!!!!!!! If not then you must charge Christ with VIOLATING the fourth commandment and thus being a SINNER as he WORKED the very same kind of work you do on the Sabbath - the Ministry, acts of mercy, acts of necessity!!!!

The Sabbath has always been fixed on the seventh day of whatever the societal calendar was being used.

This is true BUT it was not fixed by God but by that particular Society and it was not fixed on SATURDAY but only the SEVENTH day after six working days. In Egypt that Sabbath fell on FRIDAY not Saturday. The point is that it was NEVER fixed by God on Saturday at ANY TIME but it was fixed by different societies according to their own calendar computations which were not the same. The resurrection on the first day of the week under the New Covenant is the SEVENTH day Sabbath fixed upon Sunday after six working days, thus Sunday being the SEVENTH DAY after six working days and thus it is called "The Lord's Day."



If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: (Isaiah 58:13)

Be consistent with yourself!! You just stated previously that the Sabbath is the Seventh day according to whatever societal calendar it may be applied and thus is NOT THE SAME between different societal calendars. Isaiah 58:13 says nothing about the societal application of what day other than "the seventh day" in their soceital calender which could fall on any day in their traditional way of counting time. In Egypt it fell on Friday! Hence, Isaiah 58 has nothing to do with determining the traditional application of a society but with the kind of work forbidden on the Sabbath day as a principle. you are the one jerking this text out of its theological context as it has nothing to do with fixing a Societal application but with the NATURE of work prohibited on the Sabbath day.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The Sabbath is Saturday as is confirmed by the context of Isaiah 58.

Neither the context or the text confirms Saturday to be the Sabbath as nowhere in the Old Testament did the Jews ever use NAMES for days but only NUMBERS. The fourth commandment does not provide any FIXATION of the Sabbath on any particular day in the Jewish Month - that is simply false based completely on tradition without a single scripture to support it.

The facts are these:

1. The fourth commandment is based squarely upon the Creation Sabbath and the word "remember" puts this beyond all question.

2. The fourth commandment fixes only that the Sabbath is the "seventh day" following six working days - nothing more, nothing less.

3. The creation Sabbath is explicitly stated by Christ who claims to be the One who instituted it in Genesis 2:2-3 to be made for "man" not merely for the Jews or for Israel and NTHER DAY does Christ make such a claim setting it apart from all other days. Indeed, the other six days are given to men for a completely different reason - to do their own thing (Isa. 58:13).

4. The fourth commandment is no more abolished than any of the other nine as they are inseparable (James 2:10) and the omission in some listings as in the listing given by Christ to the Rich Young Ruler proves nothing.

5. God gave the stars, moon and sun to provide natural time divisions for mankind and the earliest calendar provided in the book of Genesis in the account of Noah's flood NEVER uses NAMES for days, months or years but always uses NUMBERS and NEVER divides time evenly according to seven days "a week" but 30 day months and 360 day years which are not evenly divided by seven.

6. The Creation Sabbath nor any reference to it as given in the fourth commandment ever say it is the seventh day "of the week" but rather it is a set of seven days that can be applied to any societal calendar and fall upon any day of the week just as long as six working days precede it regardless of the length of the month or year.

7. The first day of the week is preceded by six working days and therefore is the "seventh day" following six working days.

8. The first day of the week is the resurrection day (Luke 24:1,13,21-22) and is explicitly selected and set apart by apostolic command (1 Cor. 16:1-2) for "all the churches" and thus the particular day of the week chosen for public worship (Acts 20:7) and is "the Lord's day."

9. The prohibition of work on the Sabbath is restricted by Scripture to only one type of work - self-centered work (Isa. 58:13) but does not prohibit the work of the ministry, works of mercy, works of necessity and NEVER did or else Jesus is a SINNER who broke a genuine law of God.

10. Faith in the gospel did not invalidate Sabbath observance before the cross or after the cross (heb. 4:2-3) but rather the redemptive work of Jesus Christ establishes a "sabbath day observance for the people of God" (Heb. 4:9-10) which has its complete fuflillment not with the new birth but only with complete glorification in a new heaven and new earth.

11. Those who adopt the Saturdarian application are in open disobedience to both the example and precepts of the New Testament and those who deny there is a day in the week called "the Lord's day" are in direct disobedience not only to the fourth commandment but to the explicit example and precepts of the New Testament (Heb. 4:9-10; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; Rev. 1:10)

12. The Levitical Sabbatical cycles or plural "sabbaths" found in Leviticus 23 having to do with the feast cycle has been abolished but neither the first or any other of the ten commandments have been abolished as a rule of righteousness for PRACTICAL CHRISTIAN LIVING.

13. Romans 14-15 deals with CULTURAL APPLICATIONS that are neither right or wrong in themselves rather than with any of the Ten Commandments which are right and wrong in themselves. Paul does not use the term "Sabbath" or "Lord's Day" in these chapters but has reference to non-biblical cultural days that scripture says nothing about one way or the other.

 

[DHK]

Wrong by two counts. The First day of the week is explicitly stated in scripture to be day set apart by Christians for public worship (Acts 20:7) and by Apostolic command (1 Cor. 16:1-2) as "the Lord's day" (Rev. 1:10) and nothing you can say can change those explicit Bibical facts. If you want to follow tradition then there is solid tradition to support these Biblical facts for the first three hundred years prior to Constantine.

Your post is so full of contradictions. This one paragraph summarizes it. You maintain that the "Lord's Day" must be on the first day of the week, no matter what calendar you follow.
But you deny the same logic when applied to the Sabbath. The Lord's Day must fall on Sunday, but the Sabbath does not necessarily have to fall on Saturday (the seventh day). You totally contradict yourself.

The Sabbath is always Jewish. There is no Christian Sabbath. The Lord Himself is our Sabbath. We enter into his rest. Your theology has put us once again under the law, under a curse (Gal.3:10).

 

[Dr. Walter]

Your post is so full of contradictions. This one paragraph summarizes it. You maintain that the "Lord's Day" must be on the first day of the week, no matter what calendar you follow.
But you deny the same logic when applied to the Sabbath. The Lord's Day must fall on Sunday, but the Sabbath does not necessarily have to fall on Saturday (the seventh day). You totally contradict yourself.

No contradiction at all. I also said in that post that the Sabbath was fixed under the new covenant on the resurrection day which is explicitly defined to be the "first day of the week" which is also called "The Lord's day."

The Sabbath is always Jewish. There is no Christian Sabbath. The Lord Himself is our Sabbath. We enter into his rest. Your theology has put us once again under the law, under a curse (Gal.3:10).

Jesus said the Sabbath was made for "man" while YOU say it was made for "Jews" only (Mk. 2:27) and Jesus in context is speaking directly of the Creation Sabbath in Genesis 2.

We do not enter rest any more than pre-cross saints as they also entered into rest when they believed in the gospel equally as much as we do (Heb. 4:1-3) and yet they still observed a Sabbath day. We are not put under the curse for observing a Sabbath day which is the fourth commandment any more than we are put under a curse for observing any of the other nine commandments.

You are intentionally distorting the discussion here as you know very well that the law justifies no one and never did and therefore observing the fourth commandment does not put us under a curse any more than observing any of the other nine! It only puts you under the curse if you are attempting to be JUSTIFIED by the law. Are you accusing me of teachng JUSTIFICATION under the law?????????????????? The only valid use of the ten commandments was to reveal the knowledge of sin and that is still the valid use of the ten commandments.

 

[DHK]

No contradiction at all. I also said in that post that the Sabbath was fixed under the new covenant on the resurrection day which is explicitly defined to be the "first day of the week" which is also called "The Lord's day."

The sabbath day will always be on Saturday the seventh day of the week. You cannot change God's decrees. God never changed the Sabbath Day. He never changed the fourth commandment. Exodus 31 he never rescinded. What gives you the power to think you can? The Jews still exist today, and still worship today. They worship on the sabbath, the seventh day of the week. They always will.

Jesus said the Sabbath was made for "man" while YOU say it was made for "Jews" only (Mk. 2:27) and Jesus in context is speaking directly of the Creation Sabbath in Genesis 2.

The Sabbath was made for man. So was every other day of the week. You understanding of this verse is pitifully weak. I have challenged you before to take the entire passage (the verse with the surrounding verses) and explain or expound it publicly here, but you have never done so. Are you reluctant to expound Scripture on the board, especially Scripture that would expose your position?

We do not enter rest any more than pre-cross saints as they also entered into rest when they believed in the gospel equally as much as we do (Heb. 4:1-3) and yet they still observed a Sabbath day.

But we never observe the Sabbath day, for Christ is our Sabbath. That is the difference.

We are not put under the curse for observing a Sabbath day which is the fourth commandment any more than we are put under a curse for observing any of the other nine commandments.

You put yourself under a curse by putting yourself under a needless law. If you keep one law you must keep them all. How many are there? 613??

You are intentionally distorting the discussion here as you know very well that the law justifies no one and never did and therefore observing the fourth commandment does not put us under a curse any more than observing any of the other nine!

The other nine are known as God's moral law. There is nothing immoral about not keeping the Sabbath day holy? What is moral or immoral about that? If you are a missionary to a tribe in Africa is the first thing you tell them: worship God on the Sabbath or you cannot be saved! This is God's moral law. Is this the law that is written in their hearts (Rom.2:14,15)?

It only puts you under the curse if you are attempting to be JUSTIFIED by the law. Are you accusing me of teachng JUSTIFICATION under the law?????????????????? The only valid use of the ten commandments was to reveal the knowledge of sin and that is still the valid use of the ten commandments.

You have been attempting to justify yourself and why you should keep the Sabbath. Is there a difference?

 

[Dr. Walter]

The sabbath day will always be on Saturday the seventh day of the week. You cannot change God's decrees.

Please provide just one text in Scripture where the Biblical writers ever say that the Seventh day is Saturday? Please provide just one Biblical writer who ever says the seventh day is the seventh day "of the week"? Please provide just one text in the Bible where any day is identified by NAME rather than by NUMBER?

Don't respond with your mental gynastics but with "Thus said the Lord"

The Sabbath was made for man. So was every other day of the week. You understanding of this verse is pitifully weak.

This is a pathetic response!!!! Find any scripture that says God set apart any other day???? To say that God made "every other day of the week" for man in the same sense as the Seventh day is to repudiate the Sabbath law altogether from Genesus 2 to Revelation 22! That is an absurd line of reasoning! If every day was ALWAYS ALIKE - for man - then what is the point of the fourth commandment???

You need to read the context of Mark 2 and you will see that Jesus is not defending "EVERY OTHER DAY" but he is defending and defining one day set apart "for man" UNLIKE EVERY OTHER DAY! You have tossed common sense out the window.

I have challenged you before to take the entire passage (the verse with the surrounding verses) and explain or expound it publicly here, but you have never done so. Are you reluctant to expound Scripture on the board, especially Scripture that would expose your position?

That is false! I have done so twice! I have answered your eisgesis of this passage thoroughly and I will be happy to do it again!

You put yourself under a curse by putting yourself under a needless law. If you keep one law you must keep them all. How many are there? 613??

Pathetic! You have to go so far in this pathetic response to divide the fourth commandment from the other nine when God's word says they are inseparable (James 2:10). You have to jump the fense and take the side of legalistic Jews who abused the law for justification and use that same abuse as the basis to charge me with putting people under a curse when that is only true if the law was given to JUSTIFY men!!!!!!! Do you believe the Law can justify men????? If not, then what is the valid use of the Law? Is it not to reveal the knowledge of sin? Is it not to reveal the standard of righteousness? I believe we should keep the other nine for no other reason than I believe we should keep the fourth and neither is for justification and only if I believed keeping the law was for justification could you JUSTLY condemn me for bringing people "under the curse." Therefore, you are intentionally and purposely distorting my position as well as God's design for giving Law.

The other nine are known as God's moral law. There is nothing immoral about not keeping the Sabbath day holy? What is moral or immoral about that?

What is moral and immoral about it is that it is GOD'S LAW and that is all that is required to make it moral as to violate any law of God is to REBELL against God and that is a MORAL sin!

If you are a missionary to a tribe in Africa is the first thing you tell them: worship God on the Sabbath or you cannot be saved! This is God's moral law. Is this the law that is written in their hearts (Rom.2:14,15)?

Pathetic, pathetic!!!!!! You really believe that I teach that salvation is obtained, that man is justified by keeping any law???????????? Please quote me at any time anywhere saying that??? Do you really think that the law was given for salvation or justification of any man?????? I use the law according to God's design and purpose for giving the law - to reveal sin - to reveal the knowledge of righteousness. I use the fourth commandment just as I do all other nine and NONE are designed to be used for justification.

What right do you have to subtract and divide any of the ten commandments from the others? Who gave you that right?? Just because the fourth is not listed in some of the lists means nothing as it is missing in the list that Jesus gave to the Rich Young Ruler and so should we conclude that Jesus did not believe in the fourth commandment and violated it?????????? Would not the violation of the fourth commandment by Christ make him a sinner or can you violate this law of God without impunity?????


You need to rethink not only your position but your senseless and pathetic arguments.

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