John 12:32 question.

[Van]

Reply to Jesusfan,

So you do NOT hold to the Biblical truth that God must enable us to be able to respond by faith and receive jesus Christ?
that somehow all of us have within us at birth the means to hear and believe in Jesus by JUST having the Gospel presented to us?

Doesn't that once again make us the Ultimate basis/source of our salavtion, as we are stll "good enough" to reply in ourselves to God?

Why do you refer to these falsehoods of Calvinism as "biblical truths" without offering a single supporting scripture? When I say they are false, I include the scriptures that so demonstrate, at least in my eyes.

Here is what I wrote, and you ignored:There is a spectrum of belief as far as the meaning of "enabled." Cals say "irresistible grace", Arms say prevenient grace, and some non cal/arms say revealing grace provides the opportunity to choose, but does not supernaturally alter the core capability of some fallen men, the last three soils of Matthew 13.

God does grant the means to receive the gospel to men who hear the gospel with understanding. Some "learn" and some "don't. But God's system allows folks to harden themselves so they cannot understand, i.e. the first soil of Matthew 13, and scripture tells us of God's intervention to harden some hearts which precluded "receiving" the gospel, i.e. Romans 11, not to mention Judas in John 6.

So yes, we cannot be reconciled unless God allows it first. But it is in the mechanism of the "allowing" that Cals and Arms, and non Cal/Arms differ.

God has not given all people the gift of revealing grace, some have been conceived and died without hearing or understanding the gospel. And even some who live "innocently" (i.e. do not harden their hearts by the practice of sin) to an age where most people know right from wrong, some are feeble minded and cannot grasp the gospel. I believe God treats all these justly.

How do we know that most but not all can "freely" receive the gospel. Because that is the gospel of Christ. For God so loved mankind that He gave His one of a kind Son, so that whoever from among mankind, believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16 is inclusive, and presents the offer of salvation to the world of fallen mankind.

 

[JesusFan]

Why do you refer to these falsehoods of Calvinism as "biblical truths" without offering a single supporting scripture? When I say they are false, I include the scriptures that so demonstrate, at least in my eyes.

Here is what I wrote, and you ignored:There is a spectrum of belief as far as the meaning of "enabled." Cals say "irresistible grace", Arms say prevenient grace, and some non cal/arms say revealing grace provides the opportunity to choose, but does not supernaturally alter the core capability of some fallen men, the last three soils of Matthew 13.

God does grant the means to receive the gospel to men who hear the gospel with understanding. Some "learn" and some "don't. But God's system allows folks to harden themselves so they cannot understand, i.e. the first soil of Matthew 13, and scripture tells us of God's intervention to harden some hearts which precluded "receiving" the gospel, i.e. Romans 11, not to mention Judas in John 6.

So yes, we cannot be reconciled unless God allows it first. But it is in the mechanism of the "allowing" that Cals and Arms, and non Cal/Arms differ.

God has not given all people the gift of revealing grace, some have been conceived and died without hearing or understanding the gospel. And even some who live "innocently" (i.e. do not harden their hearts by the practice of sin) to an age where most people know right from wrong, some are feeble minded and cannot grasp the gospel. I believe God treats all these justly.

How do we know that most but not all can "freely" receive the gospel. Because that is the gospel of Christ. For God so loved mankind that He gave His one of a kind Son, so that whoever from among mankind, believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16 is inclusive, and presents the offer of salvation to the world of fallen mankind.

Either he presents the Gospel to All freely, knowing that only Some will accept it, after he enables them to do such, but bi certainity that any really will come to Christ

OR
he presents the Gospel freely to all, and he makes sure that some will respond and receive Jesus!

 

[Skandelon]

still the basic question remains... can a person hear and respond to the gospel by placing faith In jesus by Just the word, NO enabling by the Holy Spirit?

Your question presumes that the work of producing, preserving, and delivering the Gospel isn't a work of the Holy Spirit by which men are enabled to respond, which is my contention. Understand?

 

[JesusFan]

Your question presumes that the work of producing, preserving, and delivering the Gospel isn't a work of the Holy Spirit by which men are enabled to respond, which is my contention. Understand?

The means/agent by which God chosen to save man is through the proclamation of the Gospel of Christ, BUT unless he enables one to have the 'free will" restored and make a decision, will not be able to place faith in Christ!

BOTH cals/Arms do affirm this truth!

 

[Skandelon]

JesusFan,

Let me explain this with an illustration: Let's suppose you were a father with two sons who both rebelled by their own will against your authority and were now enemies. In love you sent them a message appealing for them to be reconciled to you.

Now, before the message was sent to them you could rightly say they were enemies unable to be reconciled to you because of their rebellious and prideful hearts. But once they hear what you did for them and they hear the appeal you make to them, is there anything keeping them from being able to accept or reject that appeal? Must you, their father, also sneak a drug into their drinking water which alters their wills to make them want to accept your appeal to be reconciled, or is the message alone enough to supply all that is needed?

To say that the gospel's appeal to be reconciled is insufficient because all men are born enemies of God is tantamount to saying the doctor's cure for cancer is insufficient because the patient has cancer. Make sense?

 

[Skandelon]

The means/agent by which God chosen to save man is through the proclamation of the Gospel of Christ, BUT unless he enables one to have the 'free will" restored and make a decision, will not be able to place faith in Christ!

BOTH cals/Arms do affirm this truth!

You are correct that classical Arminians do affirm the need for enabling grace, however different Arminian scholars describe this working in various ways (as do Calvinistic ones).

One thing that should be noted however, is that most wouldn't ever separate that enabling work from the work of gospel. In other words, they would teach that the HS enables them THROUGH the gospel's appeal rather than it being a "prior/additional" working of the HS. Make sense?

 

[JesusFan]

You are correct that classical Arminians do affirm the need for enabling grace, however different Arminian scholars describe this working in various ways (as do Calvinistic ones).

One thing that should be noted however, is that most wouldn't ever separate that enabling work from the work of gospel. In other words, they would teach that the HS enables them THROUGH the gospel's appeal rather than it being a "prior/additional" working of the HS. Make sense?

I would say that at the time of the conversion of the sinner into a saint of God....

there is a providental meeting of the work of God externally to allow/enable the person to respond to the message of the Gospel that he hears...

The Gospel may produce that faith in a person, but God still woudl had to "open them up" to be able/enabled to be in a postion for the Gospel to do its work!

 

[Skandelon]

Consider the two options side by side:

Arminian
1. God gives grace prior to any human response.
2. As such, people are already lifted up higher by grace before they respond.
3. As such, people don't lift themselves up, God does.
4. As such, when people respond negatively, they jump off of the higher place God had lifted them to.
5. Hence, God does the lifting and people do the sinning.

Now consider the Calvinist alternative if grace isn't resistible:

Calvinism
1. God gives grace prior to any positive response and this grace is not resistible.
2. As such, people are already lifted up higher by grace before they respond positively.
3. As such, people don't lift themselves up, God does.
4. As such, when people sin by rejecting Christ, they sin because God withheld the grace they needed to resist temptation.
5. Hence, God does the lifting and also brings to fruition the sin he hates.

 

[JesusFan]

Consider the two options side by side:

Arminian
1. God gives grace prior to any human response.
2. As such, people are already lifted up higher by grace before they respond.
3. As such, people don't lift themselves up, God does.
4. As such, when people respond negatively, they jump off of the higher place God had lifted them to.
5. Hence, God does the lifting and people do the sinning.

Now consider the Calvinist alternative if grace isn't resistible:

Calvinism
1. God gives grace prior to any positive response and this grace is not resistible.
2. As such, people are already lifted up higher by grace before they respond positively.
3. As such, people don't lift themselves up, God does.
4. As such, when people sin by rejecting Christ, they sin because God withheld the grace they needed to resist temptation.
5. Hence, God does the lifting and also brings to fruition the sin he hates.

Don't know if those ponts you listed are correctly Arminianism, but those ponts are NOT Calvinism fully, as NO cal would affirm that the reason why people keep on sinning was because God withheld his grace to stop them...

Men sin because that is their very nature, and they rebell against ways of God due to that also... God passes over them whom he has not elected, he has dtermined what their ultimate fate is after death, but permits/allows them to do what is uin their hearts to do 'naturally"

He does elected and provide salvation unto His own, based on NOTHING excewpt his own good pleasure and Will, and enables them to receive jesus Christ!

Sometimes think basic problem in discusiing this is that BOTH sides are sorta ignorant of what each say and mean!

 

[Skandelon]

Don't know if those ponts you listed are correctly Arminianism, but those ponts are NOT Calvinism fully, as NO cal would affirm that the reason why people keep on sinning was because God withheld his grace to stop them...

If it's only by God's effectual grace that one may receive Christ, then if God withholds that grace from some, wouldn't that be the reason/excuse for why someone wouldn't receive Christ?

Men sin because that is their very nature, and they rebell against ways of God due to that also.

There nature determined by who? God or themselves? Weren't they born with their nature? Wasn't it God who determined it to be such that it could not willingly accept God's appeal?

 

[Van]

Reply to Jesusfan

Either he presents the Gospel to All freely, knowing that only Some will accept it, after he enables them to do such, but bi certainity that any really will come to Christ

OR
he presents the Gospel freely to all, and he makes sure that some will respond and receive Jesus!

I explained what I mean by "enabled" and then you used the word again without definition.

One, there is no requirement to present the gospel to all freely. You have no scripture to support this fiction. The job of believers is to present the gospel to all freely, but some live and die without hearing or understanding.

Two there is no requirement to enable, meaning supernaturally alter the state of men of flesh, in order to understand the milk of the gospel. You have no scripture to support this fiction. 1 Corinthians 2:14 to 3:3 clearly teaches men of flesh can understand milk.

What God makes sure is that if He credits their faith as righteousness, then He saves them forever.