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Salvation minus repentance equals salvation?
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preacher4truth
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quantumfaith
Active Member
Short answer: Bologna is a meat. Baloney is nonsense.
psalms109:31
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:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
(I am) Never too old to learn something!!! :1_grouphug:
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quantumfaith
Active Member
May I suggest a sequence in differential and integral calculus. A great way to stimulate the brain cells.
Then don't accuse me of changing or adding to the original question. I didn't. It was a separate question. And if you agree with me fine.Stop with your nonsence and twisting.
I've never taught this definition of repentance. But nice try.
Nowhere have I said a thing about "repenting of all their sins" so quit laying this on me as if I did. I never defined repentance, never even tried.
First, that is not what I said. Get the facts straight. Here is what I said:
"Aside from the Book of Acts and the gospels, can you show me where repentance is part of the gospel? The Gospels were pre-cross, and Acts is a historical book which is a book of transition. Most of our doctrine actually comes from the epistles. Where in the epistles does it tell us that repentance is part of the gospel?"
1. I did not add anything to that (i.e. "all of your sins")
2. 2 Pet.3:9 does not answer that question. It is not a "part of the gospel message" but a desire of God. Furthermore it is not a requirement of anything, but a phrase which says "unto repentance."
3. The command in the gospel is to believe not to repent. That is what is given in the gospel message. In 2Pet.3:9 there is no command for man to repent. Again, I will repeat, if you don't have a good grasp of repentance you tread on dangerous ground. I say that with concern.
On his terms, not yours.
I never said the concept of repentance isn't in the NT. I did say the explicit command is not in the message of the gospel. We are commanded to believe; not to repent. Until you understand what repentance is, then you will not understand why we are commanded to believe on the Lord, instead of believe on the Lord and repent in order to be saved. Why do you think that is?
preacher4truth
Active Member
DHK,
How then are you accusing me of defining repentance, when I never did? Misrepresent much? Uh. Yes you do!
However you got "I said you said" repentance is not in the NT is beyond me. Another misnomer.
The command of the Gospel is "all men are everywhere commanded to repent." And God awaits THIS SPECIFICALLY that is, repentance, even now according to 2 Peter friend. In fact, it is "repentance toward God (first and forwemost) and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ." :thumbsup:
2 Peter 3:9 answers your question perfectly.
One more thing: Faith is not part of the Gospel, now is it? It, the Gospel is strictly the Death Burial and Resurrection of Christ. Where is faith at? Uh? Hmmmm. So your questioning is flawed, and by logical reason, we both allowed faith in there, did we not? But technically it is not there. And technically we are told to repent first and foremost, and then believe. Notice that chronological order in Acts and in the presentation of the Gospel.
So now, you say, by allowance only, that faith is part of that message. You see? I concur. And so is repentance, as God is awaiting folks to repent under His Gospel. It's the protocol of Acts. It's first and foremost on God's heart in 2 Peter as to why he delays the coming of His Son. It's also mentioned in 2 Corinthians, and alluded to in Romans 2:4.
Another side note: I'm not real keen on all of your personal attacks. As brothers, I expect reconciliation.
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You define words in two ways:
1. In the way that you use them.
2. In the Scripture that you give to support them.
I am not sure what you are referring to. I said that the command to repent is not in the gospel message if that is what you are referring to.
And that is in Acts, isn't it? Outside of the parameters of what I asked for.
Go study 2Peter 3:9. There is no command to repent. Understand what the verse means. Then go and look at what I wrote. If you don't want to address the challenges that I gave you fine. You can pontificate all you like. But as long as you are not addressing the challenges in posts 92 and 109, you are failing in this debate. I don't doubt your sincerity. But we are talking about one very specific topic as defined previously.
Is that in the epistles? (post 92)?
There is no command for any unsaved person to repent in that verse. The verse mentions "unto repentance." It does not give the command to repent. There is a difference.
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)
--What saves? Believe in the gospel: the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is right there in 1Cor.15:1-4. If you have believed in vain, you are not saved. Yes, belief is a very important part of that gospel message, but repentance is not.
It is there, and not only there, but in hundreds of verses throughout the NT.
Remember my specific instruction to keep to the epistles. I hope you can see why by now.
You haven't given me one verse where repentance is required for an unbeliever to be saved; not one (at least in the epistles as I stipulated). You quote verses with the word repent in them. But they do not command a person to repent for salvation. Mostly you quote scripture out of context.
DHK,
FOR YOU:
4Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
6And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost. 7So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.
8For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.
9For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Here is your repentance.....Every book does not have to say everything.
CAN you DHK show we have to be born from above...without using JN 3 or 1 peter2?
Your dispensational error is corrupting your understanding of the gospels and acts.....
13He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
is this not valid today?
from the closed thread;
Quantum,
There are some dispensationalists {not all, but many} who teach that repentance was a jewish doctrine..in the age of law.
But they teach that now is the "church age" or the age of grace...so we only need to believe...that repentance is no longer necessary!
These usually teach that we are under no law whatsoever..only grace.
Chapter 15: Of Repentance Unto Life and Salvation
1._____ Such of the elect as are converted at riper years, having sometime lived in the state of nature, and therein served divers lusts and pleasures, God in their effectual calling giveth them repentance unto life. ( Titus 3:2-5 )
2._____ Whereas there is none that doth good and sinneth not, and the best of men may, through the power and deceitfulness of their corruption dwelling in them, with the prevalency of temptation, fall into great sins and provocations; God hath, in the covenant of grace, mercifully provided that believers so sinning and falling be renewed through repentance unto salvation.
( Ecclesiastes 7:20; Luke 22:31, 32 )
3._____ This saving repentance is an evangelical grace, whereby a person, being by the Holy Spirit made sensible of the manifold evils of his sin, doth, by faith in Christ, humble himself for it with godly sorrow, detestation of it, and self-abhorrency, praying for pardon and strength of grace, with a purpose and endeavour, by supplies of the Spirit, to walk before God unto all well-pleasing in all things.
( Zechariah 12:10; Acts 11:18; Ezekiel 36:31; 2 Corinthians 7:11; Psalms 119:6; Psalms 119:128 )
4._____ As repentance is to be continued through the whole course of our lives, upon the account of the body of death, and the motions thereof, so it is every man's duty to repent of his particular known sins particularly.
( Luke 19:8; 1 Timothy 1:13, 15 )
5._____ Such is the provision which God hath made through Christ in the covenant of grace for the preservation of believers unto salvation; that although there is no sin so small but it deserves damnation; yet there is no sin so great that it shall bring damnation on them that repent; which makes the constant preaching of repentance necessary.
( Romans 6:23; Isaiah 1:16-18 Isaiah 55:7 )
here is what is in the 1689 confession of faith
FOR YOU:
4Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
6And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost. 7So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.
8For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.
9For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Here is your repentance.....Every book does not have to say everything.
CAN you DHK show we have to be born from above...without using JN 3 or 1 peter2?
Your dispensational error is corrupting your understanding of the gospels and acts.....
13He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
is this not valid today?
from the closed thread;
Quantum,
There are some dispensationalists {not all, but many} who teach that repentance was a jewish doctrine..in the age of law.
But they teach that now is the "church age" or the age of grace...so we only need to believe...that repentance is no longer necessary!
These usually teach that we are under no law whatsoever..only grace.
Chapter 15: Of Repentance Unto Life and Salvation
1._____ Such of the elect as are converted at riper years, having sometime lived in the state of nature, and therein served divers lusts and pleasures, God in their effectual calling giveth them repentance unto life. ( Titus 3:2-5 )
2._____ Whereas there is none that doth good and sinneth not, and the best of men may, through the power and deceitfulness of their corruption dwelling in them, with the prevalency of temptation, fall into great sins and provocations; God hath, in the covenant of grace, mercifully provided that believers so sinning and falling be renewed through repentance unto salvation.
( Ecclesiastes 7:20; Luke 22:31, 32 )
3._____ This saving repentance is an evangelical grace, whereby a person, being by the Holy Spirit made sensible of the manifold evils of his sin, doth, by faith in Christ, humble himself for it with godly sorrow, detestation of it, and self-abhorrency, praying for pardon and strength of grace, with a purpose and endeavour, by supplies of the Spirit, to walk before God unto all well-pleasing in all things.
( Zechariah 12:10; Acts 11:18; Ezekiel 36:31; 2 Corinthians 7:11; Psalms 119:6; Psalms 119:128 )
4._____ As repentance is to be continued through the whole course of our lives, upon the account of the body of death, and the motions thereof, so it is every man's duty to repent of his particular known sins particularly.
( Luke 19:8; 1 Timothy 1:13, 15 )
5._____ Such is the provision which God hath made through Christ in the covenant of grace for the preservation of believers unto salvation; that although there is no sin so small but it deserves damnation; yet there is no sin so great that it shall bring damnation on them that repent; which makes the constant preaching of repentance necessary.
( Romans 6:23; Isaiah 1:16-18 Isaiah 55:7 )
here is what is in the 1689 confession of faith
Icono:
My question was about repentance. It had nothing to do with dispensationalism whatsoever. No need to bring that up.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Thank you for the clarification
preacher4truth
Active Member
Amen.
Some will even twist and wrangle Scripture in order to be right.
I've shown him plainly. So have others. So have you.
Repentance is necessary for salvation. Luke 13. 2 Peter 3:9 God awaits it.
So he twists Scripture, misrepresents, says I gave definitions, which I did not give, then wrests that into "because you believe this passage says this" (in which yeat again he is way off) that I mean repentance means thus and so, then the personal attacks.
You know what? All of these tactics are used by someone losing.
He has changed the rules and questions at every turn to avoid the truth and fact presented to him to prove him in the wrong.
God awaits repentance. It thus must be necessary.
But DHK? He'd rather we listened to HIS WORD, over Gods Word.
Hmmmm.
Interesting.
I believe it does affect your understanding DHK.....your comments about the gospels and Acts indicate you see no continuity in God's eternal plan of redeeming a multitude. here in thess 1 they turned from idols to serve God...that is repentance...
In Rev. repentance is a recurring theme...DHK.....I believe your are drifting off course with your current line of reasoning.
While it is good to stress...believe only ...for salvation.....a saving belief includes repentance, faith, works, everyday...for all jew or gentile.
preacher4truth
Active Member
More twisting and evading.
I've given you more than one verse son.
You won't believe.
God awaits repentance, thus it must be necessary for salvation. He also grants it as a gift. Must be important to salvation huh? Or maybe He's wasting His time giving us "trivial gifts?" You know, they're not important any longer since Acts according to you.
You on the other hand? Naw, you say God is wrong, and we should listen to you, because, after all, God's protocol in salvation in Acts is only "historical" and His awaiting to send His Son for some to repent (2 Peter 3:9) is only of marginal importance, you know, because "DHK on BB" has the monopoly on the Gospel and wants us to listen to what he says because he's the repository of truth, and has laid out to us all, in rank and order, the importance and weight of each book in God's Word.
I'll just believe God over you.
preacher4truth
Active Member
God bless you Iconoclast.
We've all tried, he won't see it.
As a matter of fact, the Epistles, according to DHK never ever teach that repentance is part of being saved. As a matter of fact, it's been left off since Acts according to him.
Yet, 2 Peter 3:9 says it is, plainly. (But he twists this to say I am defining repentance by showing him this passage)
I mean, anything to get out of it.
The essence of repentance is in Romans 2. I John. 2 Peter. Titus. Thess.
And Paul continued to preach it when epistles were written.
After all, God commanded men everywhere to repent. But DHK? He says we can throw that out because its history.
God found it important enough to remind us it's His gift 2 Timothy 2:25 unto salvation (and no man can be saved without the Gospel or this gift) yet DHK replies otherwise, and has diminished this gift of repentance to as unnecessary.
Hmmm. Wonder who is correct? DHK? God?
The thought itself is blasphemous.
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God bless you Iconoclast.
We've all tried, he won't see it.
As a matter of fact, the Epistles, according to DHK never ever teach that repentance is part of being saved.
Yet, 2 Peter 3:9 says it is, plainly. (But he twists this to say I am defining repentance)
I mean, anything to get out of it.
The essence of repentance is in Romans 2. I John. 2 Peter. Titus. Thess.
And Paul continued to preach it when epistles were written.
After all, God commanded men everywhere to repent. But DHK? He says we can throw that out because its history.
God found it important enough to remind us it's His gift 2 Timothy 2:25 unto salvation (and no man can be saved without the Gospel or this gift) yet DHK replies otherwise, and has diminished this gift of repentance to as unnecessary.
Hmmm. Wonder who is correct? DHK? God?
The thought itself is blasphemous.
PREACHER FOR TRUTH,
I think I understand what DHK is trying to say. I think he is defending against a works gospel,which I can agree with Him on,I think all of us understand that works have a place in the christian life...but we cannot work For salvation.....that part of what he is struggling with is okay.
I could be wrong...but I think that some who see this age..as an age of grace only...are susceptible to this making a false dicotomy between grace and law, or repentance and faith......all are parts of the whole of salvation.
When God changes us.....we have to repent of virtually everything.
Our past life of sin, our present sin, our future sin,,, our thoughts...how we use our time...how we conduct ourselves before others....our lack of love, our lack of grace.....we are needy people 2cor7:10
I would like to think that DHK...who has posted many solid posts at other times would agree with us if he could step away from the battle and consider these things. Sometimes it is frustrating to try and type on a keyboard what ideas we are trying to express.
Maybe this in part is happening here ....
preacher4truth
Active Member
Perhaps Iconoclast.
Repentance is not a work, it's a gift of grace, as you well know.
Repentance is not a work, it's a gift of grace, as you well know.
It has nothing to do with dispensations; it has everything to do with the purpose of the book that was written.
The gospels were historical books written on the life of Christ.
The Book of Acts is a historical book written on the acts of the Apostles.
However, the epistles are doctrinal books, books where we get the majority of our NT doctrine, books where Paul is teaching the believers of various churches. Essentially we get our doctrine from doctrinally-based books, not historically-based books. It has nothing to do with dispensation but rather purpose--the purpose of the book being written.
Besides it was my question. I put certain parameters in place to see if they could or could not answer it. They couldn't. It is that simple.
A saving faith includes repentance.
This is the basic truth that I have been trying to get across.
It is why the Bible does not say: Believe and repent (in the epistles).
Faith includes repentance. I have never denied repentance. Repentance is the flip side of faith. They go together.
preacher4truth
Active Member
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