The 24 Elders enthroned and Crowned who are they?

[revmwc]

Revelation 4:
1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

John is called up into heaven in verse one of Revelation 4 after hearing a voice as if it were a trumpet. For most pre-trib - pre-mil proponents this is a sign of the church being called out in 1 Thessalonians and 2 Corinthians 15. Almost all non-pre-trib pre-mil say it shows nothing of that. But then you must explain who the 24 elders John sees seated, clothed in white raiment and crowns on their heads.

Notice the promises to the church of rewards,

1 Corinthians 9:25 incorruptable crown

1 Thessalonians 2:19 crown of rejoicing

2 Timothy 4: 8 crown of righteousness

James 1:12 crown of life

1 Peter 5:4 crown of glory

5 Crowns promised to the believers of the church, in which we see no such crowns promised to those in O.T. or non-church believers.

Then notice too they are clothed in white raiment.

Revelation 3: 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see

Revelation 19: 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Notice that unto those who hear what is said to the churches in Asia Minor written in the book of Revelation white raiment clean and white will be what they are dressed in, the bride in Revelation 19 is clothed in White.

To the point if not the church in heaven and the 24 elders representing her as crowned and clothed in white then who are they?

 

[HankD]

Revelation 4:
1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

John is called up into heaven in verse one of Revelation 4 after hearing a voice as if it were a trumpet. For most pre-trib - pre-mil proponents this is a sign of the church being called out in 1 Thessalonians and 2 Corinthians 15. Almost all non-pre-trib pre-mil say it shows nothing of that. But then you must explain who the 24 elders John sees seated, clothed in white raiment and crowns on their heads.

Notice the promises to the church of rewards,

1 Corinthians 9:25 incorruptable crown

1 Thessalonians 2:19 crown of rejoicing

2 Timothy 4: 8 crown of righteousness

James 1:12 crown of life

1 Peter 5:4 crown of glory

5 Crowns promised to the believers of the church, in which we see no such crowns promised to those in O.T. or non-church believers.

Then notice too they are clothed in white raiment.

Revelation 3: 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see

Revelation 19: 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Notice that unto those who hear what is said to the churches in Asia Minor written in the book of Revelation white raiment clean and white will be what they are dressed in, the bride in Revelation 19 is clothed in White.

To the point if not the church in heaven and the 24 elders representing her as crowned and clothed in white then who are they?

After studying the Book of Revelation for many years I have come to the conclusion that Revelation is not necessarily a chronological book.

i.e. Chapter 4 may not be an event that comes in a seamless chronology behind chapters 1-3.

Chapter 4, in my estimation, may be a jump ahead look to the eternal state of the New Jerusalem described in Chapter 21. The 24 elders a signification of redeemed Israel and the Church.

Revelation 21

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.​

Twelve tribe patriarchs plus twelve apostles equals 24 elders.

The Book of Revelation also seems to make use of a literal tool called chiasmus.​

chi·as·mus
Noun: A rhetorical or literary figure in which words, grammatical constructions,
or concepts are repeated in reverse order, in the same or a modified form;
e.g. ‘Poetry is the record of the best and happiest moments of the happiest and best minds.’.
Wikipedia - Dictionary.com - Answers.com - Merriam-Webster

I don't believe inspiration excludes the chiasmus approach.

Plus, a chiastic view of Revelation is certainly not unknown.
Here is an example, it just an example, and I don't necessarily agree with the ouline(s).​

http://www.666beast.net/chiastic.htm​

A chiastic view of Revelation, if true, is certainly an additional challenge to understanding an already difficult book.​

HankD​

 

[revmwc]

After studying the Book of Revelation for many years I have come to the conclusion that Revelation is not necessarily a chronological book.

i.e. Chapter 4 may not be an event that comes in a seamless chronology behind chapters 1-3.

Chapter 4, in my estimation, may be a jump ahead look to the eternal state of the New Jerusalem described in Chapter 21. The 24 elders a signification of redeemed Israel and the Church.

Revelation 21

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.​

Twelve tribe patriarchs plus twelve apostles equals 24 elders.

The Book of Revelation also seems to make use of a literal tool called chiasmus.​

chi·as·mus
Noun: A rhetorical or literary figure in which words, grammatical constructions,
or concepts are repeated in reverse order, in the same or a modified form;
e.g. ‘Poetry is the record of the best and happiest moments of the happiest and best minds.’.
Wikipedia - Dictionary.com - Answers.com - Merriam-Webster

I don't believe inspiration excludes the chiasmus approach.

Plus, a chiastic view of Revelation is certainly not unknown.
Here is an example, it just an example, and I don't necessarily agree with the ouline(s).​

http://www.666beast.net/chiastic.htm​

A chiastic view of Revelation, if true, is certainly an additional challenge to understanding an already difficult book.​

HankD​

The 24 elders have been taught as you say 12 from Israel and 12 Apostles, but what I see is the crowns and white raiment is what we see promised to the Church not the Jews, the Jews were promised the Messianic Kingdom and Christ reigning in it, the Church was to be the Bride and receive crowns and white raiment. Crowns for faithful service and white raiment as overcomers. These 24 Elders fit that promise, they ar wearing Crowns and Are clothed in White Raiment.

Something else to consider is Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

As Christ comes notice verse 14 those that come with Him are clothed in fine linen clean and white (i.e. White Raiment) again associated with the Church Believers.
The Bride is arrayed Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Verse 8 the wife is clothed in fine linen clean and white, the marriage has taken place, the church has gone from Bride to wife. She is with Him when he comes in judgement.

 

[HankD]

The 24 elders have been taught as you say 12 from Israel and 12 Apostles, but what I see is the crowns and white raiment is what we see promised to the Church not the Jews, the Jews were promised the Messianic Kingdom and Christ reigning in it, the Church was to be the Bride and receive crowns and white raiment. Crowns for faithful service and white raiment as overcomers. These 24 Elders fit that promise, they ar wearing Crowns and Are clothed in White Raiment.

Something else to consider is Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

As Christ comes notice verse 14 those that come with Him are clothed in fine linen clean and white (i.e. White Raiment) again associated with the Church Believers.
The Bride is arrayed Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Verse 8 the wife is clothed in fine linen clean and white, the marriage has taken place, the church has gone from Bride to wife. She is with Him when he comes in judgement.

Thanks rev, I will look into these things you have mentioned.

I too make a distinction between redeemed Israel and the church.

As Israel had an earthly phase, so also the church both having distinctive promises. However it seems both will share the celestial dwelling place of the New Jerusalem, new earth and heaven.

But even with that distinction, surely there must be some common eternal gifts in the eternal state of all true believers where we will live together for forever in the New Jerusalem.

Crowns and white robes as metaphors were not unknown under the OT economy:

Psalm 103

1 Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;
4 Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;​

Ecclesiastes 9:8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.​

HankD​

 

[percho]

Regardless of what you think/believe about verse 10 of Rev. 1 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

I wish some or all of you would look at the whole of Revelation from this perspective. That being, the Lord's day being the great and terrible day of the Lord and the book is written with that day being the things which are of verse 19 Rev 1, that is the day of the Lord as being the present,

You can do a quick study or indepth. I have not done this other than like a scan knowing that chapters 21, 22 are definitely hereafter everything. Also just how long is the day of the Lord? I would assume from scripture it could be anywhere to one twenty four hour day, to one thousand years.

Revmwc, Rev. 4:1 I think the key word is hereafter. Hereafter what? My concept would put these twenty four elders after the day of the Lord.

From one of HankD's post
Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain (past tense) for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Assuming the day of the Lord doesn't begin until after the sun is darkened and the moon turned to blood this would put these prior to the day of the Lord.

I have not studied any of this to really comment and is the reason I ask you who are more advanced than I to do so and comment.

Of course the first thing you have to do is be able to do is look differently at verse 10 of chapter 1. I do believe just as Ezekiel was carried about by the Spirit to different times and places so could have been John. Also I also believe Paul when we was carried up to paradise was in the Spirit and saw things he could not write about, saw these very same things John saw but God did not commission Paul to write them but John was to write them at a later time.

Thank you all.

 

[HankD]

Regardless of what you think/believe about verse 10 of Rev. 1 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

I wish some or all of you would look at the whole of Revelation from this perspective. That being, the Lord's day being the great and terrible day of the Lord and the book is written with that day being the things which are of verse 19 Rev 1, that is the day of the Lord as being the present,

You can do a quick study or indepth. I have not done this other than like a scan knowing that chapters 21, 22 are definitely hereafter everything. Also just how long is the day of the Lord? I would assume from scripture it could be anywhere to one twenty four hour day, to one thousand years.

Revmwc, Rev. 4:1 I think the key word is hereafter. Hereafter what? My concept would put these twenty four elders after the day of the Lord.

From one of HankD's post
Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain (past tense) for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Assuming the day of the Lord doesn't begin until after the sun is darkened and the moon turned to blood this would put these prior to the day of the Lord.

I have not studied any of this to really comment and is the reason I ask you who are more advanced than I to do so and comment.

Of course the first thing you have to do is be able to do is look differently at verse 10 of chapter 1. I do believe just as Ezekiel was carried about by the Spirit to different times and places so could have been John. Also I also believe Paul when we was carried up to paradise was in the Spirit and saw things he could not write about, saw these very same things John saw but God did not commission Paul to write them but John was to write them at a later time.

Thank you all.

Thanks percho, I appreciate your observation concerning the scripture ministry differences between John and Paul, but don't forget about what I mentioned concerning the chronology of Book of Revelation.

After the phrase "shall be hereafter" of Chapter 1 vs 19, everything following wherever that phrase points to (although being in the future) may not necessarily be in chronological order and portions may revert back in later chapters to an earlier (hobeit future to the marker) point in time. But perhaps you have alluded to that technique in your response above.

The Book of Revelation hints at the fact that its interpretation will be difficult:

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches...
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches...
Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches...
Revelation 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches...
Revelation 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches...​

Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.​

Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.​

HankD

 

[percho]

Thanks percho, I appreciate your observation concerning the scripture ministry differences between John and Paul, but don't forget about what I mentioned concerning the chronology of Book of Revelation.

After the phrase "shall be hereafter" of Chapter 1 vs 19, everything following wherever that phrase points to (although being in the future) may not necessarily be in chronological order and portions may revert back in later chapters to an earlier (hobeit future to the marker) point in time. But perhaps you have alluded to that technique in your response above.

The Book of Revelation hints at the fact that its interpretation will be difficult:

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches...
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches...
Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches...
Revelation 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches...
Revelation 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches...​

Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.​

Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.​

HankD

Very true and who knows what time frame chapter 12 falls in.

 

[HankD]

Very true and who knows what time frame chapter 12 falls in.

Yes, it does seem to be a summary of sorts.

HankD

 

[percho]

Yes, it does seem to be a summary of sorts.

HankD

I hope Rev will give some thoughts on this for I believe he has studied this book a lot more than I have.

 

[revmwc]

I hope Rev will give some thoughts on this for I believe he has studied this book a lot more than I have.

The starting point for the Tribulation is seen in Revelation 4, the messages to the churches done then we see John say "1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. " Notice He says after this meaning after the messages to the churches he saw a door opened in Heaven. Then He heard the voice of the trumpet as it were calling him saying come up hither. Then He sees heaven and the 24 elders with crowns and white raiment.
Look at Revelation 3 and the beginning of the message to the Laodecian church, 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked

The luke warm church is seen and look today at our churches. Rampantly luke warm, up until the 80's we saw evangelist come and preach revivals now we see pastors trying to do the job of an evangelist. We saw churches holding to the truth now we see compromise upon compromise. We see a falling away people turning from the truth to fables.

We are seeing the end of the age which Paul and others predicted. Notice though Verse 1 of Chapter 4 Joh saw heaven opened just like the heaven will open when Christ comes to snatch the church out and then the trumpet sounds just as Paul says in 1 Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians 15. Then we see the elders in heaven crowned and in white raiment.
Revelation 4 reveals the church being snatched away in such a beautiful way it shouldn't be missed but as we have seen it is missed by many. The messages to the church complete the scene in heaven unfolds and reveals the elders, the things happening in heaven as judgement begind on earth and chapter 7 begins to reveal the earth and things happening there.