Leaving IFB to become SBC

[John of Japan]

And we still call ours "Faith Promise missions giving" And by the grace of Almighty God, our little church of 150 supports 50 different missionaries with varied amounts of $50-$100 each month.

God is good :applause:

Praise the Lord! Good for you.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Current SBC President Bryant Wright:

"If the average Southern Baptist knew that only about 19 cents of every [Cooperative Program] dollar winds up on the international mission field, I believe they too would feel a need for a radical reprioritization of missions giving."

TN Baptist and Reflector

In many IFB churches, "missions giving" will support bus ministries, Bible colleges, para-church ministries, mission boards, and radio stations also.

 

[dcorbett]

In many IFB churches, "missions giving" will support bus ministries, Bible colleges, para-church ministries, mission boards, and radio stations also.

Not in mine...all the monies given for missions goes to missions.

 

[glfredrick]

No, I never have the motive of support when we visit our supporting churches. We visit them to report what their support has done in Japan, just as Paul did when he went back to Antioch, his sending church, after his first missionary term in Acts 14:27--"And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles."

My motives even on deputation were always to be a blessing and to promote the cause of world missions, and leave the matter of support completely up to the Lord and the church. So I have never one time asked for monetary support or money for a special project. I've found that the Lord is perfectly able to lead the right churches to support us without my help. That's why this approach is sometimes called "faith missions." :saint:

Isn't that sort of like saying that you don't attend church to worship, but rather, it just sort of happens while you are there?

You and everyone in the churches both know that you are there for an offering of support. Saying something else (or leaving out a direct request) in no way changes the fact that you are there for an express purpose.

But, as was shared above, I don't fault you for raising support in the local church. That is the way it is done when the churches directly support mission efforts. No problem with that. Just a slight gig on how you are suggesting that you don't "ask" for support.

When I was a pastor in a GBC church, we too had deputation of our missionaries. I know the drill.

 

[glfredrick]

Maybe, maybe not.

Most SBC folks understand that serving the cause of cooperative missions involves not only international, but domestic missions. Furthermore, institutions like seminaries take a portion of the funds in order to train the domestic and international missionaries, as well as the future leaders of churches so that the SBC can have an educated clergy.

Moreover, in many state conventions, about 50% of the monies given by the churches stays within the state to strengthen the local cooperative efforts and ministries in our backyards.

So it is misleading to make it sound like a scandal because everyone who has ever bothered to check into things knows that there is a strategy for cooperative giving. It is NOT simply earmarked for international missions and then only 1/5 of the money actually makes it like your quote implies.

The SBC has intentionally adopted a Judea, Samaria, and to the uttermost parts of the earth strategy of ministry.

You may like it or dislike it, but you need to be fair, honest, complete and accurate about it.

And this is coming from a guy who doesn't consider himself a Southern Baptist anymore.

I think you have pegged it...

Since 1930, over $14.3 BILLION dollars have been given by churches to the Cooperative Program, with an annual average of 50% of those funds going to direct mission support.

Here are the numbers from the CP site:

http://www.cpmissions.net/2003/pdf/10-11ProoposedBudgetAnnualpage60.pdf

What is not mentioned, either in the quip about the small amount of money going to international missions above is the Lottie Moon Christmas offering that is taken in participating SBC churches IN ADDITION to the Cooperative Program funding. 100% of this annual special offering (and additionally a national missions offering named the Annie Armstrong Easter Offering, and state offerings taken often named after missions persons in that convention are taken annually) goes to international missions work.

http://www.imb.org/main/give/page.asp?StoryID=5523&LanguageID=1709

International Mission Board vital stats

• 5,013 missionaries (as of 4/2011)
• 29, 237 new churches*
• 360,876 baptisms*
• 505,297 new believers in discipleship*
*As reported in the 2010 Annual Statistical Report

Lottie Moon past and present
• 2010 goal: $175 million
• 2009 receipts: $148.9 million
• 2008 receipts: $141.3 million
• $3 billion given since offering’s inception
• $3,315 collected in 1888 for first offering, enough to send three women to China

How much does it cost to support a missionary?
• $46,700 a year (average)
• $3,890 a month
• $900 a week
• $128 a day
• $5.30 an hour
• $.09 a minute
Reported April 2011. Support includes housing, salary, children’s education, medical expenses, retirement and more.

Total IMB expenditures 2009 - $306.8 million
• Overseas missions - $255.4 million
• Missionary support - $221.9 million
• Field work - $33.5 million
• Stateside - $51.4 million

Total IMB expenditures 2008 - $318.9 million
• Overseas missions - $266.6 million
• Missionary support - $219.8 million
• Field work - $46.8 million
• Stateside - $52.3 million

For the Annie Armstrong Easter Offering fast facts:

http://www.anniearmstrong.com/fast_facts.asp/

AAEO national goal for 2011:
$70 million

Amount given to AAEO in 2009:
Year-end figures totaled more than $56 million

Amount of AAEO used to support missionaries and their work:
100%

Number of NAMB missionaries:
More than 5,000. Generally, a third of the number represents career missionaries, a third are short-term funded missionaries, and a third are Mission Service Corps missionaries.

Total 2010 NAMB budget:
$126,000,000

Amount of NAMB budget that comes from Annie:
46%

Amount of NAMB budget from Cooperative Program:
36%

 

[Mexdeaf]

Not in mine...all the monies given for missions goes to missions.

Note that I said "many"- yours is an exception.

Churches define and support "missions" in a variety of ways. Some separate 'home missions' from 'foreign missions'. Some support missions by 'faith-promise' giving, some give from the general fund of the church, some just take whatever amount is designated for missions.

There is no "right" or "wrong" way. I prefer FP giving, although our church currently does not practice that.

 

[abcgrad94]

Again, back to the OP. I was really wanting to hear from pastors about their experience with the SBC.

We can start a separate thread on the missions forum if anyone wants to continue a discussion on IFB/SBC ways of supporting missionaries.

 

[Tom Bryant]

My experience coming from the IFB to the SBC has been primarily positive. I went to a new Florida Pastors Weekend when I first got here. The primary emphasis of that was that the Florida Baptist Convention was in the business of helping churches to win people to Jesus, start new churches and strengthen Bible study. Truthfully, that was what the best of the IFB pastors and leaders like Dr. Roberson and Dr Rice talked about all the time so I felt at home.

 

[glfredrick]

Again, back to the OP. I was really wanting to hear from pastors about their experience with the SBC.

We can start a separate thread on the missions forum if anyone wants to continue a discussion on IFB/SBC ways of supporting missionaries.

Not sure what you want to hear...

A local congregation calls a pastor (with no help from outside sources unless they ask the Director of Missions (the local association leader) for resumes that he may have on hand. They decide, they call, they arrive at a pay package, and the pastor becomes the de facto leader of the church.

In some cases, where the church is receiving support from NAMB (North American Mission Board) the Board may assist in the pastoral search process and/or assist with the pay package, but the local church still has autonomous jurisdiction over their own business.

Local congregations generally choose to associate with a local association of churches. They send funds to the association to support the work of extending the church to the unchurched in the region, plus the work the association does to funnel resources to the local churches (they are sort of a liaison between the SBC and the local church). The association often has a library of materials that they can loan to the churches, and they can also often provide support for difficult issues, especially in times of pastoral discord, etc.

Local congregations also choose to unite with a state convention, which works in harmony with local associations, but is itself an autonomous agency with its own offices, staff, resources, etc. The state convention is also funded by giving from the churches, and typically, cooperative program money that is collected and passed forward (the local church dictates the percentage) and some of those funds are used to further the work of the state convention while a percentage is passed forward to the SBC to fund the agencies as dictated in posts above (Seminaries, ELC, IMB, NAMB, etc.).

All activities of the association and state convention are convened by meetings of "messengers" sent up to them from the local congregations, as is the business of the SBC as well. Each church must vote to recognize the messengers that it sends to these meetings, and the messengers are allowed then to speak for the local congregation, cast votes, raise motions, etc., in the business of the association, state convention, or SBC.

Day-to-day activity of an SBC pastor is much like any other pastor. Get out of bed around 9 am, get a cup of coffee, read the paper over breakfast, come to Baptist Board to check for new arguments, watch ESPN for about an hour, check back in with BB [snipped], meet someone who buys lunch, pop in at the local hospital to hold the hands of sick older givers, get back to BB to see who has called you stupid, start watching for the wife to get home from work so she doesn't catch you surfing BB and Facebook, ask her what's for supper, make up some story about your grueling day, watch the evening news then catch up on Idol, Dancing, etc., surf BB some more, hear your wife say she's ready for bed. Nod, "Uh huh..." stay up another 3 hours surfing BB. [snip] Some guys actually start to think about their sermon mid way through the week, especially if they see a good illustration on television. :tonofbricks:

 

[Salty]

In many IFB churches, "missions giving" will support bus ministries, Bible colleges, para-church ministries, mission boards, and radio stations also.

Not in mine...all the monies given for missions goes to missions.

Bus ministries - bring kids to church who otherwise cannot come*1 - now you have an inroad into the home - and the parents

Bible Colleges - Training young men to properly minister to effectively start new churches

Para-church - ie counseling center for unwed mothers - not only will the young ladies receive material and medical assistance, but the Gospel will also be shared with them

Radio Stations - for some the radio is there only church - for others - it was the means that they found the Lord and began their journey into a local church.

*1 - since most if not all States or Commonwealths have child seat laws, it may be impractical (not to mention illegal) for church members to bring neighborhood kids to church in their own vehicles.

All the above are example of missions - different people will be reached in different ways

Opps, I did it again, we are off the OP

 

[Mexdeaf]

Day-to-day activity of an SBC pastor is much like any other pastor. Get out of bed around 9 am, get a cup of coffee, read the paper over breakfast, come to Baptist Board to check for new arguments, watch ESPN for about an hour, check back in with BB [snipped], meet someone who buys lunch, pop in at the local hospital to hold the hands of sick older givers, get back to BB to see who has called you stupid, start watching for the wife to get home from work so she doesn't catch you surfing BB and Facebook, ask her what's for supper, make up some story about your grueling day, watch the evening news then catch up on Idol, Dancing, etc., surf BB some more, hear your wife say she's ready for bed. Nod, "Uh huh..." stay up another 3 hours surfing BB, then go to bed frustrated because you never get "any." Some guys actually start to think about their sermon mid way through the week, especially if they see a good illustration on television. :tonofbricks:

I wonder how many people will read that and think it is true??:laugh:

 

[Thousand Hills]

I wonder how many people will read that and think it is true??:laugh:

glfredrick almost had me convinced it was time for a career change. :laugh:

 

[Salty]

I wonder how many people will read that and think it is true??:laugh:

The quote just above the baseball - sums up my thinking

 

[Baptist Believer]

All activities of the association and state convention are convened by meetings of "messengers" sent up to them from the local congregations, as is the business of the SBC as well. Each church must vote to recognize the messengers that it sends to these meetings, and the messengers are allowed then to speak for the local congregation, cast votes, raise motions, etc., in the business of the association, state convention, or SBC.

I must disagree with you regarding the role of messengers. You describe them as having the role of delegates (that is, ones who are allowed "to speak for the local congregation"), not really messengers as they have occurred in the historical mainstream of SBC life. However, it has been more than a decade since I have participated in the annual meeting of the SBC, so things may have shifted to reflect the apparent growing desire of certain SBC leaders to pretend to have authority over local churches. However, to their credit, most SBC leaders clearly recognize the autonomy of the local church.

The role of messengers in every congregation I have been a part of, as well as the way the role was described in my church and denomination classes, is to be a person who greets the larger body of cooperating Baptist with messages of fellowship, concern and unity. Each messenger, when voting, is to vote their conscience according to their understanding of scripture and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but they do not represent the membership church in any political or spritiual sense. When they return to their congregations, they report back on the work of cooperating Baptists to the local congregation. There is no authority delivered either direction since the state and national conventions, as well as the local churches, are autonomous.

 

[TCGreek]

As a proud SB, I value the autonomy of the local church far above the Convention.

 

[John of Japan]

Again, back to the OP. I was really wanting to hear from pastors about their experience with the SBC.

We can start a separate thread on the missions forum if anyone wants to continue a discussion on IFB/SBC ways of supporting missionaries.

I didn't intend to hijack your thread nor to debate, just wanted to speak to your one point about Scriptural support for your decision. Sorry about that!

 

[abcgrad94]

I didn't intend to hijack your thread nor to debate, just wanted to speak to your one point about Scriptural support for your decision. Sorry about that!

That's ok, JoJ. I appreciate your input.:thumbsup: About ABWE--we have been very impressed with all of their missionaries we've met. They are very well trained and really seem to love the Lord. You can tell they have accountability and integrity.

 

[abcgrad94]

Not sure what you want to hear...

Day-to-day activity of an SBC pastor is much like any other pastor.

Well, what I'd really like to hear is that there is some denomination of "Baptist" out there that is perfect. You know, the pastor and his family are treated like kings, er, I mean, like real people, church members WANT to come to church, actually come ON TIME, sit on the (gasp) front row, volunteer to teach, give the pastor raises, pay him on time and in full every month, tell him he has great ideas and they are willing to jump on board with those ideas, are ready for CHANGE, listen quietly during church, realize he needs family time, etc.:laugh:

Somehow I think I might be chasing a rainbow. . .Maybe it's just a case of covetousness and I need to go repent.:tonofbricks:

 

[John of Japan]

That's ok, JoJ. I appreciate your input.:thumbsup: About ABWE--we have been very impressed with all of their missionaries we've met. They are very well trained and really seem to love the Lord. You can tell they have accountability and integrity.

I believe that to be true. We're with BWM, but I've known various ABWE people down through the years. However, in Japan the ABWE field council system has caused problems and dissension. In your questioning about the SBC missions system, you might ask how their missionary field council system works. I'm not familiar with the SBC system, but I know from experience that field councils can become denominational in structure and oppress the individual missionary--a problem that can occur regardless of the board being SBC, IFB, or any other group. (BWM has no field councils, but does have accountability in a different system.)

 

[glfredrick]

I must disagree with you regarding the role of messengers. You describe them as having the role of delegates (that is, ones who are allowed "to speak for the local congregation"), not really messengers as they have occurred in the historical mainstream of SBC life. However, it has been more than a decade since I have participated in the annual meeting of the SBC, so things may have shifted to reflect the apparent growing desire of certain SBC leaders to pretend to have authority over local churches. However, to their credit, most SBC leaders clearly recognize the autonomy of the local church.

The role of messengers in every congregation I have been a part of, as well as the way the role was described in my church and denomination classes, is to be a person who greets the larger body of cooperating Baptist with messages of fellowship, concern and unity. Each messenger, when voting, is to vote their conscience according to their understanding of scripture and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but they do not represent the membership church in any political or spritiual sense. When they return to their congregations, they report back on the work of cooperating Baptists to the local congregation. There is no authority delivered either direction since the state and national conventions, as well as the local churches, are autonomous.

In the most technical of senses, you are correct. I was giving an overview.