Ye must be born again !

[Dr. Walter]

Ok lets see how you explain this.

Just a couple of points here. First I believe that humans are made up of 3 Parts or that we like God are a triune being. We are body, Mind, and Spirit (Soul). it seems to me that you further select Spirit and make it two things that you differentiate Spirit and Soul. The Spirit being the only Regenerated aspect of the human being where the Mind, body and soul have yet to be redeemed. In my view God is in the process of redeeming us wholly in all three aspects and giving us a new nature is the begining of it. Note in my mind the "nature" crosses all aspects of humanity Body, mind, and spirit. The evidences for this is a renewed mind which we must "stay in christ" (vine branch allegory) or constantly keep renewing our mind as Paul teaches, and the future promise of a physcial resurrection for our bodies. However, it seems to me your saying regeneration only affects the human spirit.

I am not saying that regeneration "only affects the human spirit" but I am saying that it is the human spirit that is regenerated. Once regenerated, the human spirit "affects" both soul and body for righteousness but ONLY when it is empowered by the indwelling Spirit of God. The regenerated human spirit is the source from within the human nature that God's Spirit works righteousness progressively to and through the soul which finds expression through and in the body which makes visibly manifests the life you live.

I believe each aspect of the human nature (spirit, soul and body) are trichotomous as well. The soul is the seat of rationale, emotions and will and the soul is self-consciousness as self consciousness includes your thinking, feelings and choices. The human spirit is the seat of conscience, communion and intuition. The spirit is the other world consciousness. The body is presented in scripture as composed of flesh, blood, bone and the body is this world consciousness. Hence man operates on three levels of consciousness - other world consciousness - the human spirit; inner world or self consciousness - the human soul and outer world consciousness or the human body which contains the five senses to have conscious interaction with the outer world.

When the human spirit is unregenerated, it is in communion with the spiritual kingdom of darkness, the "spirit that now worketh in" the children of disobedience and therefore the soul is brought under the spiritual influence of the unregenerated spirit and the product or consequence is "disobedience" and hatred toward God. The unregenerated spirit of man is not only in communion with the spirtiual world (demons) but the conscience is defiled by sin and the intuition may be used by demons to channel demonic wisdom and supernatural insights. When the human spirit is regenerated, there is no more access to the human spirit by demons, the defiled conscience is washed from its defilement of sin and intuition becomes the faculty of the Holy Spirit to impart insights directly to the aspect of the soul called the "mind" without any mental work (study, etc.). Hence, the regenerated spirit can "affect" the soul which in turn affects the body all in a domino affect.

Regeneration of the human Spirit is inseparable from spiritual union with God as it is God the Holy Spirit that washes the defilement of sin from the conscience, enters into communion and directly imparts divine insights and wisdom and thus the regenerated human spirit is the "inward man" that delights in the law of God. True holiness and righteousness has been "created" or the Divine image has been restored by an act of creation by the Spirit of God within the human spirit so that the faculties of the human spirit are united with true holiness and righteousness and thus the conscience is washed from the defilement of sin, the intution becomes a faculty of the Spirit of God to impart divine insights and wisdom directly apart from any kind of mental work in the human soul. The human soul (self-conscieousness = mind, will, emotions) is commanded by God to "put on" this inward man, that is adopt the righteousness, or walk after the righteousness created by God in our spirit, the righteousness approved by our conscience, the righteousness directly imparted through intution to our minds - the witness of the Spirit, the righteousness that is provided experientially to our soul (minds and feelings) through the human spirit's faculty of communion with the spiritual world - The Holy Spirit.

The soul's faculty of choice must always choose between walking after "the flesh" where indwelling sin exists or walking after the spirit where the indwelling Holy Spirit exists. The person with the regenerated spirit possesses a soul that is always under its influence to choose righteousness but has no power to choose righteousness. Herein lies the difficulty. Only the Indwelling Spirit of God can provide the power to empower the righteous inclination of the soul, which is a by product of a regenerated spirit. The inclination is always there in the person who has a regenerated spirit but the power exists only in the Spirit of God indwelling that person.


The soul of a person with a regenerated spirit has inclination toward righteousness (as the spirit is the governing inclination that influences the mental emmotional aspect of the soul, but the soul must choose to "put on" that inclination through the acts of the body. Whenever the soul attempts to exercise this action or attempts to empower that inclination through the acts of the body it runs into the resistance of indwelling sin and always, always is overpowered by indwelling sin UNLESS the soul (mind/thinking) first dies to self ability, consciously admits its own impotence to empower righteousness through the body and consciously by faith acknowledges complete dependence upon the indwelling Spirit of God to empower the righteousness inclination derived in the spirit of man and thus the inward man is "put on" through the body in words and deeds as long as the child of God is "filled" empowered by the Spirit of God.

The person with the regenerated spirit may walk "after the flesh" or "after the spirit" at any point in time. However, walking after the spirit is only accomplished when that person is in a conscious surrender to the indwelling Spirit of God and only then is the regenerated spirit of man which is the spirit created in true holiness and righteousness, which is that aspect of the human nature restored completely in the image of God, which is the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit, which is the union of the Spirit of God with the human spirit, "put on" by the soul of man in and through the body of man.

The human soul (mind,emotions,will) or the self-conscious aspect of man is the medium of indwelling sin and indwelling righteousness depending upon whether it puts on the flesh or the spirit or walks after the flesh or the spirit and therefore is distinct from both the flesh and the spirit of man. The flesh of man has not been regenerated by God and neither has the soul of man but it is the "spirit" of man that has been born of Spirit (Jn. 3:6). The soul of man is that aspect of man that CONSCIOUSLY puts on the "inward man" created in true holiness and rightousness or puts on the outward man - the soul is the DECIDER but it is POWERLESS even though it is always inclined to righteousness due to a regenerated spirit:

18 For I (conscious self- soul) know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will [to choose rightesouness] is present with me; but how to perform [power] that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I [soul-conscious self] would I [soul-conscious self] do not [through the body]: but the evil which I ]soul-conscious self] would not [through the body], that I [soul-conscious self] do [through the body].
20 Now if I [soul-conscious self] do [through the body] that I [soul-conscious self] would not [through the body], it is no more I [soul-consicous self] that do it [through the body], but sin that dwelleth in me [that is in my flesh].
21 I find then a law, that, when I [conscious self]would do good [through the body], evil [indwelling sin in my flesh] is present with me.[soul-conscous self]
22 For I [soul-conscious self] delight in the law of God after the inward man [regenerated spirit]:
23 But I [soul-conscious self] see another law in my members [that is in my flesh], warring against the law of my mind [mental inclination of soul to do good] to do good [in my body], and bringing me [soul-conscious self] into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I [soul-conscious self] am! who shall deliver me [soul-conscious self] from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind [mental inclination to do good] I myself [soul-conscious self] serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[DHK]

Sorry, at present this point is about Jesus statement " Ye must be born again" That is not a command .

Go and study. See what it means. The answer is in the passage itself: John 3:1-13.

 

[DHK]

MATTHEW 3 [11] I indeed baptize you with WATER UNTO REPENTANCE: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with THE HOLY GHOST, and with fire:

Hes simply pointing out you must 1st repent of your sins

That was John the Baptist's message, a message of the Old Testament. He was the last of the OT prophets. Go to the epistles where the gospel is fully explained. The gospel, good news, includes the resurrection (1Cor.15:1-4).
Show me from the epistles where repentance is even included in the gospel as it is taught in the epistles.

Even your own statement is wrong.
There is no statement in all the Bible where it tells an unregenerate person to repent of all his sins. That is a false doctrine perpetuated by people who don't know any better.

Tell me. Can you remember all your sins that you have ever committed from childhood onward, let alone repent of each one of them.

 

[DHK]

Didnt you post these scriptures

Originally Posted by preacher4truth

Acts 17:30. Repentance is part of the Gospel message, part of being born-again. Also in 2 Peter 1:1 and elsewhere.

All are commanded to repent, it's part of being born-again, part of the Gospel.

Mark 1 is also part of the OP. I believe John the Baptist preached repentance.

Mar 1:4 John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Im a bit confused i guess. What am i missing?

The first part of the OP states this:

John 3:7

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

When Jesus told Nicodemus that except a man be born again he cannot see [perceive] the Kingdom of God as per vs 3

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The title of the thread is:
You must be born again.

Regardless of what the rest of the OP says, the topic of the thread is "You must be born again.

 

[DHK]

Can anyone explain these 2 scriptures. Im just trying to get to the truth. Could the key word in 1Peter1 be seed? And the fully sprouted plant (1Cor.15 {42})

The first Scripture is very relevant. It speaks of the new birth. "We are born again by the word of God." That is what the verse says.
The second Scripture has no relevance at all. It speaks of the resurrection and is not tied in to the resurrection.

 

[DHK]

1COR.15
[42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. IT IS SOWN IN CORRUPTION; IT IS RAISED IN INCORRUPTION:
[43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. THERE IS A NATURAL BODY, AND THERE IS A SPIRITUAL BODY.

It can get confusing. Is verse 44 explaining the 3rd spiritual birth

The resurrection and the new birth are two different topics, and are unrelated.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The first part of the OP states this:

The title of the thread is:
You must be born again.

Regardless of what the rest of the OP says, the topic of the thread is "You must be born again.

Without the new birth one cannot "see" or "enter" the kingdom of God. Ephesians 4:18 defines the new birth in the same way as the mind is "darkened" and the heart is in "blindness." Note both "darkened" and "blindness" are consequences of "being alienated from the life of God" and to be alienated from the life of God is to be unregenerated.

Eph. 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Nicodemus cannot UNdarken his understanding and neither an he remove the blindness of his heart. Regeneration is a CREATIVE act of God that only God alone can do and it "MUST" be done or else none can "see" or "enter" into the kingdom of God.

Jesus further illustrates the problem in John 3:17-19 in that man by nature LOVES DARKNESS and WILL NOT COME to the light because His deeds of evil.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.


If he does come to the light it is EVIDENCE that God has performed this work of regeneration in him:


21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[DHK]

Without the new birth one cannot "see" or "enter" the kingdom of God. Ephesians 4:18 defines the new birth in the same way as the mind is "darkened" and the heart is in "blindness." Note both "darkened" and "blindness" are consequences of "being alienated from the life of God" and to be alienated from the life of God is to be unregenerated.

Eph. 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

These verses have nothing to do with the new birth, nor is the new birth mentioned in them. They may support related doctrines but not the new birth specifically.

Nicodemus cannot UNdarken his understanding and neither an he remove the blindness of his heart. Regeneration is a CREATIVE act of God that only God alone can do and it "MUST" be done or else none can "see" or "enter" into the kingdom of God.

This is your take on it, but your not getting it from the passage.

Jesus further illustrates the problem in John 3:17-19 in that man by nature LOVES DARKNESS and WILL NOT COME to the light because His deeds of evil.

The trouble here is that it appears from the text that the conversation with Nicodemus ends at verse 12. After that we see no more interaction. The rest of the passage was probably spoken by Jesus, but even that is not for sure. It could have been narrated by John.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Again, this has nothing to do with the discussion between Christ and Nicodemus.

If he does come to the light it is EVIDENCE that God has performed this work of regeneration in him:
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

This is simply a truth stated of every believer. Those that come to Christ will do God's works.

But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God." (John 3:21) WEB

The same truth is stated here:
For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. (Mark 9:41)

Now back to the new birth.
What does it mean to be born again?

 

[Chowmah]

That was John the Baptist's message, a message of the Old Testament. He was the last of the OT prophets. Go to the epistles where the gospel is fully explained. The gospel, good news, includes the resurrection (1Cor.15:1-4).
Show me from the epistles where repentance is even included in the gospel as it is taught in the epistles.

This is what Jesus said

MARK 1 [14] Now after that John was put in prison, JESUS CAME INTO GALILEE, PREACHING THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD, [15] And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: REPENT YE, AND BELIEVE the gospel.

Repent and believe

 

[DHK]

This is what Jesus said

MARK 1 [14] Now after that John was put in prison, JESUS CAME INTO GALILEE, PREACHING THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD, [15] And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: REPENT YE, AND BELIEVE the gospel.

Repent and believe

1Cor.15:1-4 The gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
This message is pre-cross. Find such a message after the Book of Acts.
You will not find repentance as part of the gospel message in the epistles.

Remember that before that time this was a message to the Jews.

Neither does he say to repent of all your sins.

Go and learn what repentance is.

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk:

Go and study. See what it means.

You are late, and this Thread is the fruit of my study of what it means when Jesus said " Ye must be born again " !

 

[DHK]

dhk:



You are late, and this Thread is the fruit of my study of what it means when Jesus said " Ye must be born again " !

If a man is born once he will die twice.
If a man is born twice he will die once.

Therein is the essence of the truth of the being born again.

You have no clue what the new birth is about; what it means to be born again. Keep studying.

 

[Chowmah]

1Cor.15:1-4 The gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
This message is pre-cross. Find such a message after the Book of Acts.

Rev.3
[3] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
[19] As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

There are plenty more of these "repent" scriptures after the book of Acts

 

[Chowmah]

This is what Jesus said

MARK 1 [14] Now after that John was put in prison, JESUS CAME INTO GALILEE, PREACHING THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD, [15] And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: REPENT YE, AND BELIEVE the gospel.

Repent and believe the gospel

I really need not look past the book of Acts for proof even though i did and found plenty. I think ill simply believe Jesus

 

[DHK]

Rev.3
[3] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
[19] As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

There are plenty more of these "repent" scriptures after the book of Acts

This is written to the church. The gospel is for the unsaved. Believers must always repent of individual sins on a daily basis (1John 1:9) in order to maintain a proper relationship with God. But it is not part of the gospel.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
Note that "repent" is not there.

 

[DHK]

I really need not look past the book of Acts for proof even though i did and found plenty. I think ill simply believe Jesus

Jesus had not died yet. He just said the kingdom of God is at hand. He was speaking to the Jews who were expecting the kingdom.

 

[Chowmah]

Jesus had not died yet. He just said the kingdom of God is at hand. He was speaking to the Jews who were expecting the kingdom.

Romans 10:12 (KJV)
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Doesnt matter.

 

[DHK]

Romans 10:12 (KJV)
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Doesnt matter.

Quite true. Now what has that got to do with the new birth.
You must be born again.

 

[percho]

Hello preacher for truth. What is it youre to repent of? Sin, right? Sin is the transgression of the law according to new covenant scripture. So your saying in order to be born again you must keep the law. I agree.

Maybe born again means to be created with the law within you.

 

[Dr. Walter]

These verses have nothing to do with the new birth, nor is the new birth mentioned in them. They may support related doctrines but not the new birth specifically.

Are you telling me that being "alienated from the life of God" is not a description of the unregenerate condition and the reversal is not a description of the regenerate state??????? Ephesians 4:18 certainly does have everything to do with the new birth but from the reverse perspective. It is a description of the former UNREGENERATED state.

Regeneration is divine quickening - giving spiritual life, making alive, reversal of spiritual death and anyone who denies this simply is ignorant of the a,b,c's of regeneration, new birth, born again. The unregenerate state is a state of spiritual "darknesss" and "blindness" (Eph. 4:18) so that one cannot "see" spiritually or perceive spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). Nicodemus is being explicitly told that unless a person is "born again" he CANNOT "SEE" the kingdom of God and neither can he "ENTER" the kingdom of God. Jesus is not simply referring to some future earthly kingdom (although that is the culminative truth) but he is referring to the present SPIRITUAL KINGDOM that one is translated into through the new birth.

Failure to "see" is not talking about poor physical eyesight but is failure to comprehend spiritual things. Jesus tells Nicodemus are you a teacher and do not understand (see)these things? That is precisely why He tells Nicodemus one "must" be born from above.

If I am wrong - prove it don't just make some unproven, empty accusation!

This is your take on it, but your not getting it from the passage.

Prove it! Prove that my understanding of this passage is contrary to the passage. Your empty unverified assertion means nothing!

Jesus explicity asks "Art thou a teacher of Israel and DO NOT UNDERSTAND these things"??? That is implication of inability to understand the spiritual truths being conveyed to him by Christ. His whole response demonstrates spiritual blindness to the elementary truths of the new birth. You are as wrong as Nicodemus about the new birth.

The trouble here is that it appears from the text that the conversation with Nicodemus ends at verse 12. After that we see no more interaction. The rest of the passage was probably spoken by Jesus, but even that is not for sure. It could have been narrated by John.

The Grammar demonstrates your opinion is absolutely false. Note the pronoun "you" in verse 12 which has for its antecedent "ye" in verse 11 which in turn has its grammatical antecedent "we" in verse 2. The next two verses begin with "and" which shows continuation. You simply do not know what you are talking about.


.

Again, this has nothing to do with the discussion between Christ and Nicodemus.

This conclusion of yours is as presumptious as your last conclusion and is no more Biblically accurate than your last conclusion. John 3:12-19 has everything to do with His conversation with Nicodemus. The contextual factors demand it is His instructive response to Nicodemus's complete ignorance of the new birth. Man comes into the world condemned already because he is spiritually dead and spiritual death is the unregenerate state and the unregenerate state is a state of SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS and DARKNESS of the heart. The New birth is a creative act of God as described in Ephesians 2:1,5,8,10 which is the reversal of the condition described in Ephesians 4:18. It is a creative act of God - "for we are His workmanship CREATED in Christ Jesus" and that act is further described in the New Covenant descrption in Ezek 36:26-27 as God giving his elect a NEW heart and NEW spirit and it is described in 2 Cor. 3:3-6 as giving spiritual life.

This is simply a truth stated of every believer. Those that come to Christ will do God's works.

You are jerking this statement from its context. Jesus first says that men come into this world in a condemned condition. They come into this world in spiritual darkness and hatred toward God. In that condition they will not come to Christ, will not love God, will not do the works of God. The reversal of that SPIRITUAL condition is the NEW BIRTH which produces the very opposite of an unregenerated state. The production of the unregenerated state is described in Ephesians 2:2-3 and the new birth - divine quickening reverses that state (Eph. 1:1,5,10) and that is exactly what Christ is saying to Nicodemus. Those who do come to the light and do good works in contrast to those just described is due to the New Birth adn it is "WROUGHT IN GOD." That is, God gets the credit for this reversal.

But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God." (John 3:21) WEB

The same truth is stated here:
For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. (Mark 9:41)

Pure nonsense! These two texts above have nothing in common with each other. Mark 9:41 deals with consequences of good works which is rewards whereas John 3:21 deals with CAUSES of good works which is the NEW BIRTH just exactly as Paul places them in a cause consequence relationship in Ephesians 2:10

"For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS unto good works..."

In John 3:21 and Ephesians 2:10 God is the CAUSE for good works and the cause is the CREATIVE work which in context is defined as the new birth or divine quickening (Eph. 2:1,4,10). You are confusing texts that deal with two different concepts. John 3:21 and Ephesians 2:1,5,10 deal with the CAUSE of good works whereas Mark 9:41 deals with the CONSEQUENCES of good works.

Now back to the new birth.
What does it mean to be born again?

It is apparent you have no concept of what the Bible teaches about the New birth. It is very very simple and it is apparent what it is by looking at the response of Nicodemus. He responds that it must be entering back into his mother's womb to be born all over again. Howeve, Jesus defines that birth as coming into this world with a NATURE that is condemned, a NATURE that hates light, loves sin and will not come to God.

Jesus understands that birth with that nature and explains it perfectly in John 3:6 "born of flesh" and in John 3:18-20. That is precisely why Jesus says one MUST be born AGAIN! Not of the flesh which comes with the nature of the flesh but "of the Spirit" which comes with the nature of the Spirit - a nature that is not condemned, that does love light, that does come to the truth, that does do the works of God. This birth is the creative work of God and not of man - "what is BORN OF SPIRIT is spirit." The New birth is giving a NEW NATURE contrary to that which comes by natural birth - a nature that loves light, comes to the light - because it is the act of God that gives eyes to see, ears to hear and a heart to love the things of God.