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Faith Received Part 2!

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Jun 22, 2011.

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  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    just wanted to strat the spiritual ball rolling once again on this topic, seemd to be generating lots of "heat!"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JesusFan
    Question that I had after reading all of this from DHK....

    God desires a relationship with His children, but didn't Jesus say the Devil as his own kids to?

    Yes, but even the devil doesn't force all the unsaved. They have a free will. The only ones that don't are those that have deliberately become demon-possessed. They have given their wills and minds over to Satan. But that is not your average person is it?

    But IF they are not born again/saved by the Grace of God, Jesus saying to us they already ARE children of the Devil!
    As Bob Dylan said, 'you gotta serve somebody, might be the Devil or the Lord, gotta serve somebody!"

    Quote:
    If God did reconcile all of us thru the Cross, why does satan have his kids still?

    What does the Bible say about reconciliation?
    To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (2 Corinthians 5:19)
    --Did he or didn't he reconcile the world unto himself? What does the verse teach? The answer is given more clearly in verse 21:

    God reconciled back to Him ALL that are saved by the Cross, not ALL peoples...

    For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Corinthians 5:21)
    --On the cross Christ was made sin. He took the penalty of the sin of the world upon himself. Why? That we, who believe, could be made the righteousness of God in him. It is the only way. But God is not finished with us yet.

    Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. (2 Corinthians 5:20)
    --God wants us to be reconciled to him, and he has given us a ministry of reconciliation as ambassadors of Christ to take the gospel to every creature that others also may be reconciled to him.

    Reconciliation can only happen when one believes on the finished work of Christ. Not all believe. Thus there remains many who are not children of God.


    Quote:
    Also
    Why all of this anger towards even the hint of the idea that God just MIGHT have elected out of a reprobate race His own people for His glory?

    Almost like mad at God for daring to suggest such a thing!

    JesusFan, Do you agree with this quote:

    Quote:
    I think the problem lies in the fine Biblical points of God's Sovereignty, such as, does He control the outcome of all things? I believe the Scriptures say He does clearly. I don't believe for one second that He does not control all things, even the thoughts and decisons of man, but that since He does, he grants to those whom He wills to grant salvation.

    Is every thought that you have put there by God. Is God that controlling?
    My response was such because I find that this view of God, in the light of Scripture, a heretical view of God. It makes God a bully, so powerful that every creature is simply a robot with no power even to think one thought. This is totally unbiblical; has no basis in Scripture whatsoever. Thus my reaction to the post, which I tried to refute with ample Scripture.

    God knows all of my thoughts, my desires, knows all things that can possible be known....

    Question back to you...

    I DONT believe God directly determines everything, as I hold to Him having a dterminitive/permissive Wills thing going on..

    BUT

    IF he did control all things directly, whom am I to tell Him"not fair/stop doing it!"
    __________________
    DHK
    I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
     
    #1 JesusFan, Jun 22, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 22, 2011
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    #2 DHK, Jun 22, 2011
  3. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    #3 JesusFan, Jun 22, 2011
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  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    #4 DHK, Jun 22, 2011
  5. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    #5 preacher4truth, Jun 22, 2011
  6. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    #6 JesusFan, Jun 22, 2011
  7. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    #7 JesusFan, Jun 22, 2011
  8. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    People who reject this use the "I don't beleive in the Total Depravity of Man" reasoning. Yet, they don't understand this concept, you can't just go by the title "total depravity" it's misleading in a sense. But most cast it off because they see it as coming from Calvin.
     
    #8 preacher4truth, Jun 22, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 22, 2011
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I reject because I do understand the concept. If you don't understand the concept perhaps you need more understanding and should study it more. It has nothing to do with Calvin, per se, for it actually came from Augustine. It is not a Biblical doctrine. I prefer to reword it completely. We are born in sin and all have inherited a sin nature.
     
    #9 DHK, Jun 22, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 22, 2011
  10. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Not my quote!

    But do hold that per the Bible we ALL are born sinners, apart from God, and unable to respond in saving faith unless.until God enables us by a work of His Grace!
     
    #10 JesusFan, Jun 22, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 22, 2011
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet, and for at least the third time, Jesusfan uses "enabled" rather than saying "irresistible grace." One must ask why do all Calvinists choose to redefine words and turn them into code for calvinism.

    Where is the verse that says "unable to respond" in a manner God would choose to credit as righteousness. Answer, nowhere. It is a Calvinism fiction. Men seek God by faith or works, as shown in passage after passage in the Bible.

    The so called "gift of faith" which is code for irresistible grace is a fiction as demonstrated by Matthew 23:13.
     
    #11 Van, Jun 22, 2011
  12. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Wonder what the word "quickened" means?

    The verse has to have those exact words to prove it theologically accurate? Where is the word rapture in Scripture? Trinity? Are they in there?

    Do you always proof-text, or do you go beyond this theologically?

    Faith being a gift, now that's in there. What did you have that you did not receive from God? Not a thing according to the Bible. 1 Cor. 4:7?

    Matthew 23:13 doesn't prove anything that you are trying to convey.
     
    #12 preacher4truth, Jun 22, 2011
  13. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Well.. According to the Apostle "Jesus Loved"
    12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become (O)children of God, even (P)to those who believe in His name, 13 (Q)who were born, not of [j]blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
    Sounds irresistable to me!
     
    #13 JesusFan, Jun 22, 2011
  14. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Your doctrine is unscriptural, the scriptures tell man numerous times to seek God.
    And there are numerous examples in scripture of men who sought God.

    2 Chron 19:3 Nevertheless there are good things found in thee, in that thou hast taken away the groves out of the land, and hast prepared thy heart to seek God.

    King Jehoshaphat was not perfect, Jehu the prophet had just rebuked him for making a league with wicked king Ahab, yet the Lord said good was found in him in that he had prepared his heart to seek God.

    I could show you many more examples, not 100% of what man does is evil, and men have the ability to seek God. Look up the word "seek" in a concordance and you will find many examples of men who sought the Lord as Jehoshaphat did.

    Jesus also told us to seek God and his righteousness. Why would a regenerate person need to seek God's righteousness? So this command is for the unregenerate. Would Jesus tell men to do what they cannot do?

    Total Inability as Calvinism teaches is unscriptural and easily reproved by much scripture.
     
    #14 Winman, Jun 22, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 22, 2011
  15. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    #15 quantumfaith, Jun 22, 2011
  16. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    #16 preacher4truth, Jun 22, 2011
  17. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    #17 quantumfaith, Jun 22, 2011
  18. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    #18 preacher4truth, Jun 22, 2011
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  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Calvin is known for his plagiarism. Total Depravity is not his idea. It was taken from Augustine. The Catholics believed it before he did.
     
    #19 DHK, Jun 22, 2011
  20. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Boy do you ever like tell whoppers DHK. Shame on you. No biblical scholar would ever charge Calvin with plagiarism. Document a single incidence of his alleged plagiarism. You are bearing false witness. And as far as Augustine is concerned --you are trying to say that Calvin stole lines from the Bishop of Hippo without acknowledgment? Then,why does he quote him so often? It's kind of hard to pin plagiarism on the man from Geneva when the one he is supposedly stealing from is citing him frequently.

    Total depravity is a biblical idea. Augustine taught it --however it is scriptural.You know that.
     
    #20 Rippon, Jun 22, 2011
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