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Does God Control and/or Know All things? A continuation...

Does God Know All things and is Everything Under His Control?

  • God does not know all things.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Saying God uses sin to accomplish His will makes God sinful, and you are wrong!!!!

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I can't grasp Biblical Truth that God controls everything, I should "Selah" and go consider.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • It worries me seeing God controls all things to accomplish His Sovereign purpose and will.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Seeing God as having/Giving God all Authority is wrong and Unscriptural, He is not this Sovereign.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    3
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Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Me too! I'd have to study it's meaning and context, and the link does not get me there.

Just google "Westminster Confession." It's a well known and respected Reformed confession of faith and it appears he quoted from it to show that even those of the "Calvinistic" persuasion even affirm an aspect of human liberty while your statements may not appeared to leave room for such.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
A small thing really in light of p4t replies to others throughout this board. Nevertheless, noted.

I didn't take the time to read through the thread, but if you notice a violation of the posting rules you can report any post for evaluation. I just happened to enter this discussion to find your comment. Sorry, I know it's not fair. It's kind of like when the ref gives the foul to the guy retaliating. :)
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
P4T,

When you say "God controls our thoughts" what exactly do you means by that? Do you mean He originates our thoughts, or that he foreknows them but permits them to exist?

Great questions brother.

I think in His permissive will, He allows our thoughts, yet He can at anytime intervene our thoughts, and direct and turn our thoughts/hearts to accomplish His will.

I believe in allowing Satan to terrorize and/or influence man and/or to insert thoughts into man, to accomplish His purposes, He also shows He is in control there also.

Being falsely represented in the past, no, I do not think that He puts every thought into our minds, at all. Man is responsible obviously for his own wicked thoughts, but this is also permitted, as God in Genesis did destroy the then world because the thoughts of mens hearts were continually evil, as one given reason.

But I do believe by His Sovereign reign, He controls all of this either permisively, or by His determinitive counsel to intervene and direct them.

I also think, perhaps, the overthrow of Babel to be along the same lines as this. God saw the evil, He saw the counsel, He intervened all of it to His purposes.
 

Winman

Active Member
P4T,

When you say "God controls our thoughts" what exactly do you means by that? Do you mean He originates our thoughts, or that he foreknows them but permits them to exist?

Skan, how is God controlling our thoughts any different from putting them there? If God is controlling our thoughts, then we can only think that which he wills.

P4T has accused me of not answering his questions when I went into great detail of what I believe with supporting scripture in the closed thread. Short term memory loss?

If God is controlling Satan, a person would have to conclude that God is directing war against himself, as God and Satan are at war.

I have answered him in detail several times, but he refuses to answer my question, "Is God directing war against himself?"

He knows the fact that God is at war against Satan refutes his view.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Great questions brother.

I think in His permissive will, He allows our thoughts, yet He can at anytime intervene our thoughts, and direct and turn our thoughts/hearts to accomplish His will.
I agree. I would add that I think God typically (if not always) does this though normative or outward means. For example, look at the story of Jonah. Certainly God could have just made Jonah want to preach to Nineveh, right? I mean, He had the ability to just "flip a switch" in Jonah's heart and make his desire change, agreed?

But, He didn't. He used circumstances and allowed Jonah to make a decision in the face of overwhelming and convincing evidence of God's power. Same is true of Paul and his road to Damascus experience. Seems to me God does intervene in time and space to assure His appointed messengers deliver His appointed message. The question is: Does this conclusively prove that God likewise causes their listeners to believe the message? In other words, does proof that God uses effectual circumstances to ensure that a messenger is sent to Nineveh conclusively prove that God uses inward irresistible means to make certain individuals in their audience believe?
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
Skan, how is God controlling our thoughts any different from putting them there? If God is controlling our thoughts, then we can only think that which he wills.

P4T has accused me of not answering his questions when I went into great detail of what I believe with supporting scripture in the closed thread. Short term memory loss?

If God is controlling Satan, a person would have to conclude that God is directing war against himself, as God and Satan are at war.

I have answered him in detail several times, but he refuses to answer my question, "Is God directing war against himself?"

He knows the fact that God is at war against Satan refutes his view.


God is at war with Satan? Let me ask, if God really went to "war" with Satan, what would happen?

Is God in control of Satan, Winman? Please answer this.

Is anything too hard for Him? I believe there to be absolutely no competition between a created fallen creature and Almighty God. I believe Satan to perhaps be at war with God, but not vice versa. God is in Sovereign control of this fallen being. In totality. All that is happening now is to fulfill Gods purpose.

Thus, I believe your question to be flawed. I think your understanding to be confused in the matter, and your question is then based off of that confusion.
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
I agree. I would add that I think God typically (if not always) does this though normative or outward means. For example, look at the story of Jonah. Certainly God could have just made Jonah want to preach to Nineveh, right? I mean, He had the ability to just "flip a switch" in Jonah's heart and make his desire change, agreed?

But, He didn't. He used circumstances and allowed Jonah to make a decision in the face of overwhelming and convincing evidence of God's power. Same is true of Paul and his road to Damascus experience. Seems to me God does intervene in time and space to assure His appointed messengers deliver His appointed message. The question is: Does this conclusively prove that God likewise causes their listeners to believe the message? In other words, does proof that God uses effectual circumstances to ensure that a messenger is sent to Nineveh conclusively prove that God uses inward irresistible means to make certain individuals in their audience believe?

WOW!!! That is awesome brother!!!!!

I believe that God accomplishes His appointed messages to those whom He has appointed as heirs to His kingdom and nothing can thwart this nor any of His purposes. And that whatsoever He wills in it shall not and cannot be overthrown.

All He purposes to do will come to pass fulfilling that purpose. Even to the creation of this world, all ages, serve to fulfill His ultimate purpose.
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
Just google "Westminster Confession." It's a well known and respected Reformed confession of faith and it appears he quoted from it to show that even those of the "Calvinistic" persuasion even affirm an aspect of human liberty while your statements may not appeared to leave room for such.

I see. Well, for the record, I do not for once believe God to control every single thing we do, nor do I believe He puts every single thought into our minds.

I don't believe anything we do to be without His knowledge at all. I believe He knows all things. I also believe man to be responsible. I hope this helps clear that up.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I see. Well, for the record, I do not for once believe God to control every single thing we do, nor do I believe He puts every single thought into our minds.

I don't believe anything we do to be without His knowledge at all. I believe He knows all things. I also believe man to be responsible. I hope this helps clear that up.
I am glad you have "repented" (had a change of mind) with respect to your theology. For what you have posted above is not what you posted earlier in the day, in the now closed thread. Here is what you said previously.
I think the problem lies in the fine Biblical points of God's Sovereignty, such as, does He control the outcome of all things? I believe the Scriptures say He does clearly. I don't believe for one second that He does not control all things, even the thoughts and decisons of man, but that since He does, he grants to those whom He wills to grant salvation.

Quite a difference isn't there?
 

Gershom

Active Member
Does God use sin to accomplish His purposes? Certainly He does.

Yes. When man sins, God can certainly turn it for good.

Does God control/give/direct thoughts, turn thoughts and hearts to accomplish His purposes?

God does not give evil thoughts. Through meditation upon His word, we can transform our minds to think right thoughts. All through the Bible we are instructed to meditate upon His word, to guard our hearts, to take thoughts captive, etc. These admonitions would not be in His word if He took control of our minds, leaving out our free will.

In allowing Satan to inflict and misdirect, and put thoughts into hearts, who then is still in control of this?

Control as in controlling the wheel, it would be satan or man's free will. God may determine the outcome, but the act itself is controlled by the conductor.

That God allows man to think thoughts, without intervening, who then is really in control?

God determines the outcome, man controls the act.

When God Himself turns hearts to accomplish His purposes, who is in control there?

If God supernaturally turns it, God controlled it.

Note, I've never implied God gives man, nor does He put into man each and every thought as another has falsely claimed me to say. To say such is to react knee jerk without looking at facts, as too many fellow Baptists do, to their shame.

OK

When God is directing our thoughts, to accomplish His will, who is in charge?

God directs mans thoughts through meditation upon His word. Man is in charge of the meditation which will bring God's direction through His written will.

Either God is all control of all things, and nothing is done which He didn't foreknow, and that nothing that happens occurs to God later is factual, or He is in fact not God.

God didn't control Eve when she took the fruit. She controlled herself. God turned what man controlled and brought about restoration.

One on here (so far) says God does not know all things. This is a fallacy. Or, does God just simply not know all things, as Copeland theology, word-faith proponents teach, or is such teaching in error, and God does in fact know all things, and such teaching is then erroneous?

Jesus said no-one knows, not even Himself of the day when He will return, but the Father.

I have described that God controls all thoughts and outcomes according to His purposes and determinitive counsel, and by permissive counsel, still showing He to be in control of all situations, since permission implies ability to intervene.

To the best of your ability.

Two more things: Christ is God, and Christ and the Godhead are perfectly sinless. Any aligning of God as the author of sin, due to His permitting of sin to accomplish His purposes, is solely upon the one who falsely claims I have said so, which I in fact vehemenently deny.

OK

Incapability of seeing God in Control and equating it with evil is fallacy and shallow theological error.

The debate comes with the actual meaning of the word "control" and how it is used.

God can and does Sovereignly control all things, and is free from sin and corruption in it because His nature is Pure, Just and Holy and Incorruptible. Thus he and He alone can control all things and remain pure. To equate control with evil is to not understand that God is pure and holy, and is a reflection on those who do espouse this as being erroneous in their understanding of the nature of God, and that He is incorrutpible.

Again, the debate comes from the use of the word "control" and its context.

All of the above describe that God is purely Sovereign. I expect that several will beg to differ and seek to strip God of His rightful place.

See this is where contention builds mostly. Because others have a different understanding, you want to charge them with stripping God of who He is. Give others a little credit.

Let's move forward here. Let's not add to words, or name call, and be as men and women, and as you claim, Christian.

OK, but practice what you preach.
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
I am glad you have "repented" (had a change of mind) with respect to your theology. For what you have posted above is not what you posted earlier in the day, in the now closed thread. Here is what you said previously.

Quite a difference isn't there?
[/SIZE]

No. There is no difference whatsoever. Just perhaps misunderstaning.

Nothing I said in my post contradicts my present wording.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
I believe that God accomplishes His appointed messages to those whom He has appointed as heirs to His kingdom and nothing can thwart this nor any of His purposes. And that whatsoever He wills in it shall not and cannot be overthrown.
The point I was attempting to make is that God's active intervention to ensure Jonah's decision is an exception not the rule. So, for example, to say that God controls Jeffery Dahmer's choice to rape, murder and kill children using the same terminology that you would use in describing his control over Jonah's choice to preach is unfounded. He was actively intervening through outward/normative means in affecting Jonah's choice and in that regard would be "in control." There is nothing to suggest that He was actively intervening in this manner with Dahmer's choices, so is it accurate to say his is equally "in control" over Dahmer's choices?

Certainly, you could say he knew about Dahmer's choices and permitted them to occur, but that is different from what he did with Jonah. This is the difference between God's active and permissive will. To simply say God is "in control" can have different connotations and cause confusion, because God is not "in control" in the same manner in these different circumstances.
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
Yes. When man sins, God can certainly turn it for good...God does not give evil thoughts. Through meditation upon His word, we can transform our minds to think right thoughts. All through the Bible we are instructed to meditate upon His word, to guard our hearts, to take thoughts captive, etc. These admonitions would not be in His word if He took control of our minds, leaving out our free will...Control as in controlling the wheel, it would be satan or man's free will. God may determine the outcome, but the act itself is controlled by the conductor...God determines the outcome, man controls the act...If God supernaturally turns it, God controlled it...OK...God directs mans thoughts through meditation upon His word. Man is in charge of the meditation which will bring God's direction through His written will...God didn't control Eve when she took the fruit. She controlled herself. God turned what man controlled and brought about restoration...
Jesus said no-one knows, not even Himself of the day when He will return, but the Father...To the best of your ability...OK...The debate comes with the actual meaning of the word "control" and how it is used...Again, the debate comes from the use of the word "control" and its context...See this is where contention builds mostly. Because others have a different understanding, you want to charge them with stripping God of who He is. Give others a little credit...OK, but practice what you preach.

I’ve never stated nor believed God gives man evil thoughts. Although He does certainly allow it and also permits satanic influence upon it. Therefore, I believe He is in control.

I don’t believe man controls the act whatsoever, but only as He is permitted to do so. There is the difference, thus, if permitted, who is truly in control?

I think this will answer the rest of your following reply.
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
The point I was attempting to make is that God's active intervention to ensure Jonah's decision is an exception not the rule. So, for example, to say that God controls Jeffery Dahmer's choice to rape, murder and kill children using the same terminology that you would use in describing his control over Jonah's choice to preach is unfounded. He was actively intervening through outward/normative means in affecting Jonah's choice and in that regard would be "in control." There is nothing to suggest that He was actively intervening in this manner with Dahmer's choices, so is it accurate to say his is equally "in control" over Dahmer's choices?

Certainly, you could say he knew about Dahmer's choices and permitted them to occur, but that is different from what he did with Jonah. This is the difference between God's active and permissive will. To simply say God is "in control" can have different connotations and cause confusion, because God is not "in control" in the same manner in these different circumstances.

I get you. But God permitted Dahmers grotesque sin. Being that God is Holy and Just and incorruptible, He can control all things, permissively, and determinitively, and this cannot touch nor destroy His perfect nature. Thus, His understanding is incomprehensible in this. This is one of the many things that man cannot this side, even pretend to comprehend.

By permitting and allowing and determining, He is ultimately in control. Can I explain all things to the satisfaction of all in this? No way. Does that mean God is not in control of all these things? Absolutely not. Does this make God the author of it? God forbid!

Our finite minds our looking through that dark glass still. Someday we will be capable of glorifying God in perfect understanding in all of it? I think so.
 
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Winman

Active Member
God is at war with Satan? Let me ask, if God really went to "war" with Satan, what would happen?

Is God in control of Satan, Winman? Please answer this.

Is anything too hard for Him? I believe there to be absolutely no competition between a created fallen creature and Almighty God. I believe Satan to perhaps be at war with God, but not vice versa. God is in Sovereign control of this fallen being. In totality. All that is happening now is to fulfill Gods purpose.

Thus, I believe your question to be flawed. I think your understanding to be confused in the matter, and your question is then based off of that confusion.

Read chapter 10 of Daniel. In vs. 5 a man appears to him whom he calls "my lord" in vs 17. But this man was withstood by the prince of the kingdom of Persia 21 days.

Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Whether this was the Lord, or simply one of his angels, this person was prevented from coming to Daniel for 21 days and needed "help" from Michael whom most believe one of the most powerful archangels. I absolutely believe God will always be victorious over Satan, but that does not mean he is not a competent and powerful foe.

And then he returns to fight this prince of Persia.

Dan 10:20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I am come to thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and lo when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia will come.

Satan isn't following God's orders, he is fighting against God.

So, is God directing Satan to fight against himself?
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
Yes. When man sins, God can certainly turn it for good.



God does not give evil thoughts. Through meditation upon His word, we can transform our minds to think right thoughts. All through the Bible we are instructed to meditate upon His word, to guard our hearts, to take thoughts captive, etc. These admonitions would not be in His word if He took control of our minds, leaving out our free will.



Control as in controlling the wheel, it would be satan or man's free will. God may determine the outcome, but the act itself is controlled by the conductor.



God determines the outcome, man controls the act.



If God supernaturally turns it, God controlled it.



OK



God directs mans thoughts through meditation upon His word. Man is in charge of the meditation which will bring God's direction through His written will.



God didn't control Eve when she took the fruit. She controlled herself. God turned what man controlled and brought about restoration.



Jesus said no-one knows, not even Himself of the day when He will return, but the Father.



To the best of your ability.



OK



The debate comes with the actual meaning of the word "control" and how it is used.



Again, the debate comes from the use of the word "control" and its context.



See this is where contention builds mostly. Because others have a different understanding, you want to charge them with stripping God of who He is. Give others a little credit.



OK, but practice what you preach.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
 

Gershom

Active Member
The point I was attempting to make is that God's active intervention to ensure Jonah's decision is an exception not the rule. So, for example, to say that God controls Jeffery Dahmer's choice to rape, murder and kill children using the same terminology that you would use in describing his control over Jonah's choice to preach is unfounded. He was actively intervening through outward/normative means in affecting Jonah's choice and in that regard would be "in control." There is nothing to suggest that He was actively intervening in this manner with Dahmer's choices, so is it accurate to say his is equally "in control" over Dahmer's choices?

Certainly, you could say he knew about Dahmer's choices and permitted them to occur, but that is different from what he did with Jonah. This is the difference between God's active and permissive will. To simply say God is "in control" can have different connotations and cause confusion, because God is not "in control" in the same manner in these different circumstances.

Good post. :thumbs:
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
Read chapter 10 of Daniel. In vs. 5 a man appears to him whom he calls "my lord" in vs 17. But this man was withstood by the prince of the kingdom of Persia 21 days.

Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Whether this was the Lord, or simply one of his angels, this person was prevented from coming to Daniel for 21 days and needed "help" from Michael whom most believe one of the most powerful archangels. I absolutely believe God will always be victorious over Satan, but that does not mean he is not a competent and powerful foe.

And then he returns to fight this prince of Persia.

Dan 10:20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I am come to thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and lo when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia will come.

Satan isn't following God's orders, he is fighting against God.

So, is God directing Satan to fight against himself?

Winman, do you think for a moment God did not allow nor permit that withstanding in Persia, to accomplish in perfect timing His will? Answer whether this was a surprise and a flank upon His goal, or if He foreknew this.

Come on Winman, see Gods Glory in it. This wasn't some "oh no, we have a delay here" in Gods economy.

Since your reasoning is lacking the above understanding, your question remains off track and untenable friend.

Your logic demands God have a "plan b" which denies his Omniscience and other attributes.

I see God way above these things.
 
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Gershom

Active Member
I’ve never stated nor believed God gives man evil thoughts. Although He does certainly allow it and also permits satanic influence upon it. Therefore, I believe He is in control.

I don’t believe man controls the act whatsoever, but only as He is permitted to do so. There is the difference, thus, if permitted, who is truly in control?

I think this will answer the rest of your following reply.

I publicly repent of my superman comments. Sorry p4t.
 
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