"so that the WORLD may believe..."

[Skandelon]

Jesus prayed, "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me." -John 17:21

Question: If the term "world" here really means "the elect of the world" why does he say "may believe" rather than "will believe?" Doesn't this verse show that Jesus believed that anyone in the world (whosoever) actually has the ability to believe in Christ? If not, why not?

 

[preacher4truth]

Here's some light on the context of what is meant in 21:


Joh_17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.


It's 12 verses prior to yours. That way we understand what is meant in 17:21.

 

[Skandelon]

Here's some light on the context of what is meant in 21:
Joh_17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. [

It's 12 verses prior to yours. That way we understand what is meant in 17:21.

Actually, I think it is clear that he is praying first for his chosen apostles and in verse 20 he shifts to pray for us, "those who will believe through their message."

"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,"

 

[preacher4truth]

Actually, I think it is clear that he is praying first for his chosen apostles and in verse 20 he shifts to pray for us, "those who will believe through their message."

"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,"

Yep. He prayed for those who would believe in Him. That's not all inclusive. It's limited. In the same way He prayed for his apostles, He prayed for those also who (strictly) would likewise would believe in Him.

Contextually and clearly He is praying for those the Father has given Him. That's the entire contextual meaning.

Seems limited to me.

Also in Matthew 11, Jesus says He will only reveal the Father to whom He wills to do so. Not the entire world. Why does God choose to do this? Reveal Himself to only those He desires to do so? We call it Sovereignty. If he chooses not to reveal Himself to all, is that fair? To me it is. He can exercise mercy and grace to whom He wills to do so. If some go punished into eternity is that just or justice?

God is just and the justifier.

I wish the entire world to be saved. But it's not going to happen.

John 11:52....He came to save His sheep scattered abroad, they were already His sheep, and He came to die for the sins of His...Matthew 1:21 people. He came to die for the sins of His people, to save His people from their sins. Quite specific. Not all inclusive in these passages.

Looking at these and many other passages helps us understand what is going on here.

One thing for certain, we are both glad that He saved us.

 

[percho]

Jesus prayed, "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me." -John 17:21

Question: If the term "world" here really means "the elect of the world" why does he say "may believe" rather than "will believe?" Doesn't this verse show that Jesus believed that anyone in the world (whosoever) actually has the ability to believe in Christ? If not, why not?

Jesus said this as the prophet that was to come. What takes place shortly after Jesus said this is the beginning of the fulfillment of many prophecy's in the OT concerning the house of Judah and the house of Israel that the rest of the heathen world would take note of showing the mercy and love of God.
You will have to fine them on your own but as I said, there are many. This is something that we as Christians have ignored.

One example: Ezekiel 36:36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined [places, and] plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken [it], and I will do [it].

This follows when some that have been cleansed from their iniquities.


Washed in the blood?

 

[Iconoclast]

Ot Israel was to be a witness and testimony to God's grace, they failed most of the time.
The Nt church is also to be a witness to the world, leaving them more guilty having seen ,and to some extent seeing the grace of God in action.
The church when obeying as the church should heaps coals of fire on the head of the unbeliever....romans 12:19

14Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.

15Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.

16Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

17Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

18If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

[JesusFan]

Actually, I think it is clear that he is praying first for his chosen apostles and in verse 20 he shifts to pray for us, "those who will believe through their message."

"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,"

Stills begs the question though...

jesus is praying that those of the World believe that Jesus was sent by God....

Through the lives/outreach/teaching of first the Apostles, and now all of us who are saved by him...

Don't think he was reference IF the elect only are to hear and believe hear, or if ALL can be saved here!

 

[Skandelon]

Yep. He prayed for those who would believe in Him. That's not all inclusive. It's limited. In the same way He prayed for his apostles, He prayed for those also who (strictly) would likewise would believe in Him.

Contextually and clearly He is praying for those the Father has given Him. That's the entire contextual meaning.

Seems limited to me.

Limited to who? Those elected to believe or to whosoever believes by their own choosing? That is the point regarding the verse mentioned in the OP. It indicates that anyone in the world MAY BELIEVE.

Also in Matthew 11, Jesus says He will only reveal the Father to whom He wills to do so. Not the entire world. Why does God choose to do this? Reveal Himself to only those He desires to do so? We call it Sovereignty. If he chooses not to reveal Himself to all, is that fair? To me it is. He can exercise mercy and grace to whom He wills to do so. If some go punished into eternity is that just or justice?

But look at the context. God is judicially hardening Israel (the wise and learned), which means he is blinding them "lest they repent and be saved." (Mark 4; Matt 13). Why would he need to hide the gospel if indeed all men were born totally depraved and thus unable to see, hear, understand and repent? He hid it from them temporarily so as to accomplish the crucifixition, but those who are hardened temporarily may still be saved (Rom 11:14).

 

[preacher4truth]

Limited to who? Those elected to believe or to whosoever believes by their own choosing? That is the point regarding the verse mentioned in the OP. It indicates that anyone in the world MAY BELIEVE.

But look at the context. God is judicially hardening Israel (the wise and learned), which means he is blinding them "lest they repent and be saved." (Mark 4; Matt 13). Why would he need to hide the gospel if indeed all men were born totally depraved and thus unable to see, hear, understand and repent? He hid it from them temporarily so as to accomplish the crucifixition, but those who are hardened temporarily may still be saved (Rom 11:14).

Limited to His people, as stated.

He chooses us. Not us choosing him. Who chose Abram? That's Gods prevenient grace. Who chose David? These are eternal lessons, that God does the choosing. We are chosen in Christ. 1 Peter 2:9. Who chose Saul? Acts 9. When was the lambs book of life complete? Who chose those within it's pages?

Hide the Gospel? Did He say He hid the Gospel? Or did He say he hid revealing the Father/Son?

Did I say He hid the Gospel?

I said what He said...He reveals Himself to whom He wills to do so. It's not restricted only until the crucifixion.

I notice you passed over the "aren't you glad we're both saved" part.

 

[Skandelon]

Hide the Gospel? Did He say He hid the Gospel? Or did He say he hid revealing the Father/Son?

Paul often referred to the "mystery" of the gospel, also known as the "secret of the kingdom of God."

"11 He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that, " 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!' "

"God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."

This is to what I was referring. God is actively hardening Israel lest they repent and be forgiven.

1. Why would this be necessary if Calvinism were true? Wouldn't they just naturally be born blind and hardened already?

2. Paul indicates that those being hardened may be saved (Rom 11:14) and that they might be grafted back in if they leave their unbelief because their hardening is "temporary," thus they can't be the non-elect of the Calvinistic dogma.

I notice you passed over the "aren't you glad we're both saved" part.

Yes.

 

[Tater77]

Need to start at John 17:1 and just read. The individuals spoken of are the disciples/Apostles , Christ is praying for them and the world. These passages have nothing to do with the "elect" in a general sense but a few specific people.