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Regeneration: Instantaneous or Elongated

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
On another thread, I voiced the opinion that the New Birth is not a instantaneous event. Here is something I wrote on the subject a while ago to start discussion.

Everyone who is predestined is effectually called by God at some time in their lives. A large congregation may listen to a gospel sermon, but perhaps just one or two are affected by it; or someone may hear a portion of scripture, or perhaps just look at the beauty of nature and it sets him on a train of thought which will eventually lead him to Christ. This is the effectual call (1). It is the first movement of God upon the unconverted Spirit and as such it is entirely sovereign and monergistic. The subject, the unconverted person, has no part in it. It may be thought of as the moment of conception of the New Birth, the implantation of spiritual life.

This call leads to awakening or quickening, when men and women begin to think seriously about the things of God for the first time. Conviction is a further step along the road, when awakened souls come to see themselves as sinners under the just condemnation of God. Now conviction is not just having a bad conscience or a sense of shame- many unsaved people have that. Those who are truly convicted by the Holy Spirit see their sin as God sees it- in all its vileness and wickedness in rebellion against the Creator, and they come to understand the justice of God in sending sinners to hell.

Then, finally, they come to understand from the word of God (whether preached or read) that Jesus Christ has done everything necessary to reconcile them to God and is standing ready to receive them. They repent and believe, whereupon God justifies them (that is, He judicially declares them righteous since Christ has paid the penalty for their sin upon the cross) and glorifies them by seating them with Christ in the heavenly places (Eph. 2:9; Col. 3:3). [This may seem mind-boggling, but that is where God sees Christians as being, even while they are still on Earth. See the next chapter for a fuller explanation]

Does repentance always come before faith? Not necessarily; as we have seen, people’s conversion experiences differ widely. In days gone by, when preachers used to preach on hell and judgement much more often that they do today, men and women would become conscious of their sin before they found peace with God through Christ. Today, however, the doctrine of sin and repentance is preached less and less frequently, and many people ‘accept’ Christ but only later (if at all) come to see themselves as sinners. What is certain is that no one is truly born again unless both faith and repentance have taken place. You cannot have Christ for your Saviour if you will not also have Him also for your Lord (Luke 6:46ff). It is better to see faith and repentance as two sides of the same coin. Our faith in Christ must be a repentant faith, and our repentance a turning from sin to follow Christ. Although repentance and faith are human actions, they have a Divine origin (Acts 11:18; Eph 2:8). Salvation is all of God.

So we now have a list which reads, Foreknowledge, predestination, calling, awakening, conviction, repentance/faith, justification and glorification. So just where does regeneration fit in to this scheme? Some theologians, most notably John Murray (2) have placed it right after calling, on the grounds that, if the call is effectual, regeneration must have taken place. This view, however, leads to difficulty. There are several scriptures which speak of people who have gone some way along the road of salvation and then turned back (eg. Matt. 13:20f; Heb. 6:4ff). Nicodemus himself might be described as ‘awakened’ since he took the trouble to seek out Jesus; but his conversation with the Lord (John 3:4, 9) shows that he was a long way from ‘seeing’ the Kingdom of God. A natural birth begins at conception and nine months or so must pass before it is completed. If the infant dies in the womb, its birthday cannot be celebrated and it is regarded as never having been born at all. In the same way, it appears that someone can become interested in Christianity, be concerned about his sin and even be quite intrigued with the Gospel, but later lose interest and fall away completely. Such people cannot have been born again since true conversion is a work of God and as such cannot be lost (John 10: 28-29), and yet there seems to have been some work upon their hearts. Moreover, if we think of regeneration as an instantaneous event, then preaching the Gospel becomes superfluous; either people are regenerate, in which case they are saved already, or else they are spiritually dead and cannot respond to the Gospel call. A better way of viewing regeneration is to see it as a process which commences with God’s call and ends with His pronouncement of justification, up to which point it is possible for someone to fall away, but after which they are saved forever (3).

So we now have an Ordo Salutis which looks like this:-

Foreknowledge

Predestination

Effectual Calling___________________________________

Awakening

Conviction..............................................REGENERATION (NEW BIRTH)

Repentance & Faith

Justification_______________________________________

Sealing

Adoption

Sanctification

Glorification

With this understanding of regeneration, a preacher can preach the Gospel trusting that some in his congregation will be those whom the Holy Spirit has awakened to the things of God, so that the gospel sermon, by His grace, can bring them to conviction, repentance and faith.

Full article here.
http://marprelate.wordpress.com/2010/08/15/new-birth-7-the-order-of-the-new-birth/

Steve
 
Well Brother, "regenration" is a new birth. A new birth doesn't happen over a period of time, but is instaneous. When a baby is born, its born right then, and not over a period of time, Sure, there's first conception(seed being planted), and then the egg grows until it is a baby ready to be born. All this takes place in the womb. That's just like when God draws someone. When God begins drawing someone, a seed is planted. Over time, that person hears preaching, and maybe even someone who just talks to them about the bible. This is like watering a plant, or in the case of the fetus, maturation of the baby in the womb. But when the blood of Christ is given to that person, and they get that drink of living water, then, and only then, are they born again/born from above, and regenerated. Regeneration and salvation, to me, are interchangeable terms, meaning the same thing.

i am I AM's!!

Willis
 

Winman

Active Member
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

The scriptures say we are the sons of God NOW. But it also shows that being born again, we are in a state of development, not unlike human birth. A person is living the moment they are conceived and begins to develop. A person is not fully developed at nine months when they are born, they continue to develop for many years. Being born again is the same.
 

Jerome

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
"O, mark how simple the way of salvation is. It is, "Look! look! look!" Four letters, and two of them alike! "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth." Some divines want a week to tell what you are to do to be saved; but God the Holy Ghost only wants four letters to do it. "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth." How simple is that way of salvation!" —Charles Spurgeon
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Birth is an event not a process. Nobody has a birthdate that is a 9 month span. Even a birth certificate narrows the event to the very minute. Trying to say the new birth is over a period of time is to redefine the very word "birth"
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Birth is an event not a process. Nobody has a birthdate that is a 9 month span. Even a birth certificate narrows the event to the very minute. Trying to say the new birth is over a period of time is to redefine the very word "birth"
Plus, it would be interesting to know the difference in someone who is 14% reborn versus someone 35% reborn versus someone 96% reborn versus someone who is all the way reborn.

I guess they think of regeneration like sanctification? :confused:
 

Winman

Active Member
Birth is an event not a process. Nobody has a birthdate that is a 9 month span. Even a birth certificate narrows the event to the very minute. Trying to say the new birth is over a period of time is to redefine the very word "birth"

I agree with you completely Webdog. The development I was speaking of is what we would call sanctification. It is a growing in the Lord. But we are a new creature the moment we believe as you said.
 

Winman

Active Member
Believeing is a decision that cannot be undone. Imagine a soldier who runs over a roadside bomb. His leg is badly mangled. He asks the doctors if his leg can be saved. They tell him yes, but it will be useless. He would have great difficulty walking, he would suffer great pain in trying to do so, he would require many surguries, and he would likely suffer serious health problems. They tell him if they are allowed to remove the damaged part of the leg and replace it with a prosthetic leg he would recover quickly and in short time resume an active and fairly normal life. He agrees and the damaged portion of his leg is removed. It takes the soldier a few months to become accustomed to the artificial limb, but he works hard and quickly does so.

This is a decision that cannot be undone. When you believe on Christ you are born again and are sealed by the Spirit. This cannot be undone. But just like a new limb, it takes time and work to be fully functional.

What was the seal that Abraham received showing his faith? Circumcision. Can that be undone?
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Well Brother, "regenration" is a new birth. A new birth doesn't happen over a period of time, but is instaneous. When a baby is born, its born right then, and not over a period of time, Sure, there's first conception(seed being planted), and then the egg grows until it is a baby ready to be born. All this takes place in the womb. That's just like when God draws someone. When God begins drawing someone, a seed is planted. Over time, that person hears preaching, and maybe even someone who just talks to them about the bible. This is like watering a plant, or in the case of the fetus, maturation of the baby in the womb. But when the blood of Christ is given to that person, and they get that drink of living water, then, and only then, are they born again/born from above, and regenerated.
That is exactly what I'm talking about. Surely it is very few people's experience that they go from total unbelief to faith in an instant. There is first an interest in matters of religion, then a questioning, then conviction of sin, then a realization of the need of a saviour and only then is there a turning to Christ as Lord and Saviour. Is something like this not the experience of most of us?

On another thread, Skandelon quoted Spurgeon:-
"If I am to preach the faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. Am I only to preach faith to those who have it? Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners."
Amen! But nor does it make sense to preach to those who are dead unless God will make them alive as in Ezek 37 (see especially v5). But even here there is an elongated process: New life does not come to the dry bones at once; it comes in two stages (vs 4-8 & 9-10).

Steve
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
"O, mark how simple the way of salvation is. It is, "Look! look! look!" Four letters, and two of them alike! "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth." Some divines want a week to tell what you are to do to be saved; but God the Holy Ghost only wants four letters to do it. "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth." How simple is that way of salvation!" —Charles Spurgeon

And who says what after this was said? Did they look and are they saved?
Methinks we tried to cover this in another thread. Emp. on tried.
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Birth is an event not a process. Nobody has a birthdate that is a 9 month span. Even a birth certificate narrows the event to the very minute. Trying to say the new birth is over a period of time is to redefine the very word "birth"

I agree with you brother even if you do not agree with me, for that which is born of the spirit is spirit and is no longer flesh and blood.
 

Dr. Bob

Administrator
Administrator
I believe that the steps TO regeneration may involved time. (These MUST happen - effective calling of His elect, awakening, convicting, etc)

I believe the steps FOLLOWING regeneration may involve time. (These WILL happen - repentance, faith, calling on the Lord, conversion, sanctification, glorification)

But I believe regeneration itself IS that instant when the Spirit changes the heart and bestows new life.
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Well Brother, "regenration" is a new birth. A new birth doesn't happen over a period of time, but is instaneous. When a baby is born, its born right then, and not over a period of time...

Well Brother, you and I agree on that much of it!

I believe it takes about as long for the spiritual 'birth from above' to occur as it did for Christ to say the words "Lazarus come forth".

It took a whole lot longer to loose Lazarus from his graveclothes and to get the stench of a dead man off from him than it did for Christ to make him alive.
 
Well Brother, you and I agree on that much of it!

I believe it takes about as long for the spiritual 'birth from above' to occur as it did for Christ to say the words "Lazarus come forth".

It took a whole lot longer to loose Lazarus from his graveclothes and to get the stench of a dead man off from him than it did for Christ to make him alive.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

it took me awhile to get rid of graveclothes
 
:thumbsup::thumbsup:

it took me awhile to get rid of graveclothes

Bro. Jeff, I agree with this wholeheartedly!! One does not get the new bith(regeneration) without the blood, nor does someone obtain salvation without the blood. So again, how can anyone be regenerated and not saved?? Being born again/born from above isn't like a "step up" process, where you this now, and then later you get that. Being born by God comes in one lump sum, plain and simple.

i am I AM's!!

Willis
 

savedbymercy

New Member
convicted:

When a baby is born, its born right then,

Yes, but the baby was conceived before it was brought forth in birth 9 months after. Thats why abortion would be considered killing, it does not have to be when the baby is brought forth in birth before it had life given to it of God..
 
convicted:



Yes, but the baby was conceived before it was brought forth in birth 9 months after. Thats why abortion would be considered killing, it does not have to be when the baby is brought forth in birth before it had life given to it of God..

But again, you're missing the point. Jesus stated, "Except ye eat of My flesh, and drink of my BLOOD, ye have no life in you". So without the blood, you have no "eternal life" in you. So, one can not be regenerated(i.e. the new birth) without the blood.

i am I AM's!!

Willis
 
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glfredrick

New Member
First, thanks for at least bringing into the discussion all the component parts of what we call "salvation."

Regeneration is one of those parts.

While we place them in a logical order (ordo salutis), there may be no actual time involved, as most of the components of salvation occur in the instant that God supernaturally does what only He can do.

I believe that Martin Luther took up your argument, and it launched the Protestant Reformation -- justification is instant and of God alone. Millard Erickson summarizes, "Justification is God's action pronouncing sinners righteous in his sight. We have been forgiven and declared to have fulfilled all that God's law requires of us. Historically, it was this issue that preoccupied Martin Luther and led to his break from the Roman Catholic Church." (Millard J. Erickson, Christian Theology, 2nd ed. (Grand Rapids: Baker Academic, 1998), 968.)

The difference between Catholicism and Martin Luther on justification can be seen in which word they use when explaining the way a believer is pronounced righteous—infusion or imputation. The RC Council of Trent proclaims justification primarily as an infusion of grace which changes an individual's spiritual and moral nature. Therefore, justification is a process where believers actually become righteous. Ultimately, a Christian earns eternal life as he or she becomes righteous.

Martin Luther strenuously opposed this view, holding that justification is a declarative act whereby God imputes the righteousness of Christ to the believer. Christ's righteousness justifies a Christian, not his or her own righteousness or good works. Essentially, justification is transformative in Catholicism, whereas justification is declarative for Martin Luther, and for us as well.
 

savedbymercy

New Member
convicted:

But again, you're missing the point.

Sorry, you are missing the point. There must be a generation before there can be a birth from that generation. Thats seen from the beginning with Adam. Gen 5:1

1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

"
Except ye eat of My flesh, and drink of my BLOOD, ye have no life in you".

That does not contradict a thing I said, in fact, it only confirms it, how can one eat spiritually, if there is no spiritual life already existent. Surely you know Christ flesh and blood are spiritual don't you ? Matt 5:

6Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

These blessed ones are those who appropriate the body and blood of Christ. They had been given Spiritual Life to do that !

So, one can not be regenerated(i.e. the new birth) without the blood.

Where did I state that you could. However the blood does not in itself give one New Birth, but its the reason why one does receive new birth, those having their sins forgiven by the blood of Christ, are the only ones who have the right to a new birth. That right is theirs because of Christ blood giving them Justification unto Life.

Rom 5:18

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

All those Christ Blood JustifiedZoe [Rom 5:9] receive a Spiritual Life. A New Birth..Thats why it's Justification of Life came upon all for whom Christ died.

Justification is a legal Term, but life is a principle of life or vitality. Its the greek word zōē:


life

a) the state of one who is possessed of vitality or is animate

b) every living soul

2) life

Its also expressed in acts 11:18

When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

This is the same thing, Christ gives all of His People He represented and died for Repentance unto Life, again Spiritual Life which manifests itself in Faith and Repentance.
 

MB

Well-Known Member
If Salvation is such long process and regeneration still means being made new. Why the conviction afterwards???? When scripture says plainly that those born of God sin not. I know that if I were in the position of being perfect, ("sinning in my past for ever"), I wouldn't want to look back. So what purpose is there if we are in effect saved first, and then convicted afterwards. Just seems rahter shocking that this tool of the Holy Spirit known as conviction wouldn't be used to draw men in the first place to Christ.

What is the tool used in drawing a man?. Is it a Lure? or a rope.
MB
 
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