What is open theism?

Well if time were linear that's all good. But its relative to perspective. Since God doesn't perceive time like us nor think quite like us, then to assume to know just how God foresees anything is just one big assumption.

The whole debate puts God within constraints, which He is not.

 

Exactly, we need to learn to be as comfortable with what we do not and cannot know about God as we are about what we do and can know. Otherwise we get all kinds of weird doctrines floating around.

 

Most open view proponents would have the future partly open and partly settled.....meaning God can determine whatever He wants to about the future while leaving other parts open, so I am not sure this would be the greatest challenge.

 

I'd be interested in seeing some citations for this statement.

In the theological circles where this debate was held and finished this issue, that of predictive prophecy, was never fully resolved.

Since most, and I mean the vast majority, of Open Theists hold to a radical notion of free will it would be odd that they believe God can "determine" whatever he desires. If they do hold to this is obfuscates their preliminary case that God is unable to impact or unwilling to know His creation.

Given that Open Theism is a form of hyper-Arminianism to suggest that God can determine whatever He wants stands in contrast to their overall position. Again, I'm going to have to ask for citations because I haven't read that position.

 

have to ask the person whio wrote in the Inspired text that "God does not tempt anyone to sin, nor can He be tempted to sin" same person said that IF we sin, its because of our own ;evil: desires of the flesh getting worked out and on!

 

Here is one document where it is discussed.....http://www.alanrhoda.net/papers/opentheism.pdf

I am sure if you google it you could find many others but no open view theists that I have read or encountered hold to a totally open future. Perhaps the version you are familiar with is not really accurate in describing most. Boyd would probably be the most popular proponent espousing and discussing this view....Hope that helps.:love2:

 

I believe man can have free will, and God can still bring about what he has determined.

The best analogy is chess. Imagine playing chess with God who has foreknowledge. No matter what strategy you devise, he knows it beforehand and can counter it. Does that prevent you from making any move you wish? No. Yes, your options are limited, but nevertheless you can always make the move you choose to make.

There is no such thing as unlimited options. You can choose to wear a red shirt today, or a blue shirt. Your own choice limits you, if you choose the red shirt, you cannot wear the blue shirt, and vice versa. But you cannot wear both. If a person thinks free will means unlimited options, that is a fallacy.

 

Are you sure about that?

 

Nice shirt!

 

Reply to Ivon Denosovich,

First, Ivon, pay no attention to what Calvinists say about Van, as they are all "closed theists" and therefore seek to attribute false doctrine to me. I agree with some points of Calvinism and with some points of Arminianism, and with some points of Open Theism, but I fundamentally disagree with many points of all three. I do not beat around the bush, ask me a question and I will give you a clear, biblically based answer, with references to the supporting scripture.

And now to answer your question. Yes, Calvinism states (according to Boettner) that exhaustive knowledge of the future presupposes the future is exhaustively predestined. Rather than accept this, some Calvinists hide their "closed theism" with arcane verbiage such as compatilism. This says we choose what we desire and since, because of the fall, we will always desire sinful stuff, we "choose" to sin. But note we are not free to choose to seek God through faith in Christ, so we can only choose one outcome, death, based on our fallen condition. However scripture says God sets before us life or death, not death only, and begs us to choose life. Therefore the "compatilism theory" of behavior is unbiblical, making Calvinism unbiblical.

Turning back to "open theism" and some of the false statements that have been made, lets assume that if God desires to make something occur in the future, it will occur in the future. God does as He pleases, nothing is impossible with God, and God is all-powerful, meaning nothing can thwart Him. So whatever God has decided, predetermined, declared, planned, etc God will bring about, will cause to happen. So whatever part or all of the future that God has predetermined, predestined, He knows and will bring about. So the issue is not that God knows His prophecies, they do not challenge open theism at all. The issue is has God chosen not to know the future exhaustively. And the biblical answer is yes, God has chosen not to know the future exhaustively. There are many passages that make this point, let me give you a few: (1) God puts our forgiven sins out of "sight" he remembers them no more forever. Closed theists say the dozen or so verses that say this do not mean what they say. I take God at His word. (2) When Abraham was about to kill Isaac, God said stop, "now I know" which indicates God did not know beforehand what Abraham would do. (4) Now God can and often does search our hearts and knows what we will do, so this is an exception but it shows God can choose not to search hearts and know what we will choose to do if a circumstances arises. On the other hand, He can, and often does. That is how Jesus could say that if the folks in another town had seen His miracles, they would have repented. But all the biblical examples of searching the hearts of men refers to men who are alive with attitudes and attributes. Jesus tells Peter how Peter will die. This tells us Jesus knew Peter's heart and knew if the circumstances were brought about where Peter could sacrifice himself for his Lord, Peter would do it! (5) But on the other hand Jesus who Peter said was "all knowing" did not know the time of His return. Again, Closed theists say Jesus really knew. I take God at His world.

Every-time God offers a conditional covenant, scripture teaches God provides an opportunity for us to choose the outcome. If we do this, God will do that, but if we do something else, God will do something else. If we repent, God will relent. Thus, the opportunity to choose more than one outcome is offered by God over and over in scripture. Closed theists say all this is an illusion, the outcome was foreordained. I take God at His word.

So parts of Open theism are biblical, but certainly other parts, i.e God is surprised, are not biblical. The same can be said for Calvinism and Arminianism.

 

One of the keys to understanding this topic is to ask "How does God know the future?" The Bible says God causes the future He predetermined, i.e. He declares [what He has determined to cause] the end [what will occur by the power of God] from the beginning [whenever He declared a future event, i.e prophecy.]

Now an unbiblical view is that God knows the future because He is "outside of time" and therefore from His perspective, the future has already happened. This is pagan metaphysics and has absolutely no support in scripture. It postulates an existent future, on the other side of veil of time, which God knows as exhaustively as He knows the present and the past. But all the verses where God makes plans for the future are nullified by this view, and therefore is something men have invented and poured into their understanding of God.

 

Well..

We do know God MUST exist outside our time/space, our physical reality, or else he would be subject to being affected by same laws we have to heed to and observe...

Also, IF part of this Universe"stuck in it" would be a Panthestic God, not bible one...

So since he exists outside time and space, his own 'seperate reality" so to speak, call it "heaven" if you will...

He does indeed know what will come to pass, as to Him time has no effect on Him. so he will see everyhting as being done 'right now"

So God knows everything based upon both what He determines to happen, and what he allows to happen, and ALWAYS has foreknowledge of what will be permitted to happen by Him...

make sense?

 

I do not quite understand Van's view, but what you have said here we KNOW not to be true. Jesus could walk on water, and that was in time.

 

Jesusfan, you just repeated the pagan position once again. No scripture supports your view. You are claiming to know how eternity works, based on philosophy, not scripture. You say no time and I can conjecture spiritual time, that is an attribute of God. You see when you make stuff up, anything can be asserted, even pink elephants in orbit around Mars. The Bible tells us God knows what He has predetermined to bring about, to cause to happen, and He knows men will do certain things if He had chosen to bring about a certain circumstance, like performing miracles in some other town, Matthew 11:23. You have no verse that supports yet another method of God knowing the future.

So why not stick with scripture?

 

I have been here...

Bible says God Knows ALL THINGS...

Everything than can be possible known God knows it...

he does need to learn or know anything "new" as he already knows everything from Alpha to Omega...

 

This is blasphemous and unbiblical thought;

 

It is indeed. Van employs identical arguments as the open theist Boyd uses to support his unorthodox and heretical denial of the exhaustive forknowledge of God.

 

To the past couple posters...what was the purpose of having Abraham do what he did and more importantly the need to tell him to stop if there was no chance he was going to kill Isaac?