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Are You STILL A Dispy IF Hold To pre Mill regardless When rapture?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
While traditional dispensationalism holds to a pre-trib rapture, it would theoretically be possible to hold to a different position on the rapture and still be a modified dispensationalist.
Tom Butler
New Member
If it means drawing a distinction between the Church and Israel, then I'm not a dispy of any kind. That's because the Church doesn't exist.
Historic Dispensational is pre-trib (think Alva J McClain and Dallas Seminary). Anything else is only partly dispensational (mid trib, pre wrath, post trib) at best . . and at worst, really warped theology!
As dispensational in theology, I am always amazed at my Reformed Baptist brothers who fall into the a mill or post mill camp (the majority of this group). To read the OT and national Israel and say that somehow this is equated to the Church is simply not good exegesis. They are different animals.
As dispensational in theology, I am always amazed at my Reformed Baptist brothers who fall into the a mill or post mill camp (the majority of this group). To read the OT and national Israel and say that somehow this is equated to the Church is simply not good exegesis. They are different animals.
Bob Alkire
New Member
Well said!
You are confusing terms. Dallas Seminary and Mclain were Historic Dispensationalists...they were definitely NOT historic premillenialists!
To the OP: NO. Historical Premillenialism is Covenant Theology, not dispensationalist. The primary difference is not the rapture timing, but the definition and extent of Israel. Historic Pre- Millennialism sees no distinction between the Church and (Saved) Israel. It is generally Post-Trib, but some (like myself) see a mid trib, pre wrath rapture at the seventh trumpet.
However, as far as dispensationalists...you can be pre, mid, or post trib.
Think undersdtand the distinction made here...
IF you hold to Church/istreal seperate entities in Plans of God Dispy
Hold to Church replacing isreal, today is "Spiritual isreal" Covenant
BOTH can be pre mill, just depends on how you see God dealing with these"groups"?
Not exactly. Covenant theology does not teach a "replacement" of Israel, but a different definition of what it is.
But wouldn't they who believe this way hold to the Church being "Spiritual Isreal?"
That the promises made to jewish nation/peoples were transferred unto the Church once jews rejected their Messiah?
Some might, but that is not really covenant theology. The idea is that the promises were NEVER just to Israel, nor to all of Israel. Israel was the starting point to God's covenant people...relationship was offered to Israel first, then the covenant people (Spiritual Israel) expanded to include all races. But it is the exact same group that started out with Abraham (or even Adam). One group, united, from the beginning of history until now, which has alternatively been called Israel, the house of Jacob, the Church, and the body of Christ.
Think have it now!
Cov see it as God having just 1 group of people saved and belonging to Him over the years...
depending on time era, would be labeled as being Isreal, Church. Body of Chrsit etc 1 group
Dispy see God having 2 distinct peoples jews/Gentiles who depending on time era were either isreal/Chrch, right now all jews/Gentiles saved are in Church, but God still has a seperate plan for jewish nation Isreal...
Cov see Isreal/Church labels for same group "saved" Dispy 2 seperate/distinct bodies saved by God?
You got it!
Millennial Dispensation
"Dispys see God having 2 distinct peoples Jews/Gentiles who depending on time era were either Israel/Church, right now all Jews/Gentiles saved are in Church,
but God still has a separate plan for Jewish nation Israel".
Mel's Response:
Many scriptures require the fulfillment of God's eternal plan for Israel as an ethnic nation after Christ returns to make them His People a "second time"...
"after two days (2000 years". Isa.11:11-15; Hosea 5:14 to 6:2,11.
Luke's account of the discourse on Mt. Olivet points to the promise of Christ that, "after Gentile times are fulfilled", the Son of Man will "redeem the Jews
and restore their kingdom on the day that is coming like a snare on all the peoples
on all the face of all the earth".
Luke 21:24,25,28,31,34-36.
This promise cannot begin to be fulfilled until the one question asked by the
Martyrs in the church has been fulfilled: "How long before You judge and
avenge our blood upon those dwelling on the earth"? The answer is that
"they must wait until the last believer is killed who must be killed". Rev.6:9-11.
The judgment of the wicked occurs when Christ descends with all the Saints
...including the last martyred Believer...and the Jewish "tribes of the earth
mourn and beg to escape all these things and to stand before the Son of
Man". This applies only to those who will become God's People a second time
and be given the everlasting (Davidic) kingdom under a New Covenant...one that
is separate and distinct from the present New Covenant that will bring the "knowledge of the Lord to all men...for no one can be blessed with good crops
apart from coming to Jerusalem each year to worship the Lord". Heb.8:8-12; Zech.14.
For unbelieving Israel, the Old Covenant is "ready to vanish away". Heb.8:13.
Mel Miller
Quote by Jesus Fan:
"Dispys see God having 2 distinct peoples Jews/Gentiles who depending on time era were either Israel/Church, right now all Jews/Gentiles saved are in Church,
but God still has a separate plan for Jewish nation Israel".
Mel's Response:
Many scriptures require the fulfillment of God's eternal plan for Israel as an ethnic nation after Christ returns to make them His People a "second time"...
"after two days (2000 years". Isa.11:11-15; Hosea 5:14 to 6:2,11.
Luke's account of the discourse on Mt. Olivet points to the promise of Christ that, "after Gentile times are fulfilled", the Son of Man will "redeem the Jews
and restore their kingdom on the day that is coming like a snare on all the peoples
on all the face of all the earth".
Luke 21:24,25,28,31,34-36.
This promise cannot begin to be fulfilled until the one question asked by the
Martyrs in the church has been fulfilled: "How long before You judge and
avenge our blood upon those dwelling on the earth"? The answer is that
"they must wait until the last believer is killed who must be killed". Rev.6:9-11.
The judgment of the wicked occurs when Christ descends with all the Saints
...including the last martyred Believer...and the Jewish "tribes of the earth
mourn and beg to escape all these things and to stand before the Son of
Man". This applies only to those who will become God's People a second time
and be given the everlasting (Davidic) kingdom under a New Covenant...one that
is separate and distinct from the present New Covenant that will bring the "knowledge of the Lord to all men...for no one can be blessed with good crops
apart from coming to Jerusalem each year to worship the Lord". Heb.8:8-12; Zech.14.
For unbelieving Israel, the Old Covenant is "ready to vanish away". Heb.8:13.
Mel Miller
Last edited by a moderator:
The New Testament is clear, in my opinion, that we are grafted into ONE body, with "no distinction"...and this is the defining difference between dispensational theology and covenant theology...dispy says "Yes distinction," covenant says "no distinction."
BUT> Please start your own thread. I have no interest in getting into a Disp/Covenant debate. This is about the definitions of the positions.
Future Millennial Dispensation
Mel's Response,
I agree with you: There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile relative to our eternal position and destination in Christ. This position applies to both
OT and NT saints; for they make up ONE Body that is growing unto the Holy
Temple in the Lord.
My point applies to those who do not belong to the Body of Christ or Bride of
the Lamb. I see the removal of "partial blindness" to ethnic Israel dependent on Messiah's return after the last one who completes the Body of Christ
has been saved...when the salvation of "all of Israel" in the flesh occurs.
The "kings of the nations who are saved" during the Millennium must "bring
their honor and glory into the heavenly Jerusalem after the New Heavens
and Earth have seen "all things completed". They will enter in order to be "healed by the leaves of the tree of life". They will enter from earth
either day or night...
but night will not exist in the eternal City coming down from Heaven over the
new earth. KJV - Rev.21:24-26; Rev.22:2,14.
Mel Miller
Mel's Response,
I agree with you: There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile relative to our eternal position and destination in Christ. This position applies to both
OT and NT saints; for they make up ONE Body that is growing unto the Holy
Temple in the Lord.
My point applies to those who do not belong to the Body of Christ or Bride of
the Lamb. I see the removal of "partial blindness" to ethnic Israel dependent on Messiah's return after the last one who completes the Body of Christ
has been saved...when the salvation of "all of Israel" in the flesh occurs.
The "kings of the nations who are saved" during the Millennium must "bring
their honor and glory into the heavenly Jerusalem after the New Heavens
and Earth have seen "all things completed". They will enter in order to be "healed by the leaves of the tree of life". They will enter from earth
either day or night...
but night will not exist in the eternal City coming down from Heaven over the
new earth. KJV - Rev.21:24-26; Rev.22:2,14.
Mel Miller
Jesus said "I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life..." if you do not belong to the Body of Christ (Church), you spend an eternity in Hell.
And the Bible does not say "No distinction except in..." it just says "NO" distinction. That means "no" distinction of any kind. No, means no.
Mel Responds,
Once again we agree there is no distinction in this present dispensation for
inheriting an eternal dwelling place in heaven based on the promise made to
Abraham that applies to all who embrace Christ.
But in the Millennial dispensation, for "all those who will have survived among the nations when all men will know the Lord", they must come
to Jerusalem annually to worship Him or receive "no rain for their crops". Zech.14:16-19. The Davidic Covenant is the "New Covenant" that
is yet to be realized through
the redemption of God's former People a "second time". Isa.11:11-15. This
is the "redemption and kingdom" to which Jesus refers in Luke 21:28,31...
both of which do not go into effect for Jews until they see Christ "coming
with ALL the Saints...and they mourn and beg for mercy"!
That is why the comment by the author of Hebrews on that New Covenant to David adds the assurance that the Old Covenant is
"ready to vanish so that the word of the Lord will cover the earth and all men come to know the Lord". Heb.8:13!!
So this discussion is not merely about the "definition" of Dispensation. It
concerns the nature of the "age to come; the coming ages".
Mel Miller
www.lastday.net
Even in the eternal state there appears to be a distinction between redeemed Israel and the Church.
Revelation 21
Revelation 21
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
HankD