Faith Received Part 2!

[JesusFan]

just wanted to strat the spiritual ball rolling once again on this topic, seemd to be generating lots of "heat!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by JesusFan
Question that I had after reading all of this from DHK....

God desires a relationship with His children, but didn't Jesus say the Devil as his own kids to?

Yes, but even the devil doesn't force all the unsaved. They have a free will. The only ones that don't are those that have deliberately become demon-possessed. They have given their wills and minds over to Satan. But that is not your average person is it?

But IF they are not born again/saved by the Grace of God, Jesus saying to us they already ARE children of the Devil!
As Bob Dylan said, 'you gotta serve somebody, might be the Devil or the Lord, gotta serve somebody!"

Quote:
If God did reconcile all of us thru the Cross, why does satan have his kids still?

What does the Bible say about reconciliation?
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (2 Corinthians 5:19)
--Did he or didn't he reconcile the world unto himself? What does the verse teach? The answer is given more clearly in verse 21:

God reconciled back to Him ALL that are saved by the Cross, not ALL peoples...

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Corinthians 5:21)
--On the cross Christ was made sin. He took the penalty of the sin of the world upon himself. Why? That we, who believe, could be made the righteousness of God in him. It is the only way. But God is not finished with us yet.

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. (2 Corinthians 5:20)
--God wants us to be reconciled to him, and he has given us a ministry of reconciliation as ambassadors of Christ to take the gospel to every creature that others also may be reconciled to him.

Reconciliation can only happen when one believes on the finished work of Christ. Not all believe. Thus there remains many who are not children of God.


Quote:
Also
Why all of this anger towards even the hint of the idea that God just MIGHT have elected out of a reprobate race His own people for His glory?

Almost like mad at God for daring to suggest such a thing!

JesusFan, Do you agree with this quote:

Quote:
I think the problem lies in the fine Biblical points of God's Sovereignty, such as, does He control the outcome of all things? I believe the Scriptures say He does clearly. I don't believe for one second that He does not control all things, even the thoughts and decisons of man, but that since He does, he grants to those whom He wills to grant salvation.

Is every thought that you have put there by God. Is God that controlling?
My response was such because I find that this view of God, in the light of Scripture, a heretical view of God. It makes God a bully, so powerful that every creature is simply a robot with no power even to think one thought. This is totally unbiblical; has no basis in Scripture whatsoever. Thus my reaction to the post, which I tried to refute with ample Scripture.

God knows all of my thoughts, my desires, knows all things that can possible be known....

Question back to you...

I DONT believe God directly determines everything, as I hold to Him having a dterminitive/permissive Wills thing going on..

BUT

IF he did control all things directly, whom am I to tell Him"not fair/stop doing it!"
__________________
DHK
I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

 

[DHK]

just wanted to strat the spiritual ball rolling once again on this topic, seemd to be generating lots of "heat!"

That's fine with me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JesusFan
Question that I had after reading all of this from DHK....

God desires a relationship with His children, but didn't Jesus say the Devil as his own kids to?

Yes, but even the devil doesn't force all the unsaved. They have a free will. The only ones that don't are those that have deliberately become demon-possessed. They have given their wills and minds over to Satan. But that is not your average person is it?

But IF they are not born again/saved by the Grace of God, Jesus saying to us they already ARE children of the Devil!

As Bob Dylan said, 'you gotta serve somebody, might be the Devil or the Lord, gotta serve somebody!"

It doesn't matter who you serve. Everyone still has a free will. Not the devil nor God forbids man from having a free will. Tell me: Which one (the devil or God) forbids me from saying "I love you to my wife."? Neither one. I do that of my own free will, and God does not control my thoughts even as a believer in doing so.

Quote:
If God did reconcile all of us thru the Cross, why does satan have his kids still?

What does the Bible say about reconciliation?
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (2 Corinthians 5:19)
--Did he or didn't he reconcile the world unto himself? What does the verse teach? The answer is given more clearly in verse 21:

God reconciled back to Him ALL that are saved by the Cross, not ALL peoples...

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Corinthians 5:21)
--On the cross Christ was made sin. He took the penalty of the sin of the world upon himself. Why? That we, who believe, could be made the righteousness of God in him. It is the only way. But God is not finished with us yet.

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. (2 Corinthians 5:20)
--God wants us to be reconciled to him, and he has given us a ministry of reconciliation as ambassadors of Christ to take the gospel to every creature that others also may be reconciled to him.

Reconciliation can only happen when one believes on the finished work of Christ. Not all believe. Thus there remains many who are not children of God.


Quote:
Also
Why all of this anger towards even the hint of the idea that God just MIGHT have elected out of a reprobate race His own people for His glory?

Almost like mad at God for daring to suggest such a thing!

JesusFan, Do you agree with this quote:

Quote:
I think the problem lies in the fine Biblical points of God's Sovereignty, such as, does He control the outcome of all things? I believe the Scriptures say He does clearly. I don't believe for one second that He does not control all things, even the thoughts and decisons of man, but that since He does, he grants to those whom He wills to grant salvation.

Is every thought that you have put there by God. Is God that controlling?
My response was such because I find that this view of God, in the light of Scripture, a heretical view of God. It makes God a bully, so powerful that every creature is simply a robot with no power even to think one thought. This is totally unbiblical; has no basis in Scripture whatsoever. Thus my reaction to the post, which I tried to refute with ample Scripture.

God knows all of my thoughts, my desires, knows all things that can possible be known....

Question back to you...

I DONT believe God directly determines everything, as I hold to Him having a dterminitive/permissive Wills thing going on..

BUT

IF he did control all things directly, whom am I to tell Him"not fair/stop doing it!"

First, I don't believe in determinism. So that point is moot.
What does God say about his elect?

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Peter 1:2)

That is not determinism; it is more akin to omniscience. He knows aforetime the decisions we will make. He knows whether or not we will receive Christ or reject him. He doesn't force that decision upon us. We are not controlled by God. That position is absurd. God made us in his own image and likeness and like Him, has given us a free will to choose between good and evil. If we choose evil we do it of our free will and we will pay the consequence for it. We will give an account of our bad choices, if not in this world, then in the world to come--that is before God. If God controlled all things then God would give account of himself.

 

[JesusFan]

That's fine with me.
First, I don't believe in determinism. So that point is moot.
What does God say about his elect?

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Peter 1:2)

That is not determinism; it is more akin to omniscience. He knows aforetime the decisions we will make. He knows whether or not we will receive Christ or reject him. He doesn't force that decision upon us. We are not controlled by God. That position is absurd. God made us in his own image and likeness and like Him, has given us a free will to choose between good and evil. If we choose evil we do it of our free will and we will pay the consequence for it. We will give an account of our bad choices, if not in this world, then in the world to come--that is before God. If God controlled all things then God would give account of himself.

God give us "real" free will when He made Adam and Eve, but when they fell into sin....

ALL human born since than founds themselves under the ole Luther "Bondage of the Human Will", as we are found inable in ourselves to know and come to the true and living God...

A good read, would suggest reading the condensed modern version of it!

 

[DHK]

God give us "real" free will when He made Adam and Eve, but when they fell into sin....

ALL human born since than founds themselves under the ole Luther "Bondage of the Human Will", as we are found inable in ourselves to know and come to the true and living God...

A good read, would suggest reading the condensed modern version of it!

I believe in the depravity of man; not the Total depravity of man, like the Calvinists do--there is a difference. But even then, that does not take away my free will. I will ask you again: Does having a depraved nature take away my free will so that I cannot choose to say "I love you," to my wife?

 

[preacher4truth]

God give us "real" free will when He made Adam and Eve, but when they fell into sin....

ALL human born since than founds themselves under the ole Luther "Bondage of the Human Will", as we are found inable in ourselves to know and come to the true and living God...

A good read, would suggest reading the condensed modern version of it!

People who reject this use the "I don't beleive in the Total Depravity of Man" reasoning. Yet, they don't understand this concept, you can't just go by the title "total depravity" it's misleading in a sense. But most cast it off because they see it as coming from Calvin.

 

[JesusFan]

I believe in the depravity of man; not the Total depravity of man, like the Calvinists do--there is a difference. But even then, that does not take away my free will. I will ask you again: Does having a depraved nature take away my free will so that I cannot choose to say "I love you," to my wife?

No, you can still do that, and also love your children...

BUT

You just do not have the capacity within you to "love" the true God, and His Son jesus Chrsit, to seek him and find him until/unless He enables you to do such!

For as the Apostle paul recorded, we ALL are wandering away from God and are astray, NONE seeks to do good, to seek after God in themselves...

 

[JesusFan]

People who reject this use the "I don't beleive in the Total Depravity of Man" reasoning. Yet, they don't understand this concept, you can't just go by the title "total depravity" it's misleading in a sense. But most cast it off because they see it as coming from Calvin.

Common misunderstanding that I see is they think it means you cannot even understand the Gospel, read Bible, cannot have a religion, do any good works etc...

Doctrine just states that we can do still good works, can hear/read bible, can make up own religion and god...

its just that we cannot come to know the True God apart from faith in jesus Christ, and in ourselves, apart from God enabling us by an act of grace, we cannot come to Him!

 

[preacher4truth]

God give us "real" free will when He made Adam and Eve, but when they fell into sin....

ALL human born since than founds themselves under the ole Luther "Bondage of the Human Will", as we are found inable in ourselves to know and come to the true and living God...

A good read, would suggest reading the condensed modern version of it!

People who reject this use the "I don't beleive in the Total Depravity of Man" reasoning. Yet, they don't understand this concept, you can't just go by the title "total depravity" it's misleading in a sense. But most cast it off because they see it as coming from Calvin.

 

[DHK]

People who reject this use the "I don't beleive in the Total Depravity of Man" reasoning. Yet, they don't understand this concept, you can't just go by the title "total depravity" it's misleading in a sense. But most cast it off because they see it as coming from Calvin.

I reject because I do understand the concept. If you don't understand the concept perhaps you need more understanding and should study it more. It has nothing to do with Calvin, per se, for it actually came from Augustine. It is not a Biblical doctrine. I prefer to reword it completely. We are born in sin and all have inherited a sin nature.

 

[JesusFan]

I reject because I do understand the concept. If you don't understand the concept perhaps you need more understanding and should study it more. It has nothing to do with Calvin, per se, for it actually came from Augustine. It is not a Biblical doctrine. I prefer to reword it completely. We are born in sin and all have inherited a sin nature.

Not my quote!

But do hold that per the Bible we ALL are born sinners, apart from God, and unable to respond in saving faith unless.until God enables us by a work of His Grace!

 

[Van]

Yet, and for at least the third time, Jesusfan uses "enabled" rather than saying "irresistible grace." One must ask why do all Calvinists choose to redefine words and turn them into code for calvinism.

Where is the verse that says "unable to respond" in a manner God would choose to credit as righteousness. Answer, nowhere. It is a Calvinism fiction. Men seek God by faith or works, as shown in passage after passage in the Bible.

The so called "gift of faith" which is code for irresistible grace is a fiction as demonstrated by Matthew 23:13.

 

[preacher4truth]

Yet, and for at least the third time, Jesusfan uses "enabled" rather than saying "irresistible grace." One must ask why do all Calvinists choose to redefine words and turn them into code for calvinism.

Where is the verse that says "unable to respond" in a manner God would choose to credit as righteousness. Answer, nowhere. It is a Calvinism fiction. Men seek God by faith or works, as shown in passage after passage in the Bible.

The so called "gift of faith" which is code for irresistible grace is a fiction as demonstrated by Matthew 23:13.

Wonder what the word "quickened" means?

The verse has to have those exact words to prove it theologically accurate? Where is the word rapture in Scripture? Trinity? Are they in there?

Do you always proof-text, or do you go beyond this theologically?

Faith being a gift, now that's in there. What did you have that you did not receive from God? Not a thing according to the Bible. 1 Cor. 4:7?

Matthew 23:13 doesn't prove anything that you are trying to convey.

 

[JesusFan]

Yet, and for at least the third time, Jesusfan uses "enabled" rather than saying "irresistible grace." One must ask why do all Calvinists choose to redefine words and turn them into code for calvinism.

Where is the verse that says "unable to respond" in a manner God would choose to credit as righteousness. Answer, nowhere. It is a Calvinism fiction. Men seek God by faith or works, as shown in passage after passage in the Bible.

The so called "gift of faith" which is code for irresistible grace is a fiction as demonstrated by Matthew 23:13.

Well.. According to the Apostle "Jesus Loved"
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become (O)children of God, even (P)to those who believe in His name, 13 (Q)who were born, not of [j]blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Sounds irresistable to me!

 

[Winman]

No, you can still do that, and also love your children...

BUT

You just do not have the capacity within you to "love" the true God, and His Son jesus Chrsit, to seek him and find him until/unless He enables you to do such!

For as the Apostle paul recorded, we ALL are wandering away from God and are astray, NONE seeks to do good, to seek after God in themselves...

Your doctrine is unscriptural, the scriptures tell man numerous times to seek God.
And there are numerous examples in scripture of men who sought God.

2 Chron 19:3 Nevertheless there are good things found in thee, in that thou hast taken away the groves out of the land, and hast prepared thy heart to seek God.

King Jehoshaphat was not perfect, Jehu the prophet had just rebuked him for making a league with wicked king Ahab, yet the Lord said good was found in him in that he had prepared his heart to seek God.

I could show you many more examples, not 100% of what man does is evil, and men have the ability to seek God. Look up the word "seek" in a concordance and you will find many examples of men who sought the Lord as Jehoshaphat did.

Jesus also told us to seek God and his righteousness. Why would a regenerate person need to seek God's righteousness? So this command is for the unregenerate. Would Jesus tell men to do what they cannot do?

Total Inability as Calvinism teaches is unscriptural and easily reproved by much scripture.

 

[quantumfaith]

People who reject this use the "I don't beleive in the Total Depravity of Man" reasoning. Yet, they don't understand this concept, you can't just go by the title "total depravity" it's misleading in a sense. But most cast it off because they see it as coming from Calvin.

PFT, that is not exactly accurate. I dismissed this argument long before I ever heard a mention of Mr. Calvin. I am sure others would say the same.

 

[preacher4truth]

PFT, that is not exactly accurate. I dismissed this argument long before I ever heard a mention of Mr. Calvin. I am sure others would say the same.

There's always an exception to the rule, though I find it odd anyone would hear it for very long without hearing "calvinism" attatched to it.

 

[quantumfaith]

There's always an exception to the rule, though I find it odd anyone would hear it for very long without hearing "calvinism" attatched to it.

The first time I encountered the debate was in College (Baptist College) did not get involved at that time myself. I have only begun to study and research the debate within the last 5 years.

 

[preacher4truth]

The first time I encountered the debate was in College (Baptist College) did not get involved at that time myself. I have only begun to study and research the debate within the last 5 years.

So you dismissed it right off, but have only began to study it? That you heard it in a Baptist College, but yet it was not linked to Calvinism, and then in a debate in College, is increasingly more difficult to fathom.

That you were in Baptist College, and never heard this is (attribted to Calvinism) is yet another "uh?" moment. Not picking, just saying, I'm certain you can see my points.

The name of the School was/is Baptist College?

 

[DHK]

So you dismissed it right off, but have only began to study it? That you heard it in a Baptist College, but yet it was not linked to Calvinism, and then in a debate is hard to fathom.

That you were in Baptist College, and never heard this is yet another "uh?" moment. Not picking, just saying, I'm certain you can see my points.

The name of the School was/is Baptist College?

Calvin is known for his plagiarism. Total Depravity is not his idea. It was taken from Augustine. The Catholics believed it before he did.

 

[Rippon]

Calvin is known for his plagiarism. Total Depravity is not his idea. It was taken from Augustine.

Boy do you ever like tell whoppers DHK. Shame on you. No biblical scholar would ever charge Calvin with plagiarism. Document a single incidence of his alleged plagiarism. You are bearing false witness. And as far as Augustine is concerned --you are trying to say that Calvin stole lines from the Bishop of Hippo without acknowledgment? Then,why does he quote him so often? It's kind of hard to pin plagiarism on the man from Geneva when the one he is supposedly stealing from is citing him frequently.

Total depravity is a biblical idea. Augustine taught it --however it is scriptural.You know that.