is it true Historically In Church Age NO Sign Gifts Operated Until 20th Century?

[DHK]

If the gifts are a move of the HG how can one abuse something that takes a supernatural move of the HG?

The actual gifts of the Spirit were manifested in the first century.
The gift of tongues (languages) was being abused by the Corinthian church.
There were some that were faking it, pretending to speak in another language when they weren't.
There were others that had the gift but were speaking out of order--3 or more speaking at a time, and thus chaos in the church.
There were many that had the gift and spoke without an interpreter. Paul said that no one was to exercise this gift without an interpreter.
There were women speaking in tongues. Paul said for the women to keep silence in the church, and it was out of order for them to speak.

These were some of the reasons that Paul gave in 1Cor.14, for the members not to use the gift as they were. They were abusing it. He told them that he would rather speak five words that they could understand then 10,000 words that they could not understand. It was a showy gift (made a person look spiritual), but in the way that they were using it, it didn't edify anyone.

 

[mandym]

The actual gifts of the Spirit were manifested in the first century.
The gift of tongues (languages) was being abused by the Corinthian church.
There were some that were faking it, pretending to speak in another language when they weren't.
There were others that had the gift but were speaking out of order--3 or more speaking at a time, and thus chaos in the church.
There were many that had the gift and spoke without an interpreter. Paul said that no one was to exercise this gift without an interpreter.
There were women speaking in tongues. Paul said for the women to keep silence in the church, and it was out of order for them to speak.

These were some of the reasons that Paul gave in 1Cor.14, for the members not to use the gift as they were. They were abusing it. He told them that he would rather speak five words that they could understand then 10,000 words that they could not understand. It was a showy gift (made a person look spiritual), but in the way that they were using it, it didn't edify anyone.

Do you see the gift of tongues as a supernatural move of the HG or something that could be wielded from within man?

 

[DHK]

Do you see the gift of tongues as a supernatural move of the HG or something that could be wielded from within man?

The Biblical gift of "languages" is something only seen in the NT. I have never seen such a gift manifested in our generation, anywhere.

 

[mandym]

The Biblical gift of "languages" is something only seen in the NT. I have never seen such a gift manifested in our generation, anywhere.

Neither have I but if the gift is a supernatural manifestation of the HG then how could the HG be manipulated to the point of abusing the gift?

 

[DHK]

Neither have I but if the gift is a supernatural manifestation of the HG then how could the HG be manipulated to the point of abusing the gift?

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are or were gifts. When the gifts were abused, those who abused them would eventually give account of themselves. It is not a matter of manipulation; it is a matter of submission and obedience.

That is why I gave you the example of Annanias and Sapphira who lied against the Holy Spirit, but pretended to do the work of the Lord by giving to the church all, when they only had given a part of what they said they had given.

In Acts 11:30 it says: "For this cause many of you are weak, sickly, and some sleep (are dead)" God judged them harshly for abusing the Lord's Table. It was a matter of obedience, and in this case doing all things decently and in order.

In your actions, one can fool man, but he cannot fool God.

 

[mandym]

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are or were gifts. When the gifts were abused, those who abused them would eventually give account of themselves. It is not a matter of manipulation; it is a matter of submission and obedience.

That is why I gave you the example of Annanias and Sapphira who lied against the Holy Spirit, but pretended to do the work of the Lord by giving to the church all, when they only had given a part of what they said they had given.

In Acts 11:30 it says: "For this cause many of you are weak, sickly, and some sleep (are dead)" God judged them harshly for abusing the Lord's Table. It was a matter of obedience, and in this case doing all things decently and in order.

In your actions, one can fool man, but he cannot fool God.

Well then the use of the words "abuse" was confusing. I suppose you meant faked. But the passage does not appear to support that.

 

[DHK]

Well then the use of the words "abuse" was confusing. I suppose you meant faked. But the passage does not appear to support that.

If you read through 1Cor. ch.14, you will see that almost every verse is a rebuke to the Corinthians and their use of that particular gift of tongues, as he compares it to the profitability of the gift of prophecy.

 

[mandym]

If you read through 1Cor. ch.14, you will see that almost every verse is a rebuke to the Corinthians and their use of that particular gift of tongues, as he compares it to the profitability of the gift of prophecy.

So show me where in that chapter Paul insists they are faking it.

 

[DHK]

So show me where in that chapter Paul insists they are faking it.

That part is only personal conjecture. I will admit that.
I could take the time to go through it verse by verse and show how he rebukes them in almost every verse. At one point he tells them not to speak in tongues in public because no one understands them. He gives the example of giving thanks. Then he says "how will the people know when to say "amen"? There is no understanding in speaking in a language that no one understands.

 

[preacher4truth]

That part is only personal conjecture. I will admit that.
I could take the time to go through it verse by verse and show how he rebukes them in almost every verse. At one point he tells them not to speak in tongues in public because no one understands them. He gives the example of giving thanks. Then he says "how will the people know when to say "amen"? There is no understanding in speaking in a language that no one understands.

I've heard about a missionary who was in Saskatchewan, where a lady spoke "in tongues" during a meeting. The tongue was in a known language. An interpretor (not the gift of Biblical intepretation) declared that she, unbeknownst to her, had cursed Christ.

 

[preacher4truth]

So show me where in that chapter Paul insists they are faking it.

mandym, do you desire the gift of tongues?

 

[mandym]

mandym, do you desire the gift of tongues?

No, not unless I get in a situation where I am with someone who needs to hear the gospel and I do not speak their language.

 

[preacher4truth]

No, not unless I get in a situation where I am with someone who needs to hear the gospel and I do not speak their language.

Yes. I see. If God ever led you to that place, He can do as He wills, but I have only heard of this in rare, reported occurences.

I pray that God helps you to do so, in opening doors in where you do speak the native language to witness to His elect.

 

[mandym]

Yes. I see. If God ever led you to that place, He can do as He wills, but I have only heard of this in rare, reported occurences.

I have never heard of it happening. But If I did I would not automatically discount it.

 

[preacher4truth]

I have never heard of it happening. But If I did I would not automatically discount it.

I see. What of the rest mandym?

 

[mandym]

I see. What of the rest mandym?

The rest of the sign gifts? If they are in conjunction with sharing the gospel I would consider the credibility of the claim made. I am not a cessationist but What goes on today in the name of God with regard to supposed spiritual gifts is an abomination.

 

[Iconoclast]

what do you make of this mandy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7saG1_itJI&feature=related

 

[JesusFan]

Yes. I see. If God ever led you to that place, He can do as He wills, but I have only heard of this in rare, reported occurences.

I pray that God helps you to do so, in opening doors in where you do speak the native language to witness to His elect.

Think that a large part of the problem that comes up while discussing this area is that both sides in this are not really considering what each is saying...

Those who say ONLY some Gifts described operates today always it seems bring up that there is no additional revealtion from God today, others say their "Apostle/prophets" are getting giving that from God today...

My position is that they still do function today, for the purposes of glorifing God, and to be used in Biblical fashion/order with the Assembly per bible structure, but NO more revelation from God today, as Bibkle is indeed a closed Canon, BUT that the Holy Spirit can still do what He wills, and we know that he si the one behind what is happening as it glorifies jesus, edifies/uplifts the Assembly, and is in FULL accordance with already revealed word of God in the Bible!

 

[DHK]

I really don't know what you are talking about. We have seen God working in revivals. We have seen him heal people. We have seen miraculous answers to prayer. What more do you want????

But the "gifts of the Spirit" were supernatural gifts given for a specific period of time to specific individuals in the churches of the first century. If you do not believe me I challenge you:

1. Find me someone today who has the Biblical gift of healing.

2. Find me someone today who can exercise the Biblical gift of miracles.

3. Find me someone today who can exercise the Biblical gift of languages,

4. Find me someone today who can exercise the Biblical gift of interpretation of tongues.

Demonstrate that these gifts are for today by accepting this challenge. Either they are for today or they are not. If you cannot find these gifts operational today then you know that the gifts of the Spirit are no longer for today. It is that simple.

Are the gifts operational or not. There is no sitting on the fence.

 

[JesusFan]

Are the gifts operational or not. There is no sitting on the fence.

can we ONLY allow for some of them to be still in operation though today?
will still say revelatory aspect not for now, but that they were used by God for more then that in early Church, so still see no reason when used in those fashion ways not for today...

If their operating brings glory to God and Jesus, and they are according to Biblical order and principles, why wouldn't the Holy Spirit be involved in that?

KNOW there is just amn made emotionalism, and sayanic counterfeiting, but wouldn't a counterfeit mean there werre real deal going on also?