How Calvin helped create Unitarianism

[Rippon]

Countering the Nonsense that Wescott was Unitarian

The following quotes are from his : The Epistles of St. John :

"In both passages a glimpse is given of the essential relations of the Divine Persons,and we learn that the idea of Father lies in the Deity itself and finds fulfilment in the Deity." (p.10)

"The denial of the personal union of true manhood and true Godhead in Christ involves the denial of the essential relations of Fatherhood and Sonship in the Divine Nature." (p.74)

 

[Nazaroo]

The above post was written in answer to comments by Rippon about Anglicans. But of the names you mention, several were not Anglicans at all. Philip Doddridge, Lachmann, Tischendorf, and Meyer were certainly not, unless you are thinking of different men with the same name. There were several that I couldn't check on, simply because I did not have enough facts to narrow down my search. I am thinking of men like Bode and Bloomfield for example.

Regarding Samuel Prideaux Tregelles (1813-1875), he started off in a Plymouth Brethren assembly, but there seems to be some confusion about what he next became. The Dictionary of National Biography (Oxford, 1959-60): XIX, 1097, says he became a Presbyterian. F. H. A.Scrivener, in A Plain Introduction to the Criticism of the New Testament, says he became an Anglican. T. C. F. Hunt says that the Brethren assembly with which he was associated maintained its independence, but "gradually adopted an organisation similar to that of the Presbyterians."

Nazaroo, I am also rather puzzled by the dates you give in brackets. For instance, by Doddridge's name, you have (1808), yet Philip Doddridge died in 1751. Philip is the one that immediately springs to my mind when I see the surname Doddrige, but you may mean someone else.

I would politely request that you do four things:

1. Define the men you are writing about more exactly
2. Tell us what the years beside the names mean
3. Give some kind of source for statements like, "The Mid-1800s were the peak of British faithful scholarship," and "These men were all Jesuit moles"
4. Stop using epithets like "idiots" and "stupid" when referring to those with whom you disagree.
​

Many thanks!

1. I said best British scholarship, not necessarily "Anglican" but naturally everyone in England was nominally "Church of England since Henry the VIII until probably about 1830.

2. The years given beside the names were simply the latest published editions or best available reprints of their best work, or seminal work (i.e., Greek NTs etc.) Those are the most useful dates for searchs

3. I can't "source" opinion.

4. "idiot" is a kind word, letting them off the hook for culpability. However, I think they are NOT off the hook, because some of them took pay from the Jesuits, which I can't prove, but don't care to, either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReoIXojq_xw&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3dRPOvxkA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b1YjvNpIUU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPPOYeg8H5c

 

[Rippon]

The Epistle to the Hebrews by B.F.Westcott

I barely have enough time for one quote.

"Let us cling to our faith in Him,whom we openly confess,as truly human,truly Divine." (p.106)

 

[DHK]

They were indeed conservative Anglicans of their day. Spurgeon had good things to say about Westcott.

You really have to apologize about saying that Naz was probably right "about them ascribing to Unitarianism." That is an utterly baseless and reckless charge. That is beneath you to say as a moderator on the Baptist Board.

I will say this. There are many that say close to the same thing as Naz says. However, I haven't checked their sources. They say they get it from the personal correspondence that Hort had with Westcott. Perhaps I should discount that in spite of the fact that there is so much of it on the internet and in other books.

What I did do last night is to pick up Westcott's commentary on the Gospel of John and start reading what he had to say on John 1:14. It was a beautiful exegesis on the incarnation on how the word became man, and indeed was the God-man. That doesn't sound like Unitarian doctrine to me. The words of Westcott himself outweigh the words of others. Therein I must stand.

 

[DHK]

Could you please document this charge without resorting to Riplinger,Waite,Sorenson and others of that ilk?

Could you please drop that charge against me.

Apparently you didn't read what I posted.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1701753&postcount=128

 

[Dr. Walter]

deleted......

 

[preacher4truth]

deleted..........

 

[Nazaroo]

Well, the last two messages have completely stumped me.

Obvously something must have happened since I logged in last.

If someone is slandering any living people without grounds,
that seems to me to be inappropriate.

I've seen a lot of this however, even whole threads about people, myself included, on other forums (like BibleVersions Board etc.)

All I can say is, talk to the admin or moderator and have the person posting the stuff traced and banned.

peace
Nazaroo

 

[Rippon]

Could you please drop that charge against me.

Apparently you didn't read what I posted.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1701753&postcount=128

Apparently you didn't read the post you are responding to. I specifically challenged you to provide documentation of Hort's alleged involvement with the occult. Your article didn't address that topic at all.

Cite a reputable source without resorting to the likes of Riplinger,Waite, Sorenson and Co.

 

[DHK]

Apparently you didn't read the post you are responding to. I specifically challenged you to provide documentation of Hort's alleged involvement with the occult. Your article didn't address that topic at all.

Cite a reputable source without resorting to the likes of Riplinger,Waite, Sorenson and Co.

Why do you keep on with this? Have I yet used any of the above sources. One source I would never use is Riplinger. I haven't use the others. I don't know what your problem is. I don't think you are reading my posts carefully.

 

[Nazaroo]

Rippon is beginning to sound like a broken record.

 

[Rippon]

Why do you keep on with this? Have I yet used any of the above sources. One source I would never use is Riplinger. I haven't use the others. I don't know what your problem is. I don't think you are reading my posts carefully.

Unblock your ears,put your specs on --listen and read. Please provide documentation which deals with Hort's alleged involvement with the occult. I don't want to put things in bold print --do you now understand with this third attempt of mine?

For crying out loud DHK --address this once and for all. You do specialize in ignoring the obvious.

 

[Rippon]

Rippon is beginning to sound like a broken record.

Your record is that of inventing things out of thin air. Plus,you don't even answer legitimate questions even after I repost them several times. I guess if you'd reply to my queries you would feel uncomfortable or something.

 

[Rippon]

I will say this. There are many that say close to the same thing as Naz says.

Yes,wacko fringe groups at the extreme end of the KJVO movement.

What I did do last night is to pick up Westcott's commentary on the Gospel of John and start reading what he had to say on John 1:14. It was a beautiful exegesis on the incarnation on how the word became man, and indeed was the God-man.

Finally commonsense has prevailed.

That doesn't sound like Unitarian doctrine to me. The words of Westcott himself outweigh the words of others. Therein I must stand.

Good. I agree completely. Don't be so quick to believe trash in the future.

 

[Nazaroo]

Yes,wacko fringe groups at the extreme end of the KJVO movement.
.

Except I'm not a KJVO, as I've stated hundreds of times of dozens of forums.

I just made an observation on Jude, which notes the KJVO canon is as silly to me as picking only one translation.

 

[DHK]

Yes,wacko fringe groups at the extreme end of the KJVO movement.

Finally commonsense has prevailed.

Good. I agree completely. Don't be so quick to believe trash in the future.

I didn't. But I did give you a reliable quote from a secular source that said that Westcott was on the liberal side of theology. What I read didn't sound like it. But that is as far as I went. I never quoted a thing from the other sources that you falsely accused me of.

 

[Rippon]

I didn't.

Yes,you did believe the trash that Wescott was a Unitarian. Thankfully you have now repudiated that stance.

But I did give you a reliable quote from a secular source that said that Westcott was on the liberal side of theology.

And it wasn't the case he was liberal after all when you read his commentary on the Gospel of John.

What I read didn't sound like it. But that is as far as I went. I never quoted a thing from the other sources that you falsely accused me of.

I never said that you quoted from "the other sources". I was just cautioning you not to. I know you follow the views of Sorenson.

 

[DHK]

Yes,you did believe the trash that Wescott was a Unitarian. Thankfully you have now repudiated that stance.

Please quote me. Be accurate before you accuse. I said that the liberalism of that day, including Unitarianism was becoming rampant. It was very possible that they could have accepted some Unitarian doctrines. I stand by what I say. History doesn't lie. The spiritual condition of the Anglican church at that time in history wasn't all that great. History also records Westcott as being somewhat of a liberal as compared to his peers.

And it wasn't the case he was liberal after all when you read his commentary on the Gospel of John.

True enough. Have you ever read some of Clark Pinnock's earlier apologetic works? Have you read any of his later works? Do you know the difference?

I never said that you quoted from "the other sources". I was just cautioning you not to. I know you follow the views of Sorenson.

Do you know that Sorenson is not KJVO?

 

[Rippon]

Please quote me.

From post 109 :"Nazaroo may be right about them ascribing to Unitarianism." (July 1,2011)

Be accurate before you accuse.

I was being highly accurate.

History also records Westcott as being somewhat of a liberal as compared to his peers.

No,he was a conservative Anglican.Those were his peers. You have been reading his commentary on the Gospel of John and you still are pushing his supposed liberalism?

Have you ever read some of Clark Pinnock's earlier apologetic works? Have you read any of his later works? Do you know the difference?

I have read snatches here and there.In his earlier works he was a very concervative Calvinist. I remember John Gerstner saying that C.P. could have been the next B.B.Warfield. But then,he began sliding not just toward semi-Pelagianism --but outright Pelagianism, Open Theism and the works.

But what is your point DHK? Are you saying that Westcott started off liberal and then became conservative or vice-versa? He remained consistent in his theology.

I fail to see any connection with Westcott and Pinnock.

Do you know that Sorenson is not KJVO?

He's TR only and KJV only. We have had this discussion before. He's not as extreme as Ruckman but he's certainly KJVO. Look at his quotes from the men he admires --Cloud,Waite,Fuller,Wilkinson etc. That's the kind of company he keeps. (And yes,I know the last two are dead. It's a metaphoric language.)

Sorenson says that modern Bible versions come from apostate Greek texts.

D.H.S. says that :"One stream of Bibles has always been associated with belief and the other has largely been connected with apostasy." (Touch Not the Unclean Thing -p.44)

He says that "The charge that Erasmus was a Catholic was hollow." Ha,ha,ha!

David Sorenson is a grad of Pensacola Theological Seminary ! Doesn't that fact alone clue you in?

 

[Rippon]

Unblock your ears,put your specs on --listen and read. Please provide documentation which deals with Hort's alleged involvement with the occult. I don't want to put things in bold print --do you now understand with this third attempt of mine?

For crying out loud DHK --address this once and for all. You do specialize in ignoring the obvious.

DHK reminder. How long will you ignore my request?