was It Augustine Who Brought In Idea Isreal Replaced BY Church?

[JesusFan]

was he the first "replacement Theologian", and those holding to that really getting it from the Roman Catholic Church then?

 

[go2church]

No, it was the Apostle Paul

 

[JesusFan]

No, it was the Apostle Paul

same Paul that said that God would NEVER forget his people isreal, God forbid?
That God plans for Isreal included them not accepting Jesus as messiah, in oder for gentiles to get grafted in, but that God still has His plans for the jewish peoples in place?

 

[TomVols]

No, it was the Apostle Paul

AMEN! :applause:

 

[J.D.]

Jesus said it before Paul did.

 

[psalms109:31]

Church

Exodus 12:
48 “A foreigner residing among you who wants to celebrate the LORD’s Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat it. 49 The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.”

God was including non-Jews or non-elect longer than we can think.

I guess it depends when we believe the beginning of the church started.

 

[mckestev]

Romans 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,

 

[stilllearning]

No, it was the Apostle Paul

Where did Paul say this?

 

[stilllearning]

Jesus said it before Paul did.

Where did Jesus say this?

 

[Iconoclast]

Where did Jesus say this?

5And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.

6And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.


18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Where did Paul say this?

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

[J.D.]

Where did Jesus say this?

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (Mat 21:43)

 

[DHK]

was he the first "replacement Theologian", and those holding to that really getting it from the Roman Catholic Church then?

No one has replaced Israel. It is amazing that anyone would even mention Jesus or Paul in this vain. Paul constantly says that he goes to "the Jew first and then to the Greek (Gentile nations). He delineates his world into three definite groups:

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: (1 Corinthians 10:32)
--There were the Jews, the Gentiles, and the church of God, believers in Christ.
Those three groups existed simultaneously then, and still do today.

Mark this: Replacement Theology is a radical heretical anti-Semitic movement. The church or Christianity has never replaced the Jews and never will. At one time that was the goal of Catholicism. At another time that was the goal of Nazi German under Hitler. Today, it is the goal of Islam. It has nothing to do with any Christian values.

To read more on Replacement Theology, read here:

http://www.focusonjerusalem.com/errorofreplacementtheology.html

 

[stilllearning]

5And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.

6And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.


18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Forgive my stupidity, but could you please list the book and chapter for me.

Thanks

 

[stilllearning]

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (Mat 21:43)

Thank you for this Scripture; This supports another realization that I have come to.
I.e. That the “Kingdom of God”, is talking about the Church(the body of Christ!)

Sure enough, the Jews would continue to be God’s people(Romans 11, but they would miss out on being part of the Bride of Christ!
------------------------
But, God’s promises to them still apply "to them".

The Church didn’t replace them; The Jews just missed out on being part of the Church!
(Except for the remnant Jews, who trusted Christ!)

 

[DHK]

Thank you for this Scripture; This supports another realization that I have come to.
I.e. That the “Kingdom of God”, is talking about the Church(the body of Christ!)

Sure enough, the Jews would continue to be God’s people(Romans 11, but they would miss out on being part of the Bride of Christ!
------------------------
But, God’s promises to them still apply "to them".

The Church didn’t replace them; The Jews just missed out on being part of the Church!
(Except for the remnant Jews, who trusted Christ!)

Even the Jews that did believe, but remained Jews (pre-cross) would not be part of the bride:

Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. He must increase, but I must decrease. (John 3:28-30)

John the Baptist considered himself as a "friend of the bridegroom," but not part of the actual bride.

 

[JesusFan]

No one has replaced Israel. It is amazing that anyone would even mention Jesus or Paul in this vain. Paul constantly says that he goes to "the Jew first and then to the Greek (Gentile nations). He delineates his world into three definite groups:

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: (1 Corinthians 10:32)
--There were the Jews, the Gentiles, and the church of God, believers in Christ.
Those three groups existed simultaneously then, and still do today.

Mark this: Replacement Theology is a radical heretical anti-Semitic movement. The church or Christianity has never replaced the Jews and never will. At one time that was the goal of Catholicism. At another time that was the goal of Nazi German under Hitler. Today, it is the goal of Islam. It has nothing to do with any Christian values.

To read more on Replacement Theology, read here:

http://www.focusonjerusalem.com/errorofreplacementtheology.html

Think that is a hugh problem for a long time, as the Church through Covenant theology pretty much has defined the Church as essentially becoming "Spiritual isreal"...

So the Church fully replaced Isreal in Plans of God, forfeited all its promises God made them...

Why can't the Church forfet our own?
Also makes for a VERY strange view at times in eschatology, IMHO!

How can Isreal mean jews in passages, while saying Church in others!

 

[DHK]

Think that is a hugh problem for a long time, as the Church through Covenant theology pretty much has defined the Church as essentially becoming "Spiritual isreal"...

1. That is their problem. I don't believe in covenant theology.
2. They are wrong in defining "church" as spiritual Israel". It is not what is meant there.
Here is the answer from the link I gave you:

A true Jew is anyone born of the Spirit, whether he is racially Gentile or Jewish (Rom. 2:28-29): "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Rebuttal: This argument does not support the notion that the Church replaced Israel. Rather, it simply reinforces what had been said throughout the Hebrew Scriptures [the Old Testament], and it certainly qualifies the spiritual qualifications for Jews or anyone who professes to be a follower of the God of Israel.

So the Church fully replaced Isreal in Plans of God, forfeited all its promises God made them...

Where do you find that teaching. Paul went to the Jews. Peter preached on the day of Pentecost to thousands upon thousand of Jews, out of whom ONLY 3,000 Jews were saved. The rest of the Jews still remained Jews and worshiped at the Temple. God doesn't change.

Why can't the Church forfet our own?

What do you mean by that? A Jew has to come to Christ in the same way a Muslim has to come to Christ. Just as a Muslim forsakes Islam; a Jew forsakes Judaism. They both become Christians. Thus there is no "Church." If "we" are to do anything, it is "the churches" that accept converts to the Christian faith on the basis of their testimony.

Also makes for a VERY strange view at times in eschatology, IMHO!

You may have a strange eschatology. I don't know. I don't know what it is to begin with.

How can Isreal mean jews in passages, while saying Church in others!

When Moses brought the 12 tribes out of Egypt, he brought them to Mt. Sinai, where he was given the Law. There the nation of Israel was born, as a theocracy under Jehovah. Under Samuel's leadership they rejected God as their leader and chose Saul, and the nation became a monarchy like all the other nations. When Solomon died, his son Reheboam refused to listen to his elders concerning taxation, but listened to his peers instead, and told the people that he was going to tax the people even more. This caused a split in the nation. Judah and Benjamin followed Reheboam and became known as Judah (the Southern Kingdom), and the other 10 tribes followed Jeroboam and were commonly known as Israel (the northern kingdom). From that time onward the nation was divided.

In 722 B.C. Israel went into captivity by the hand of Syria.
In 586 B.C. Judah was taken by Nebuchadnezzar.
They remained in captivity until Cyrus gave them a decree which allowed them to go and rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple. As the "Jews" or "Israelites" that had been dispersed over the entire empire began to return to Jerusalem they were commonly called Jews, which is a name derived from "Judah." In the NT "Jews" and "Israelite," are somewhat synonymous, though Jew is simply a more informal name. (It is worth noting that those that returned to rebuild the Temple were those that believed--the remnant).

In other passages church means church. It speaks of believers in Christ. There ought to be no confusion.

 

[JesusFan]

1. That is their problem. I don't believe in covenant theology.
2. They are wrong in defining "church" as spiritual Israel". It is not what is meant there.
Here is the answer from the link I gave you:
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Where do you find that teaching. Paul went to the Jews. Peter preached on the day of Pentecost to thousands upon thousand of Jews, out of whom ONLY 3,000 Jews were saved. The rest of the Jews still remained Jews and worshiped at the Temple. God doesn't change.

What do you mean by that? A Jew has to come to Christ in the same way a Muslim has to come to Christ. Just as a Muslim forsakes Islam; a Jew forsakes Judaism. They both become Christians. Thus there is no "Church." If "we" are to do anything, it is "the churches" that accept converts to the Christian faith on the basis of their testimony.

You may have a strange eschatology. I don't know. I don't know what it is to begin with.

When Moses brought the 12 tribes out of Egypt, he brought them to Mt. Sinai, where he was given the Law. There the nation of Israel was born, as a theocracy under Jehovah. Under Samuel's leadership they rejected God as their leader and chose Saul, and the nation became a monarchy like all the other nations. When Solomon died, his son Reheboam refused to listen to his elders concerning taxation, but listened to his peers instead, and told the people that he was going to tax the people even more. This caused a split in the nation. Judah and Benjamin followed Reheboam and became known as Judah (the Southern Kingdom), and the other 10 tribes followed Jeroboam and were commonly known as Israel (the northern kingdom). From that time onward the nation was divided.

In 722 B.C. Israel went into captivity by the hand of Syria.
In 586 B.C. Judah was taken by Nebuchadnezzar.
They remained in captivity until Cyrus gave them a decree which allowed them to go and rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple. As the "Jews" or "Israelites" that had been dispersed over the entire empire began to return to Jerusalem they were commonly called Jews, which is a name derived from "Judah." In the NT "Jews" and "Israelite," are somewhat synonymous, though Jew is simply a more informal name. (It is worth noting that those that returned to rebuild the Temple were those that believed--the remnant).

In other passages church means church. It speaks of believers in Christ. There ought to be no confusion.

I am NOT a believer in ANY of this "replacement theology" nor one who believes in "Covenant theology"

My questions/answers were just to really say this is what those who hold to on this believe in, NOT what I hold to!

 

[DHK]

I am NOT a believer in ANY of this "replacement theology" nor one who believes in "Covenant theology"

My questions/answers were just to really say this is what those who hold to on this believe in, NOT what I hold to!

Sorry, sometimes it's hard to tell.

 

[Iconoclast]

Forgive my stupidity, but could you please list the book and chapter for me.

Thanks

Sorry,
I should have listed it already.Isa.49:1-8


here is a helpful article and four good sermons on this.

http://www.abideinchrist.com/messages/isa42v1.html

Go to the ARBCA site...look up sermons



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