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why MUST God Election be based Upon his predetermined Will, and Not just Foreknowledg
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
Just so. 'So then, it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.'
Steve
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
That is a gross mischaracterization of what most scholarly non-Calvinists believe. Most non-Cal scholars don't teach or believe God chooses to save individuals based upon His foreknowledge of them choosing to believe. That is very limited and weak way of viewing our understanding of the doctrine of election and predestination. I'd recommend studying the scholars to see how they really define election and predestination.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
AMEN! Those known to be wanting to earn their way to heaven through running after the law and working their way through good deeds were the Jews. Thus, Paul was communicating the point that he summarizes as he ends that 9th chapter:
"What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works."
The verse you are quoting has nothing to do with people responding in faith to the gospel, but instead it is about those "who pursued a law of righteousness as if it were by works" (willing and running).
OK, let's leave out the contentious bit. 'It is.........of God who shows mercy.'
Steve
Steve
ROFL......yea thats kinda how I see it too....but I will add that it is all part of your Salvation experience. For me, & I think for guys like Paul & Augustine its pretty much Gods knocking you off your high horse where maybe others didnt need it to come to salvation. To an idiot like me the Lord had to hold my hand through everything.....and all I could do is watch in amazement (and love). Now this part about loosing my salvation, that I dont buy.
isn't the Arminian position though that God has provided the means by which one might become saved, gave His Son on the Cross, sent for the Holy Spirit into World, but up to us to reject/accept His free gift?
That God foresees those who will '"choose life" and that is why written in Book of Life?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Right! He is showing mercy on "the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, [but who] have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith," just as Paul explained.
This comment put a smile on my face. Good one Annsni!:godisgood: John 15:16 is not a scripture to choke on but rather rest in.
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Much could be said here and I encourage you to study the various scholars to get a more in-depth understanding, but just to summarize I'll say this:
· The Calvinist says that God elects certain unbelievers and predestines them to become believers.
· The Arminian says that God elects to provide reconciliation for all men through faith; He has predestined those who freely believe to become his children.
Note: There are other aspects of God's elective purpose. He elected Israel to bring God's special revelation, through the prophets, scriptures, apostles etc... in order to provide redemption for the entire world. But there is never indication that election unto salvation is applied to certain individuals to the neglect of all others...based on foresight or not. References to God's foreknowledge are in regard to God's plan to bring in the Gentiles all along, a mystery to the people of that day, but foreknown by God since the beginning. Much more could be said, but I urge you to study it and get to know it before rejecting it outright.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
No wonder all of you reject Arminianism. If this is what I thought Arminianism was I would reject it too. :tear:
...are you describing what the op asked or open theism?
Surely by now you know that to be a gross caricature of the n-c/n-a position!
It's what I see the "election based on foreknowlege" as being. I've heard people say that God chooses to elect those who will choose Him. He sees that they will choose Him and so He decided to elect them. Having small kids, this is what I see in that scenerio.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
That may be what someone who is not very knowledgable on the subject may say to explain it to a child, but its not an accurate dipection of what we believe.It's what I see the "election based on foreknowlege" as being. I've heard people say that God chooses to elect those who will choose Him. He sees that they will choose Him and so He decided to elect them. Having small kids, this is what I see in that scenerio.
We don't believe God elects certain individuals to be saved, period. We believe God elects to provide the means of salvation, first to the Jew and then to the Gentile (Rom. 1:18-19); he predestined, or planned before time began to bring this appeal through Israel to the rest of the world. This was a mystery to the world during that time and was just being made known to them, but it was foreknown by God all along.
The parable of the wedding banquet perfectly illustrates this view of election by the way. He first sends appointed messengers to invite Israel, then he sends them to the street to invite whosoever would come. Only those who came clothed in faith were accepted.
But you do say that God allows you to make the ultimate decision wether to receive/reject Jesus Christ...
He does all that he can do, provides the Gift/Grace, up to you to actually ;claim your gift"
Cals say that God does it all start to finish, but you still have to receive the Gift...
So what do you say election is?
psalms109:31
Active Member
Trust in Christ
God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy on. All throughout scripture we see those who believe trust in Jesus has obtained what those who have been elected have not.
I am not going to argue or come up with some reason that my mind can understand, just believe. All I know is to humble ourselves, to come to Him, to learn from Him, to trust in Him and Jesus will lead us and guide us to salvation. It has always been Jesus leading us from the beginning. We are always trying to find a reason why something happens and miss out of the greater blessing them coming to Christ. We in our nature love to focus on the negative aspect of things. We can't help ourselves, until we recognize our problems. Have you heard it said for one mistake, you have to do ten good things to bring us back in the favor of man, just for them to forget the one bad thing we have done. God is not like us.
God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy on. All throughout scripture we see those who believe trust in Jesus has obtained what those who have been elected have not.
I am not going to argue or come up with some reason that my mind can understand, just believe. All I know is to humble ourselves, to come to Him, to learn from Him, to trust in Him and Jesus will lead us and guide us to salvation. It has always been Jesus leading us from the beginning. We are always trying to find a reason why something happens and miss out of the greater blessing them coming to Christ. We in our nature love to focus on the negative aspect of things. We can't help ourselves, until we recognize our problems. Have you heard it said for one mistake, you have to do ten good things to bring us back in the favor of man, just for them to forget the one bad thing we have done. God is not like us.
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skan,
what happened before israel was a nation; from adam to abraham?: your scheme does not address them?
also again a wrong use of foreknowledge
what happened before israel was a nation; from adam to abraham?: your scheme does not address them?
also again a wrong use of foreknowledge
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Well there are different types of election. One could be individually elected for a special service (i.e. Jonah was chosen to preach in Nineveh). A nation can be elected to bring the Messiah (i.e. Israel) and elected to bring the redemption to the world (i.e. the elected apostles to which John 15:16 mentioned above refers)
With regard to election unto salvation, scripture typically addresses it in corporate terms. I don't believe the scripture ever teaches that God has elected certain individuals to become believers. Instead, it teaches that He as elected to provide salvation through the appeal of the gospel to groups, "first to the Jew and then to the Gentile." This is the ingrafting Paul refers to in Romans 11. The Gentiles were being grafted in (taken the gospel) while the Jews were being cut off (blinded from the gospel.)
God has predestined or purpose beforehand to conform all those who do believe into the image of his son and adopt them as his children, but the scripture never speaks of God predestining certain unbelievers to become believers as Calvinism suggests.