-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Does hebrews 9:28 teach jesus Died For Some, NOT ALL, Gods Elect?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
Seems clear that Author stating here that Jesus died as atonement for the many, but not the All...
Would this teach He is High Priest atoning/dieing on behalf of those elect of God only?
No.. Not if you understand the comparison of the High Priest and the Atonement.
To whom was the OT atonement made on behalf of.. All Israel (Heb 9:19 bears this out) and not all Israel was saved. However those who, by faith, received the propitiation made the blood would bear those sins away... (yet we know that the blood of animals does not take away sins and were actually saved by faith, we note the meaning, method and manner it speaks to).. and the High Priest offered that atonement before God for sin.
Therefore, Christ being our High Priest was our propitiation and not ours only but for the sins of the whole world (Note how John ALWAYS uses the term 'whole world' to refer to wicked sinful man). Yet only those who, by faith, receive that propitiation (Rom 3:25) have His blood applied to our sins and they are born away.. thus He bears the sins of Many.
Last edited by a moderator:
No.. Not if you understand the comparison of the High Priest and the Atonement.
To whom was the OT atonement made on behalf of.. All Israel (Heb 9:19 bears this out) and not all Israel was saved. However those who, by faith, received the propitiation made the blood would bear those sins away... (yet we know that the blood of animals does not take away sins and were actually saved by faith, we note the meaning, method and manner it speaks to).. and the High Priest offered that atonement before God for sin.
Therefore, Christ being our High Priest was our propitiation and not ours only but for the sins of the whole world (Note how John ALWAYS uses the term 'whole world' to refer to wicked sinful man). Yet only those who, by faith, receive that propitiation (Rom 3:25) have His blood applied to our sins and they are born away.. thus He bears the sins of Many.
So Jesus death atoned for/effectual towards those who were the elect, just depends on how you understand just HOW God makes the election process happen!
So Jesus death atoned for/effectual towards those who were the elect, just depends on how you understand just HOW God makes the election process happen!
No.. it depends on whether or not Christ had to fulfill the Law regarding the Sacrifice of Atonement. If he had to fulfill the Law in order that His sacrifice was holy and righteous then scripture necessitates His death was for all but effectual only upon/toward those of faith. The Atonement has elements that can not be divorced from it's purpose.. the sacrifice had to be without spot, it had to be slain on behalf of all, and of course it had to be on the day of atonement (which is important to remember since it fulfills the Law). Additionally, the High Priest is the only one who was permitted to kill the sacrifice.. Jesus stated that no man kills him.. he lays it down and takes it back up.. And we know that scripture calls Him the Great High Priest and the only one permitted to enter the Holy of Holies.
Last edited by a moderator:
... those who, by faith, received the propitiation
Yet only those who, by faith, receive that propitiation (Rom 3:25) have His blood applied to our sins and they are born away.. thus He bears the sins of Many.
Either the Lord has propitiated the sins of every single human being past,present and future or He made propitiation for His elect alone.It's not a potential propitiation. There is no such thing as "receiving the propitiation" in the Bible.
No.. it depends on whether or not Christ had to fulfill the Law regarding the Sacrifice of Atonement. If he had to fulfill the Law in order that His sacrifice was holy and righteous then scripture necessitates His death was for all but effectual only upon/toward those of faith. The Atonement has elements that can not be divorced from it's purpose.. the sacrifice had to be without spot, it had to be slain on behalf of all, and of course it had to be on the day of atonement (which is important to remember since it fulfills the Law). Additionally, the High Priest is the only one who was permitted to kill the sacrifice.. Jesus stated that no man kills him.. he lays it down and takes it back up.. And we know that scripture calls Him the Great High Priest and the only one permitted to enter the Holy of Holies.
So 4 point Cals would agree with Arminians that Jesus death was in a propiation/sacrifice atoning for sins of Whole woorld...
Cals of my understanding would say paid in full "on paper" but effectively applied ONLY to those elected by His soverign Will, election on individual basis...
Classical Arms would say paid sin of World for "real" but only applied to those who God saw in His Foreknowledge accepting Christ, and He predestined the plan they would get into once decided to accept Christ by faith?
Either the Lord has propitiated the sins of every single human being past,present and future or He made propitiation for His elect alone.It's not a potential propitiation. There is no such thing as "receiving the propitiation" in the Bible.
I realize that.. that is why I referred my point back to the extra biblical book of Romans
So 4 point Cals would agree with Arminians that Jesus death was in a propiation/sacrifice atoning for sins of Whole woorld...
Cals of my understanding would say paid in full "on paper" but effectively applied ONLY to those elected by His soverign Will, election on individual basis...
Classical Arms would say paid sin of World for "real" but only applied to those who God saw in His Foreknowledge accepting Christ, and He predestined the plan they would get into once decided to accept Christ by faith?
And what is the difference of being 'on paper' and for 'real' if they are not of the same thing? If it is not for 'real' then it can not be seen as being 'on paper'.
And what is the difference of being 'on paper' and for 'real' if they are not of the same thing? If it is not for 'real' then it can not be seen as being 'on paper'.
Mean that God would send and allow Jesus to die as a Propiation for the whole World, to be an atonement for ALL men BUT in order for it to become effectual and actually get applied/credit to sinners, they MUST respond in faith to receive jesus Christ...
Unable to do that requirement due to being dead in sins, not able to reply and respond, so God sent forth His grace to quicken those whom he chose to be His elected out peoples, and those such WILL respond bu faith to receive Jesus Christ!
In discussing the 'free offer' of salvation made to the non-elect in another thread, this issue came up.. here is what I posted there as well.Mean that God would send and allow Jesus to die as a Propiation for the whole World, to be an atonement for ALL men BUT in order for it to become effectual and actually get applied/credit to sinners, they MUST respond in faith to receive jesus Christ...
Unable to do that requirement due to being dead in sins, not able to reply and respond, so God sent forth His grace to quicken those whom he chose to be His elected out peoples, and those such WILL respond bu faith to receive Jesus Christ!
If the term 'dead' or most specifically referring to 'spiritually dead' has a definition should not that definition be consistent in that usage (regarding spiritual) for all instances whereby it is used as such?
Thus when we read in scripture 'we are dead in sins' and 'dead' means unable or inability at all according to you (completely dead as in not able to do, think or believe), then this same definition must be applied to Romans 6:2, 7 referring to believers in the same spiritual sense - 'we are dead to sin' .. 'he that is dead is freed from sin'. Both refer to a state of being, one of being 'IN' sin, the other of 'TO' sin, however both refer to the exact same spiritual condition of 'ability' regarding 'dead'.
Remember that we are 'dead' in sin, thus our deadness is 'to' something or someone - God (who is alive). The 'in sin' describes why we are considered 'dead' as opposed to that which is alive and thus without sin (Col 2:13). Understanding this we also understand that if we are 'dead in sins' (and yes we are), then God is 'dead' TO us, as we are to Him. This is why Paul states we as believers ARE 'dead TO sin', as we are no longer IN our sins therefore whatever is 'in' sin is 'dead to us' as God is 'dead' to them as well (1 Pet 2:24). Yet with respect to ability we note that while in sin we can not please God and thus all our actions of righteousness are soiled. As such, we have no ability to 'do' good or salvic/meritorious works as all we touch is tainted or imbued with our sin. This is why God states only that which is of faith, not works but faith will and is able to please God. The term is in reality speaking to a relational point and contrasting us in sin to God.. and that which is of God to sin.
If your definition holds true then believers should no longer be 'able' or have the ability to sin as we see here the scriptures declare that we are 'dead' to them.. and the one who is dead is freed from sin. However a small issue crops up a little later in the same chapter where it states not only that we ARE dead but that we are also to 'consider' ourselves dead to sin. So now it appears that our spiritual inability to sin is contrast with the fact that though we are 'dead', we apparently have the 'ability' to do contrary to our nature.