is it true Historically In Church Age NO Sign Gifts Operated Until 20th Century?

[DHK]

that verse that you quoted here concering time when all these gifts shall cease...

isn't that time when the imperfect becomes perfect? When there is no more need, at the Second Coming of Christ?

NOT the canon being completed and closed?

The word "perfect" is an Old English word meaning complete, as it also means in the Greek. With that meaning in mind neither Christ or His Second Coming makes any sense. Christ is complete; not incomplete.
Secondly, Greek verbs, nouns, etc. have three genders: masc. fem. and neut. The word "perfect" or complete is in the neutral gender. All references to Christ are thus ruled out. This leaves the Word of God as the only logical conclusion. It will be complete, and when it is complete these gifts will be done away. Why? They will no longer be needed. When that which is complete is come then that which is in part (revelatory gifts) will pass away.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
(1Co 13:9-12)

These verses are not referring to the written canon. We do not yet know Christ face to face, nor do we know Him as we are known. This will not occur until we are in eternity with Him.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Here is an example of the Biblical gift of healing:

There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one. (Acts 5:16)
--Note how many people there were healed. All the cities round about, not just Jerusalem--from there they brought their sick, and Peter healed them all, even the paraplegics, the broken limbs, the deaf, blind, all that came to him, and he healed them instantly.

The equivalent of that is for a faith healer today to go into the ER of a hospital and heal all who come into it, finish there and go up and down the corridors and heal all that are in the hospital. That is what Peter was doing--healing all that were in all the hospitals in all the cities round about Jerusalem.

No one does that or can do that today.

You're erecting a standard for proof of the gift of healing that Jesus Himself doesn't meet.

In John 5:3-9, Jesus walks through a crowd of people and selects only ONE to be healed.

By your standard, Jesus did not have the gift of healing.

For some reason, opponents of the sign gifts seem to believe the gifts are exercised and empowered outside of the explicit will of God for the situation. A legitimate gift of the Spirit is exercised and empowered within the will of God, and will have no effect outside the permissive will of God.

Therefore, standards that demand that everyone be healed, someone always have a word of knowledge, or one be able to interpret all tongues they hear, etc., are themselves unbiblical.

 

[JesusFan]

You're erecting a standard for proof of the gift of healing that Jesus Himself doesn't meet.

In John 5:3-9, Jesus walks through a crowd of people and selects only ONE to be healed.

By your standard, Jesus did not have the gift of healing.

For some reason, opponents of the sign gifts seem to believe the gifts are exercised and empowered outside of the explicit will of God for the situation. A legitimate gift of the Spirit is exercised and empowered within the will of God, and will have no effect outside the permissive will of God.

Therefore, standards that demand that everyone be healed, someone always have a word of knowledge, or one be able to interpret all tongues they hear, etc., are themselves unbiblical.

That is why I keep on posting that the "sign gifts" were NOT to be seen as "Just" revelatory in their use even in Bible times...
That God was using them to edify and to lead/guide. but ALWAYS in accordance with his word...
That the Lord could still choose to use the Spiritual Gifts today IF done in biblicall order, and NEVER as revelatory, but always in agreement with his written word seems to be allowable evn for today ...

With a note tht NEVER will have word of faith heresy allowed, jesus Only allowed, NO doctrines outside what is clearly revealed to us in the bibl already!

 

[DHK]

That is why I keep on posting that the "sign gifts" were NOT to be seen as "Just" revelatory in their use even in Bible times...
That God was using them to edify and to lead/guide. but ALWAYS in accordance with his word...
That the Lord could still choose to use the Spiritual Gifts today IF done in biblicall order, and NEVER as revelatory, but always in agreement with his written word seems to be allowable evn for today ...

With a note tht NEVER will have word of faith heresy allowed, jesus Only allowed, NO doctrines outside what is clearly revealed to us in the bibl already!

Jesus performed miracles at will. He performed them primarily to demonstrate who he was--deity.
The spiritual gifts, defined as such "spiritual gifts" were supernatural gifts given to the churches which started on the Day of Pentecost. Did Jesus need a "gift." No, he was God, omnipotent, able to do all things. These "gifts" ceased, as the Word of God said they would in 1Cor.13:8, when their purpose was fulfilled. You remove a sign when the purpose for the sign is no longer needed. And that is what happened. Show me a Biblical demonstration of the gift of languages, the gift of miracles, the gift of healing, that is going on today.

 

[JesusFan]

Jesus performed miracles at will. He performed them primarily to demonstrate who he was--deity.
The spiritual gifts, defined as such "spiritual gifts" were supernatural gifts given to the churches which started on the Day of Pentecost. Did Jesus need a "gift." No, he was God, omnipotent, able to do all things. These "gifts" ceased, as the Word of God said they would in 1Cor.13:8, when their purpose was fulfilled. You remove a sign when the purpose for the sign is no longer needed. And that is what happened. Show me a Biblical demonstration of the gift of languages, the gift of miracles, the gift of healing, that is going on today.

Think part of the problem is that we are defining the gifts differently...

I hold that the Bible teaches that ALL Christians are given a Gift from the HS as he so wills at conversion, and that all of them operate in accordance to God Soverignity and the Bible...

That a Gift of healing/miracle can occur whena person prays to the Lord for 'something: to happen on behalf of another, and the Lord can freely decide to either heal/perform the miracle, or not.. If it is His will and purpose to answer and do what is being requested, it will be done, and glorify Jesus...

In same way, If a person has the Gift of faith, the Lord may "prompt/convict" them to ask of Him to do a "big thing" and God will do it, to His glory...

Just saying WHEN done in order and in Will of God, things can happen!

 

[DHK]

Think part of the problem is that we are defining the gifts differently...

I hold that the Bible teaches that ALL Christians are given a Gift from the HS as he so wills at conversion, and that all of them operate in accordance to God Soverignity and the Bible...

That may be so. But the gifts spoken of in 1Cor.12 are not for today. They were supernatural gifts for that period of time alone--the first century.
There are some today that evidence in their lives the gift of teaching, the gift of preaching, etc. But those are not "the gifts of the Spirit" that 1Cor. 12 is speaking of. They were supernatural gifts that ceased at the end of the first century.

That a Gift of healing/miracle can occur whena person prays to the Lord for 'something: to happen on behalf of another, and the Lord can freely decide to either heal/perform the miracle, or not.. If it is His will and purpose to answer and do what is being requested, it will be done, and glorify Jesus...

No one (Christian) doubts that God can heal. He does, and most often it is through prayer. Does he choose to heal all? No. Does he choose to heal all those in severe accidents with broken bones? No. Does he choose to heal all those with severe conditions? M.S.? Diabetes I, Parkinsons, various cancers? etc. No, most of these end up to be fatal in the end. The only disease that God promises to heal is death itself.

There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one. (Acts 5:16)
--All that came to Peter, no matter what condition they were in, from all the cities round about Jerusalem, were healed--no exceptions. This doesn't happen today. Peter had the gift of healing. Show me where this happens today.

In same way, If a person has the Gift of faith, the Lord may "prompt/convict" them to ask of Him to do a "big thing" and God will do it, to His glory...

Just saying WHEN done in order and in Will of God, things can happen!

As quoted above in Acts 5:16 demonstrate to me that anyone on this earth has the gift of healing. I have never heard of it, seen it, etc. If anyone had it, surely it would be well known by now. It certainly would attract a lot of attention. But it doesn't.

 

[JesusFan]

That may be so. But the gifts spoken of in 1Cor.12 are not for today. They were supernatural gifts for that period of time alone--the first century.
There are some today that evidence in their lives the gift of teaching, the gift of preaching, etc. But those are not "the gifts of the Spirit" that 1Cor. 12 is speaking of. They were supernatural gifts that ceased at the end of the first century.
No one (Christian) doubts that God can heal. He does, and most often it is through prayer. Does he choose to heal all? No. Does he choose to heal all those in severe accidents with broken bones? No. Does he choose to heal all those with severe conditions? M.S.? Diabetes I, Parkinsons, various cancers? etc. No, most of these end up to be fatal in the end. The only disease that God promises to heal is death itself.

There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one. (Acts 5:16)
--All that came to Peter, no matter what condition they were in, from all the cities round about Jerusalem, were healed--no exceptions. This doesn't happen today. Peter had the gift of healing. Show me where this happens today.

As quoted above in Acts 5:16 demonstrate to me that anyone on this earth has the gift of healing. I have never heard of it, seen it, etc. If anyone had it, surely it would be well known by now. It certainly would attract a lot of attention. But it doesn't.

Again, the Gifts can still be operational even today in the Church, but HAVE to be non revelatory/biblical order, and in accordance with Will of God!

Someone like a George Mueller ewas recognized even within his lifetime as one gifted 'with faith" as he never formally asked for funding, jusyt sent out newsletters of the time, yet God raised up 4 Million dollars in his time to provide for the orphanage!

Just saying that I am just arguing for the possibility that its not JUST the Bible and us today, that we do have the HS here to work as He so wills also!

or don't you believe that God could do as he see fits, depending on each situation?

 

[DHK]

Again, the Gifts can still be operational even today in the Church, but HAVE to be non revelatory/biblical order, and in accordance with Will of God!

Someone like a George Mueller ewas recognized even within his lifetime as one gifted 'with faith" as he never formally asked for funding, jusyt sent out newsletters of the time, yet God raised up 4 Million dollars in his time to provide for the orphanage!

Just saying that I am just arguing for the possibility that its not JUST the Bible and us today, that we do have the HS here to work as He so wills also!

or don't you believe that God could do as he see fits, depending on each situation?

God doesn't go against his nature; neither does he go against his word.
George Mueller is not known as a man who had "the gift of faith."
He was a man of God who lived by faith and saw God answer prayer time and time again. He did not have the gift of faith. Where do you get that from? Some Pentecostal book, perhaps?

 

[JesusFan]

God doesn't go against his nature; neither does he go against his word.
George Mueller is not known as a man who had "the gift of faith."
He was a man of God who lived by faith and saw God answer prayer time and time again. He did not have the gift of faith. Where do you get that from? Some Pentecostal book, perhaps?

No, heard it on Moody radio!
Don't think their pentacostal!

And isn't the Gift of faith from God that :"extra" ,easure of faith that enables person to believe God for the "big ticket items?"
NOT wealth, health, etc BUT that required for the Lord Will to be done and brought to pass?

Didn't Jesus point out many times that "their/your FAITH has made you well?"

 

[DHK]

No, heard it on Moody radio!
Don't think their pentacostal!

And isn't the Gift of faith from God that :"extra" ,easure of faith that enables person to believe God for the "big ticket items?"
NOT wealth, health, etc BUT that required for the Lord Will to be done and brought to pass?

Didn't Jesus point out many times that "their/your FAITH has made you well?"

That has nothing to do with the specific spiritual gifts that were given to the churches. Read the chapter--1Cor.12. Please learn what they were and their function. They were for that time alone. Paul was writing to the Corinthian church. He doesn't mention them in any other church for two reasons:
1. The Corinthian church were abusing these gifts.
2. This epistle was one of the first to be written (55 A.D.). The gifts were starting to die out even at that time. Thus in subsequent epistles we don't read of them.
3. They were not mere answers to prayer. They were spiritual gifts that cannot be duplicated today.

 

[JesusFan]

That has nothing to do with the specific spiritual gifts that were given to the churches. Read the chapter--1Cor.12. Please learn what they were and their function. They were for that time alone. Paul was writing to the Corinthian church. He doesn't mention them in any other church for two reasons:
1. The Corinthian church were abusing these gifts.

Which is definitly true even at the present time. That is why God had paul write inspired way to have it done biblically and in proper order...
2. This epistle was one of the first to be written (55 A.D.). The gifts were starting to die out even at that time. Thus in subsequent epistles we don't read of them.

Really no need to though, as was already referenced in 1 Cor/Romans/Hebrews
3. They were not mere answers to prayer. They were spiritual gifts that cannot be duplicated today.

Agree that they are no longer needed for their revelatort aspect/function, but why would we say that the Holy Spirit can no longer do as he wills, as long as we know that when He does it it will always agrre with the Bible and be in the Will of God!

 

[DHK]

Agree that they are no longer needed for their revelatort aspect/function, but why would we say that the Holy Spirit can no longer do as he wills, as long as we know that when He does it it will always agrre with the Bible and be in the Will of God!

It is not a matter of "can't." God doesn't speak through burning bushes like he did to Moses. The manifestations that happened at Pentecost (cloven tongues of fire, etc.) won't happen again, but not because God is impotent and cannot. Moses struck a rock and out came water. Why can't I do the same? Has that got anything to do with the power of God? God cannot...?

God does not go against his nature. And God does not go against his Word.
Those are two principles that are always true.
Since those gifts ceased, and God told us they would cease, they will not reoccur just because we want them to. They were for a specific age for a specific purpose. God is not a genie that one can carry in his pocket to take out at any time to use for his own selfish purpose, contrary to the thinking of many.

 

[JesusFan]

It is not a matter of "can't." God doesn't speak through burning bushes like he did to Moses. The manifestations that happened at Pentecost (cloven tongues of fire, etc.) won't happen again, but not because God is impotent and cannot. Moses struck a rock and out came water. Why can't I do the same? Has that got anything to do with the power of God? God cannot...?

God does not go against his nature. And God does not go against his Word.
Those are two principles that are always true.
Since those gifts ceased, and God told us they would cease, they will not reoccur just because we want them to. They were for a specific age for a specific purpose. God is not a genie that one can carry in his pocket to take out at any time to use for his own selfish purpose, contrary to the thinking of many.

So you have a 'closed" Christianity then? that God ONLY works today through the Bible?
That the Holy Spirit can deal with sinners/sainst through the Word, but he cannot function apart from it?
Cannot lead/guide/prompt/give direction etc apart from the Bible? period?

 

[DHK]

So you have a 'closed" Christianity then? that God ONLY works today through the Bible?
That the Holy Spirit can deal with sinners/sainst through the Word, but he cannot function apart from it?
Cannot lead/guide/prompt/give direction etc apart from the Bible? period?

I really don't know what you are talking about. We have seen God working in revivals. We have seen him heal people. We have seen miraculous answers to prayer. What more do you want????

But the "gifts of the Spirit" were supernatural gifts given for a specific period of time to specific individuals in the churches of the first century. If you do not believe me I challenge you:

1. Find me someone today who has the Biblical gift of healing.

2. Find me someone today who can exercise the Biblical gift of miracles.

3. Find me someone today who can exercise the Biblical gift of languages,

4. Find me someone today who can exercise the Biblical gift of interpretation of tongues.

Demonstrate that these gifts are for today by accepting this challenge. Either they are for today or they are not. If you cannot find these gifts operational today then you know that the gifts of the Spirit are no longer for today. It is that simple.

 

[mandym]

That has nothing to do with the specific spiritual gifts that were given to the churches. Read the chapter--1Cor.12. Please learn what they were and their function. They were for that time alone. Paul was writing to the Corinthian church. He doesn't mention them in any other church for two reasons:
1. The Corinthian church were abusing these gifts.
2. This epistle was one of the first to be written (55 A.D.). The gifts were starting to die out even at that time. Thus in subsequent epistles we don't read of them.
3. They were not mere answers to prayer. They were spiritual gifts that cannot be duplicated today.

How do you suppose one could abuse the move of the HG?

 

[DHK]

How do you suppose one could abuse the move of the HG?

But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? (Acts 5:3)
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. (Acts 5:4-5)

 

[mandym]

But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? (Acts 5:3)
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. (Acts 5:4-5)

This fails to answer my question

 

[DHK]

This fails to answer my question

I don't quite understand your question.

 

[mandym]

I don't quite understand your question.

If the gifts are a move of the HG how can one abuse something that takes a supernatural move of the HG?