-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Proverbs 8:22
- Thread starter Jaocb77
- Start date
In my opinion, wisdom in the OT Book of Proverbs is the personification of God's wisdom, as the evil woman (ch. 7) may be seen as the personification of human folly.
A personification is the representation of a thing or a quality as a person, often described as a poetic device in literature, song, and art. Personifications closer to our time can be heard in songs about rivers, such as Ol' man river (sung by Paul Robeson in the 1936 film Showboat) or Shenandoah (sung by Tennessee Ernie Ford in this clip).
For in-depth discussions on woman wisdom and her counterpart woman folly, see one of the following Bible commentaries written by Tremper Longman III.
Proverbs (Baker Academic, 2006).
How to Read Proverbs (InterVarsity Press, 2002).
Proverbs--Isaiah: Vol. 6 in the series Expositor's Bible Commentary, Rev Ed. (Zondervan, 2008).
The Minor Prophets, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs: Vol. 5 in the series Zondervan Illustrated Bible Backgrounds Commentary (Zondervan, 2009).
How to Read Proverbs (InterVarsity Press, 2002).
Proverbs--Isaiah: Vol. 6 in the series Expositor's Bible Commentary, Rev Ed. (Zondervan, 2008).
The Minor Prophets, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs: Vol. 5 in the series Zondervan Illustrated Bible Backgrounds Commentary (Zondervan, 2009).
...Bob
Last edited by a moderator:
From the 22nd verse on Wisdom would definitely define Christ. But in the first three verses wisdom is referred to in the feminine, which would apply to the Church and which would harmonize with passages from the NT such as:
23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto Jews a stumblingblock, and unto Gentiles foolishness;
24 but unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 1 Cor 1
6 We speak wisdom, however, among them that are fullgrown: yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nought:
7 but we speak God`s wisdom in a mystery, even the wisdom that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds unto our glory:
8 which none of the rulers of this world hath known: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory: 1 Cor 2
I believe wisdom in the feminine is also used in contrast to the harlot in Proverbs also.
Hi Bob. Thanks for the response. Many bible versions say that wisdom was created or produced. if this is true, then it means that there was a time when God did not have wisdom. How do we reconcile this?
Please give examples of modern versions saying this.
RSV
Pro 8:22 The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.
NIV
Pro 8:22 The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
Amplified bible
The Lord formed and brought me [Wisdom] forth at the beginning of His way, before His acts of old.
Good News Translation
The Lord created me first of all,the first of his works, long ago.
Jaocb77...
I really do not want to get all wrapped up in this thread. The genre of Wisdom Literature appears to be quite complex, to our way of thinking. I am no Biblical scholar, I just know what I read in my retirement from a business career. On this particular topic I stated my opinion in my first post.
Here is a link about the genre of Wisdom Literature in the OT of the Bible: The Wisdom Literature (NIV Study Bible).
I see you posted the Biblical verses in question. However, I really do not see anything to reconcile--Wisdom comes from God. I do not think we can put forth any kind of timeline when, where, and how God blessed man with wisdom. Furthermore, in my opinion, I do not think the verse should be taken as a type (or some other literary device) for Christ.
Finally, let me offer the following verse from Proverbs, in the four versions that I use.
...Bob
For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding. (Prov. 2:6; KJB).
For the Lord gives wisdom;
from his mouth come knowledge and understanding; (Prov. 2:6; NRSV).
For the LORD gives wisdom,
and from his mouth come knowledge and understanding. (Prov. 2:6; NIV 1984).
For the Lord grants wisdom!
From his mouth come knowledge and understanding. (Prov. 2:6; NLT 2007).
For the Lord gives wisdom;
from his mouth come knowledge and understanding; (Prov. 2:6; NRSV).
For the LORD gives wisdom,
and from his mouth come knowledge and understanding. (Prov. 2:6; NIV 1984).
For the Lord grants wisdom!
From his mouth come knowledge and understanding. (Prov. 2:6; NLT 2007).
Last edited by a moderator:
Thanks for your response. Perhaps others will jump in as well
preacher4truth
Active Member
You're attempting, as they say, to make this passage "walk on all fours."
The Proverbs are meant for their principles.
Obviously God is Wisdom, and to suggest there was a time He did not have wisdom, is to deny all other Scriptures, and to deny an eternal attribute of God. Therefore you can conclude that it doesn't mean God at one point didn't have wisdom. Just think about it.
I agree completely. This is why I brought up this passage. because we see the word "create" in the bible. Did God "create" wisdom?
I too am curious about the support in scripture for the idea that at some point God lacked wisdom. Seems unlikely in that God's very thoughts are wisdom.
Now when God gives us wisdom or makes known wisdom to us, the person who lacked it beforehand was us, not God.
Now Jesus in the flesh grew in wisdom, but all that demonstrates is He set aside information when He became flesh, so that He would experience life as we do. So this does not indicate God the Father ever lacked wisdom.
Now I believe the concept of "total omniscience" is a mistaken view of scripture, but I do not believe the scriptural references to God's wisdom demonstrate its validity or invalidity.
convicted1
Guest
Uh, no, I do not think God created wisdom. There are just some things about Him that none of us, in our finite minds, can fully grasp. He has everly been, we have not. There has never been one millisecond when He never existed. There has been an etenity past, when we did not exist. The thing that "boggles" my mind is this; there has been centuries when we didn't exist, and even before the earth was formed, but God has always been in existance. My puny, little, finite mind just can't comprehend this. But as long as God has been, which is eternity(and this is mind boggling), there has been His wisdom...which He has always had. Wow, my head is reeling!!
I know that some cults like the Jehovah's Witnesses, who deny the deity of Christ, use Proverbs 8 as a proof text that Christ was created because they believe that Wisdom is Christ. But when you ask them who is Prudence, Shrewdness and Discernment which are found in Proverbs, they either can't answer or claim that these are all attributes of Jesus. I like some of the bible versions that use the word "possessed:, as in: "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old".,Instead of: "The Lord created me.".
I believe this was just a Hebrew poem and that these are attributes we should have.
The NIV, HCSB and NET bible render "ganah" as brought forth or made or created, rather than possess.
Now if the thoughts, ideas and words of God are wisdom, then the wisdom of God is eternal and was not created. So what is the idea in Proverbs 8:22. The idea is that God created the mechanism to reveal His Word to creation at the beginning of creation. The second person of the Trinity was "established, set, appointed, brought forth" as "the Word of God" who became flesh. He became for us the wisdom of God.
Now if the thoughts, ideas and words of God are wisdom, then the wisdom of God is eternal and was not created. So what is the idea in Proverbs 8:22. The idea is that God created the mechanism to reveal His Word to creation at the beginning of creation. The second person of the Trinity was "established, set, appointed, brought forth" as "the Word of God" who became flesh. He became for us the wisdom of God.
Last edited by a moderator:
If this verse pertains to God's wisdom, then the KJB has it correct in using the word:" possess" rather than create or made. since God has always possessed wisdom rather than created it for Himself. But then what about Prudence, Discernment and Shrewdness? Are they all referring to God as well?
psalms109:31
Active Member
Wisdom from His work
Is He talking about wisdom He created from His work that we can obtain that was established before it even began?
Like for instance He reveals Himself through what He has made.
It is wisdom that we can have that He reveals through what he has made that reveals to us wisdom about God?
It is so hard to put in words, that scripture makes it clearer than I can put into words.
Is He talking about wisdom He created from His work that we can obtain that was established before it even began?
Like for instance He reveals Himself through what He has made.
It is wisdom that we can have that He reveals through what he has made that reveals to us wisdom about God?
It is so hard to put in words, that scripture makes it clearer than I can put into words.
Last edited by a moderator:
psalms109:31
Active Member
Proverbs 8:
11 for wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.
If you want signs and miracle's just look around you and what He has made and worship the Creator of them all. There is nothing new under the sun. Nothing can be made out of nothing that our God can do.
11 for wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.
If you want signs and miracle's just look around you and what He has made and worship the Creator of them all. There is nothing new under the sun. Nothing can be made out of nothing that our God can do.
Last edited by a moderator:
This was read at a recent deacon's meeting and I went home and re-read again because it is a powerful passage. Prov. 8 It seems to me Christ is speaking of himself as wisdom, remembering also we are the body of Christ so when he speaks of himself he speaks of we also, We being the church.
And he is the head of the body, the church:
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
In that passage from Romans 8 conformed to the to the image of his Son, is this not the same image spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:49 we shall also bear the image of the heavenly, which is a post resurrection image compared to our physical image we were born with from our parents?
So our post resurrection image in Christ, which is spiritual see verse 46 of 1 Cor. 15 is different from the image we had before death. Was this not true of Jesus also? The first man Adam a living soul was the figure of him to come, that is the Word made flesh. The Word was made flesh, a living soul.
This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:
Did Jesus come forth from the grave as the Word that had been made flesh, that is as a resurrected man the last Adam a quickening spirit? 1 Cor.15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. Does the next verse say this is after the resurrection? Howbeit that not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Was the resurrection of the Word made flesh not a new creature in whose image we shall be conformed? Afterward?
Do these next two verses have the same contextual meaning as the created verse of Prov. 8? Is Wisdom speaking in this context? The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: so that if any one in Christ -- a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things.
And he is the head of the body, the church:
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
In that passage from Romans 8 conformed to the to the image of his Son, is this not the same image spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:49 we shall also bear the image of the heavenly, which is a post resurrection image compared to our physical image we were born with from our parents?
So our post resurrection image in Christ, which is spiritual see verse 46 of 1 Cor. 15 is different from the image we had before death. Was this not true of Jesus also? The first man Adam a living soul was the figure of him to come, that is the Word made flesh. The Word was made flesh, a living soul.
This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:
Did Jesus come forth from the grave as the Word that had been made flesh, that is as a resurrected man the last Adam a quickening spirit? 1 Cor.15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. Does the next verse say this is after the resurrection? Howbeit that not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Was the resurrection of the Word made flesh not a new creature in whose image we shall be conformed? Afterward?
Do these next two verses have the same contextual meaning as the created verse of Prov. 8? Is Wisdom speaking in this context? The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: so that if any one in Christ -- a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things.
I had thought that wisdom in Proverbs 8 referred to Jesus Christ. However, it also mentions Prudence, Discernment and Shrewdness along with Wisdom. So who or what are the others? Other Christians have said that proverbs 8 is a Hebrew poem and that all these are attributes that men should have.
I couldn't follow the gist of your post. Do you believe Christ was created, or is he from everlasting to everlasting, without beginning or ending?
preacher4truth
Active Member
Why does each one have to be a person? This again is attempting to make this walk on all fours.