Paul’s Response to the Thessalonians Tells us the Nature & Timing of the 2nd Coming

[Logos1]

2 Thess 2:1-4
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For [that day] will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God's sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God.

This is the familiar passage where the Thessalonians think the second coming has already taken place and Paul explains to them that it has not happened yet.

We see three things in Thessalonians. First is the nature of the Second Coming. Obviously the Thessalonians weren’t looking for a rapture type event since they didn’t say we thought Christians would disappear yet they didn’t. Also they weren’t surprised that the world didn’t come to an end or get destroyed by fire. Nor did they say every eye should have seen his return.

It is apparent that they believed the Second Coming was an event that you could be missed. They thought it was similar to the start of a new year. They don’t think of it as literal but, spiritual.

Then notice Paul response to them. He didn’t correct anything but the notion that he hadn’t come yet. He didn’t tell them you can’t miss it because every eye shall see him or the earth will be burned up and destroyed. They had the nature of his coming correct just the timing wrong.

Secondly, notice that Paul’s answer is consistent with the words of Christ that it would be “this generation” since he tells them in 1 Thess. 4: 15 we who are still alive at the Lord’s coming—he didn’t correct them about it not being in their generation, but indicates that some of them would still be alive.

Third, notice that 2 Thess 1: 6-7 says it is righteous for God to repay with affliction those those who afflict you…this will take place at the Lord’s revelation. This is a reference to an event that could only have been fulfilled by the judgment on the Jews in 70 AD.

So we see
1. The Second Coming is not literal, earth ending, nor involving a rapture, but Spiritual in nature.
2. Will happen to the generation the Thessalonians are in.
3. Will punish those who afflict the Christians—that is the Jews.

Only one thing could satisfy all three of these criteria that is events of 70 AD.

Any honest reading of Thessalonians would have to reach this honest conclusion. Some may deny this; however, deep in their hearts many of those probably know the truth here and just don’t want to outwardly admit it.

 

[revmwc]

2 Thess 2:1-4
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For [that day] will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God's sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God.

This is the familiar passage where the Thessalonians think the second coming has already taken place and Paul explains to them that it has not happened yet.

We see three things in Thessalonians. First is the nature of the Second Coming. Obviously the Thessalonians weren’t looking for a rapture type event since they didn’t say we thought Christians would disappear yet they didn’t. Also they weren’t surprised that the world didn’t come to an end or get destroyed by fire. Nor did they say every eye should have seen his return.

It is apparent that they believed the Second Coming was an event that you could be missed. They thought it was similar to the start of a new year. They don’t think of it as literal but, spiritual.

Then notice Paul response to them. He didn’t correct anything but the notion that he hadn’t come yet. He didn’t tell them you can’t miss it because every eye shall see him or the earth will be burned up and destroyed. They had the nature of his coming correct just the timing wrong.

Secondly, notice that Paul’s answer is consistent with the words of Christ that it would be “this generation” since he tells them in 1 Thess. 4: 15 we who are still alive at the Lord’s coming—he didn’t correct them about it not being in their generation, but indicates that some of them would still be alive.

Third, notice that 2 Thess 1: 6-7 says it is righteous for God to repay with affliction those those who afflict you…this will take place at the Lord’s revelation. This is a reference to an event that could only have been fulfilled by the judgment on the Jews in 70 AD.

So we see
1. The Second Coming is not literal, earth ending, nor involving a rapture, but Spiritual in nature.
2. Will happen to the generation the Thessalonians are in.
3. Will punish those who afflict the Christians—that is the Jews.

Only one thing could satisfy all three of these criteria that is events of 70 AD.

Any honest reading of Thessalonians would have to reach this honest conclusion. Some may deny this; however, deep in their hearts many of those probably know the truth here and just don’t want to outwardly admit it.

1.The second coming Paul says will not come until "except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

No where does it say Christ will not have an earthly kingdom, or that His second coming is spiritual.
We see a literal snatching away of the Church as Paul assured the Thesalonicans that if Christ came at that time they would:
a. Not prevent those already dead
b. They would meet them in the air.
Paul told them in 1 Thessaloninas 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
the church would be snatched away.

2. To come to the conclussion it the Thessalonicans would see the return we have to discard all of the book for the whole book would apply to them and no other church, yet most everyone preaches messages to the church, so it either all apllies to the believers today or none applies and we need to tear it out of the bible or at least call it invalid and preach nothing from it. So the "we" applies to us today as much as it did the thessalonicans.
1 thssalonians 4: 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Verse 13 tells us who the "we" is that follows Paul says "I would not have you to be ignorant brethern" Are we not brethern of them and each other. So that verse 13 qualifies the "we" as brethren.

3. Will he will
2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Take vengence on those who don't know God who obey not the gospel of the Lord and that obey not the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Who He will punish in everlasting punishment, that sounds to me like all unbelievers not just the Jews.

Looks like you have twisted things to match your beliefs when scripture shows just the opposite of what you say. Sorry you come up with incorrect conclussions because you fail to see what God's word shows. You interpret it to fit your beliefs by saying that rthe "we" is only the Thessalonican believers but Paul made that statement to the Brethren and I believe that is us.

 

[Logos1]

Joke response, LOL

revmwc,

who are you kidding you didn't even make an honest attempt at responding to this you just cut and pasted some verses here--your argument is with Paul and the Holy Spirit not with me.

If this is your best response--let me welcome you over to full preterism since you obviously don't have an answer to it.

 

[HankD]

2 Thess 2:1-4
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For [that day] will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God's sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God.

This is the familiar passage where the Thessalonians think the second coming has already taken place and Paul explains to them that it has not happened yet.

We see three things in Thessalonians. First is the nature of the Second Coming. Obviously the Thessalonians weren’t looking for a rapture type event since they didn’t say we thought Christians would disappear yet they didn’t. Also they weren’t surprised that the world didn’t come to an end or get destroyed by fire. Nor did they say every eye should have seen his return.

It is apparent that they believed the Second Coming was an event that you could be missed. They thought it was similar to the start of a new year. They don’t think of it as literal but, spiritual.

Then notice Paul response to them. He didn’t correct anything but the notion that he hadn’t come yet. He didn’t tell them you can’t miss it because every eye shall see him or the earth will be burned up and destroyed. They had the nature of his coming correct just the timing wrong.

Secondly, notice that Paul’s answer is consistent with the words of Christ that it would be “this generation” since he tells them in 1 Thess. 4: 15 we who are still alive at the Lord’s coming—he didn’t correct them about it not being in their generation, but indicates that some of them would still be alive.

Third, notice that 2 Thess 1: 6-7 says it is righteous for God to repay with affliction those those who afflict you…this will take place at the Lord’s revelation. This is a reference to an event that could only have been fulfilled by the judgment on the Jews in 70 AD.

So we see
1. The Second Coming is not literal, earth ending, nor involving a rapture, but Spiritual in nature.
2. Will happen to the generation the Thessalonians are in.
3. Will punish those who afflict the Christians—that is the Jews.

Only one thing could satisfy all three of these criteria that is events of 70 AD.

Any honest reading of Thessalonians would have to reach this honest conclusion. Some may deny this; however, deep in their hearts many of those probably know the truth here and just don’t want to outwardly admit it.

In the dispensational view, the Second Coming is technically a seven year event which first includes the Rapture (the removal of believers from the earth), followed by the Tribulation/Great Tribulation (seven years of Jacob's Trouble) and concluding with the visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ to the earth to rule and reign for 1000 years..

Some also include the millenium and call the whole epic "The Day of the Lord" (JV McGee).

The literal events which you point to are during the Tribulation/Great tribulation and are encapsulated in verses 3 and 4 and then further elucidated in verses 8 and 9:

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.​

The "Temple of God" shall first be occupied by the "man of sin, the son of perdition" (presumably the antichrist). This happens after the "rapture - harpazo - snatching away - the removal of believers from the earth" during the Tribulation but before the visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ (a.k.a. the Second Coming) seven years later.​

The rapture (harpazo) has no time marker and can happen at any time, the Second Coming (the visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ) does have a specific time marker - seven years after the harpazo.​

The Thessalonians had confounded the events of the Rapture (removal of believers from the earth), the Tribulation and the Second Coming (The visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ to the earth).​

Paul reminds them that there has not been an apostacy with the Antichrist having been revealed and taking up residence in the Temple of God claiming to be God - an event of the Tribulation.​

Therefore there has been neither the rapture or the tribulation and therefore there could not have been a Second Coming of Christ to the earth.​

Many/most dispensationalist point to verse 7 below as an indication of when the Rapture will have taken place (only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way) with "signs" (visible and reportable things) to follow in verses 8 and 9.​

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.​

These satanic signs and wonders had yet to be seen on earth as is the same condition today, therefore we, like the Thessalonians, are still waiting, although they mistakenly believed the second coming had already taken place.​

The Thessalonians had confounded the elements of the Rapture, the Tribulation and the Visible and Bodily return of Jesus Christ to the earth to rule and reign.​

HankD​

 

[JesusFan]

2 Thess 2:1-4
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For [that day] will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God's sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God.

This is the familiar passage where the Thessalonians think the second coming has already taken place and Paul explains to them that it has not happened yet.

We see three things in Thessalonians. First is the nature of the Second Coming. Obviously the Thessalonians weren’t looking for a rapture type event since they didn’t say we thought Christians would disappear yet they didn’t. Also they weren’t surprised that the world didn’t come to an end or get destroyed by fire. Nor did they say every eye should have seen his return.

It is apparent that they believed the Second Coming was an event that you could be missed. They thought it was similar to the start of a new year. They don’t think of it as literal but, spiritual.

Then notice Paul response to them. He didn’t correct anything but the notion that he hadn’t come yet. He didn’t tell them you can’t miss it because every eye shall see him or the earth will be burned up and destroyed. They had the nature of his coming correct just the timing wrong.

Secondly, notice that Paul’s answer is consistent with the words of Christ that it would be “this generation” since he tells them in 1 Thess. 4: 15 we who are still alive at the Lord’s coming—he didn’t correct them about it not being in their generation, but indicates that some of them would still be alive.

Third, notice that 2 Thess 1: 6-7 says it is righteous for God to repay with affliction those those who afflict you…this will take place at the Lord’s revelation. This is a reference to an event that could only have been fulfilled by the judgment on the Jews in 70 AD.

So we see
1. The Second Coming is not literal, earth ending, nor involving a rapture, but Spiritual in nature.
2. Will happen to the generation the Thessalonians are in.
3. Will punish those who afflict the Christians—that is the Jews.

Only one thing could satisfy all three of these criteria that is events of 70 AD.

Any honest reading of Thessalonians would have to reach this honest conclusion. Some may deny this; however, deep in their hearts many of those probably know the truth here and just don’t want to outwardly admit it.

Actually, they were asking if the pretierist in their midst wewre correct, that the Lord had "spiritually" already returned and they missed His second coming...

paul assured them jesus had not returned yet, as when he does, there will be an event called the "Rapture/snatching away" that would mean that graves would be emptied and that those alivewill become as superman, and fly away!

 

[revmwc]

revmwc,

who are you kidding you didn't even make an honest attempt at responding to this you just cut and pasted some verses here--your argument is with Paul and the Holy Spirit not with me.

If this is your best response--let me welcome you over to full preterism since you obviously don't have an answer to it.

Well I can go into long response and give you sorts of testual proofs but since I was pressed for time I gave you the short version.
No Paul made quite clear who he was talking to in verse 13 he said and maybe you can heed the verse I would not have ye to be IGNORANT BRETHERN catch the word in bold there it qualifies the "WE" in verse 15 in the "WE" who are alive and remain. Who is the "WE" it is the brethren.
If you take the next verse he says "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again" would this also be just the Thessalonican believers or encompass ALL believers of this time?
Basically the qualifier in this passage is in verse 13 so you must take the balance of what is said as Brethern to which we in this day apply to that statement.


Looking at 2 Thessalonians 1:1-4 Paul says don't be rtroubled when people tell you the day of the Lord IS AT HAND (v2). When will it come Paul makes it very clear in V3, " for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first" ssems more like our day than theirs. People weren't falling away the church was being added to even in 70 A.D. That qualifiers misses your view the church had not seen a falling away. This would qualify for the church being snatched away and then Paul goes further with (v3) "man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" the beast must be reveled as John talks about. Now we see where Israel must have the temple rebuilt, Paul knew Christ prophecy that it would be destroyed yet he says here (v4) 4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." Here in Paul shows us the abomination of that maketh Desolate that Daniel talked and and Jesus said must come to be before the end, the Image of the Beast must be sitting in the Temple, very revealing verse isn't it. This did not happen in 70 A.D. yet you want to continue to claim it did.
Paul tells them in verse 5 that he told them thse things before, you stated "It is apparent that they believed the Second Coming was an event that you could be missed. They thought it was similar to the start of a new year. They don’t think of it as literal but, spiritual." They were looking for the snatching away of the church that would be the "Spiritual" coming you are expecting, but Pauls tells them remember wht I told you when I was there "with you."
Which shows your statementy "He didn’t correct anything but the notion that he hadn’t come yet" to be incorrect again, he did correct them he said remeber "I told you all these things" sounds a bit like he was correcting what they were hearing.
Verse 6 says virtually in the appointed time he will be revealed but (v7) not until the one that witholds is removed that would be the Holy Spirit, and yet we say the Holy Spirit is very present in us today, so again unless the Holy Spirit was removed in 70 A.D. then Christ has yet to return, Paul and the Holy Spirit say this in verse 7 of 1 Thessalonians chapter 2. Again Paul is consistent with Christ statement this generation the generation that sees these events will not pass away, we could be that generation.

Now to chapter 1 as you jumped to nowhere does it even remotely imply that as you state "Will punish those who afflict the Christians—that is the Jews" but the Romans were afflicting them too. Paul says "God would recompense tribualtion to them that trouble you this fits what Paul says in Romans 12:19 "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." God would repay in His time not ours. Paul says Christ will come in His second coming with messengers with Him, and in a flaming fire of vengence, John says in revelation 19 that a sharp sword would go out of Christ mouth against those who stood in opposition to Him when He returned.

None of this satifies the requirements of a 70 A.D. return especially since the armies gathered with the beast were not put down and no image of the beast was sitting in the temple.

This bolsters the pre-trib pre-mil view even more thanks for posting it.

 

[Logos1]

As Christ said in Matt 24:34 all these things will be fulfilled in this generation

In the dispensational view, the Second Coming is technically a seven year event which first includes the Rapture (the removal of believers from the earth), followed by the Tribulation/Great Tribulation (seven years of Jacob's Trouble) and concluding with the visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ to the earth to rule and reign for 1000 years..

Some also include the millenium and call the whole epic "The Day of the Lord" (JV McGee).

The literal events which you point to are during the Tribulation/Great tribulation and are encapsulated in verses 3 and 4 and then further elucidated in verses 8 and 9:

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.​

The "Temple of God" shall first be occupied by the "man of sin, the son of perdition" (presumably the antichrist). This happens after the "rapture - harpazo - snatching away - the removal of believers from the earth" during the Tribulation but before the visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ (a.k.a. the Second Coming) seven years later.​

The rapture (harpazo) has no time marker and can happen at any time, the Second Coming (the visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ) does have a specific time marker - seven years after the harpazo.​

The Thessalonians had confounded the events of the Rapture (removal of believers from the earth), the Tribulation and the Second Coming (The visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ to the earth).​

Paul reminds them that there has not been an apostacy with the Antichrist having been revealed and taking up residence in the Temple of God claiming to be God - an event of the Tribulation.​

Therefore there has been neither the rapture or the tribulation and therefore there could not have been a Second Coming of Christ to the earth.​

Many/most dispensationalist point to verse 7 below as an indication of when the Rapture will have taken place (only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way) with "signs" (visible and reportable things) to follow in verses 8 and 9.​

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.​

These satanic signs and wonders had yet to be seen on earth as is the same condition today, therefore we, like the Thessalonians, are still waiting, although they mistakenly believed the second coming had already taken place.​

The Thessalonians had confounded the elements of the Rapture, the Tribulation and the Visible and Bodily return of Jesus Christ to the earth to rule and reign.​

HankD​

Hello Hank,

Being a long time dispensationalist myself I figure I have earned the right to criticize it as much as anybody has.

Myself I think the Thessalonians’ remarks by Paul are devastating to dispensationalism.

There a lot of interpretations of dispensationalism so I want debate what comes when—and since I think it is not a legitimate interpretation of the bible it would be pointless for me to nit pick details anyway.

As to the rapture—when I was a dispensationalist I saw it in the bible because I wanted to believe in it, but now I can’t find a single verse that I think even a remotely honest reading would suggest supports a rapture event is taught.

As far as the falling away is concerned the NT is full of evidence that proves that already has taken place. Any reading of Hebrews, of the books of John (all those references to the antichrist for example denying the nature of Christ), and of Peter for example have to be ripped out of the bible for a great falling away not to have taken place.

The best explanation of the man of sin that I have heard is that he was the Zealot leader John of Gischala who slew the high priest Ananus (who was holding him back). He could have easily fulfilled the proclaiming himself God in the temple.

On a side note—the many proclaiming to be the messiah were found in Jerusalem. Most people don’t see them because they don’t know what to look for they think they should be looking for a religious leader when in fact people of that day were looking for a military messiah. There were plenty of zealots who gave them the messiah they were looking for. In fact many scholars of all persuasions believe Judas turned on Jesus when he realized Jesus was not going to be the military leader he wanted.

As far as the tribulation goes all you have to do is read the history of that period leading up to the conclusion of 70 AD about the fighting across Palestine, the multiple slaughters of Jews in various places, the torture, disembowelment, crucifixions, the cannibalism, etc., to realize that it easily fits the definition of the Great Tribulation. In fact Revelation tells us the Tribulation was going on even as the book was being written when John (John Mark probably not St. John) says he is their brother in tribulation. Rev 1:9

Also note how many times Paul corrected wrong thinking in his letters when someone misunderstood some part of Christ’s teaching. The fact that he only corrected the Thessalonians about the timing of Christ’s return indicates they got everything else right and that indeed you could miss His return and that it was not earth destroying, nor involving a rapture, nor in any time period beyond their generation.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Logos

 

[Logos1]

Jesusfan obviously no response is needed to your reply--but I think the tone of your response reflects the general tone of futurism in general. In that sense it conveyed some truth even though it was written in jest. Interesting how these things reflect the inherit truth within even when they are not intended to.

Rev--I'll get to your post when i have time.

 

[HankD]

Hello Hank,

Being a long time dispensationalist myself I figure I have earned the right to criticize it as much as anybody has.

Myself I think the Thessalonians’ remarks by Paul are devastating to dispensationalism.

...

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Logos

Yes, of course you would think that way and I don't fault you your views in this matter.

Personally I am fascinated in the diversity of views in this realm, especially since the debates are far less likely to turn into contention, though it does happen.

Just one rebuttal of one remark you made:

As far as the tribulation goes all you have to do is read the history of that period leading up to the conclusion of 70 AD about the fighting across Palestine, the multiple slaughters of Jews in various places, the torture, disembowelment, crucifixions, the cannibalism, etc., to realize that it easily fits the definition of the Great Tribulation. In fact Revelation tells us the Tribulation was going on even as the book was being written when John (John Mark probably not St. John) says he is their brother in tribulation. Rev 1:9

There is "tribulation" to one degree or another on a personal, collective or global venue which all believers of every age have endured, but there is only one "Great Tribulation".

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
​

Most modernly I would cite WWII where the entire globe was involved wherein 20 million jews were murdered, starved, tortured, etc, in exceedingly cruel ways along with millions of other atrocities foisted upon humanity with a sum total of about 70 million human beings killed in about 5 years.

The power of the sun was isolated and unleashed upon the earth (fission and fusion) resulting in a quarter million people being incinerated with two atomic bombings over a period of 3 days.

Surely this trumps the AD70 event.

HankD

 

[revmwc]

Yes, of course you would think that way and I don't fault you your views in this matter.

Personally I am fascinated in the diversity of views in this realm, especially since the debates are far less likely to turn into contention, though it does happen.

Just one rebuttal of one remark you made:



There is "tribulation" to one degree or another on a personal, collective or global venue which all believers of every age have endured, but there is only one "Great Tribulation".

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
​

Most modernly I would cite WWII where the entire globe was involved wherein 20 million jews were murdered, starved, tortured, etc, in exceedingly cruel ways along with millions of other atrocities foisted upon humanity with a sum total of about 70 million human beings killed in about 5 years.

The power of the sun was isolated and unleashed upon the earth (fission and fusion) resulting in a quarter million people being incinerated with two atomic bombings over a period of 3 days.

Surely this trumps the AD70 event.

HankD

Yet the Great Tribulation will be worse than that. Hard to believe anything could be worse but God says it will according to the book of Revelation.

 

[HankD]

Yet the Great Tribulation will be worse than that. Hard to believe anything could be worse but God says it will according to the book of Revelation.

Yes, agreed. My point is that the AD70 event was not what Jesus meant by the coming "tribulation" of which there would be no greater EVER.

Because the violence of WWII far exceeded the events surrounding the sack of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple in AD70 it thereby disqualifies AD70 as the great tribulation.

But the great Tribulation will eclipse WWII and shake the earth, be accompanied by astronomical and terrestrial upheavels with perhaps upwards of 1/3 or more of the population destoyed.

HankD

 

[thomas15]

2 Thess 2:1-4...

A fair reading of the above passage (or for that matter the entire chapter) is no friend to preterism but don't let the Word get in the way of your theology. A Big Thank You for the low cost entertainment.

 

[Logos1]

Preterists Own the Time Statements of the New Testament

Revmwc

Well I guess it comes as no surprise to you that I’m not able to buy what you are trying to sell here.

Preterists own all the time statements of the new testament. All of the time statements of the new testament are along the lines of this generation, at hand, soon, coming quickly, etc. Every last single statement with any element of time in it indicates Christ is coming soon.

Not a single verse any where in the N.T. indicates Christ’s return is some future generation, far off, thousands of years in the future. You have twist, mangle, and torture the language in every instance to try and get a far off future fulfillment out of them.

Any person reading this straight up with out an agenda would not come to the conclusion that Christ would come back thousands of years later.

I don’t think I need to add anything to this fact—it speaks for itself loud and clear.

 

[Logos1]

Actually the great tribulation was fulfilled in the events leading up to 70 Ad. The sad fact is we have too many people who don’t know how to read the bible.

You are of course referring to Matthew 24:21 which says

For at that time there will be great tribulation, the kind that hasn't taken place from the beginning of the world until now and never will again!

This should be read in the same manner as the verses on circumcision. The OT tells Jews to do it forever and the NT tells them it is now worthless.

Genesis 9:17

9Abraham, you and all future members of your family must promise to obey me. 10-11As the sign that you are keeping this promise, you must circumcise every man and boy in your family. 12-13From now on, your family must circumcise every baby boy when he is eight days old. You must even circumcise any man or boy you have as a slave, both those born in your homes and those you buy from foreigners. This will be a sign that my promise to you will last forever. 14Any man who isn't circumcised hasn't kept his promise to me and cannot be one of my people.

Paul states in the NT that it longer makes any difference.

1 Corinthians 7:19
For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.

The verses about the tribulation are part of the message of the destruction of the temple 70 AD and end of the Jewish age, world, covenant.
The forever is not forever as in end of time, but until the end of the Jewish age/covenant.

 

[Logos1]

A fair reading of the above passage (or for that matter the entire chapter) is no friend to preterism but don't let the Word get in the way of your theology. A Big Thank You for the low cost entertainment.

My pleasure thomas. And even though you can't allow yourself to publicly own up to it I think deep down you really have an affinity for preterism or else you wouldn't enjoy reading our posts so often.

Come back anytime read, learn, and enjoy--you could do worse things with your time.

:thumbs:

 

[thomas15]

Come back anytime read, learn, and enjoy--you could do worse things with your time.

:thumbs:

Yes and no doubt since you have such a fantastic grip on truth and reality compared to most of today's youth I'm predicting that you're going to pursue some post secondary school education/seminary training in the reformed tradition? Have any kind of summer employment lined up or will you limit your vacation to posting on the internet?

 

[revmwc]

Revmwc

Well I guess it comes as no surprise to you that I’m not able to buy what you are trying to sell here.

Preterists own all the time statements of the new testament. All of the time statements of the new testament are along the lines of this generation, at hand, soon, coming quickly, etc. Every last single statement with any element of time in it indicates Christ is coming soon.

Not a single verse any where in the N.T. indicates Christ’s return is some future generation, far off, thousands of years in the future. You have twist, mangle, and torture the language in every instance to try and get a far off future fulfillment out of them.

Any person reading this straight up with out an agenda would not come to the conclusion that Christ would come back thousands of years later.

I don’t think I need to add anything to this fact—it speaks for itself loud and clear.

I see now why you can't see scripture without seeing in your own view you state "Preterists own all the time statements of the new testament" that tells everyone where you stand. You think you own scripture but Paul said, 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Sounds a little bit to me like God owns scripture and 1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The Holy Spirit reveals His word to us by comparing spiritual with spiritaul, that would be the Holy Spirit guiding us from verse to verse to pull together scripture upon scripture to show how it is meant.
God owns time, when it was needed God rolled back time for Israel to win the battle, when Hezekiah was promised that he would live and have time added to his life God rolled back the sun.

Paul told the Thessalonicans in his first epistle chapter 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

He said you know perfectly the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. Notice what else he said, "3...when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

Seems as if the world will say they have a time of Peace and Safety, that definitely is not 70 A.D. then sudden destruction shall come, they (the unbelievers of the world) will not escape, but we (believers of this age) will not be overtaken by the time of sudden destruction, sounds like we just might be snatched out like Paul had told them in chapter 4 verses 16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Again and again God reveals that He owns time not man and not the preterist as you say. God tells us He is Longsuffering, He tells us one day to Him as a Thousand years and a Thousand years as one day, seems clear God's concept of time and man's are not the same. When God says quickly or shortly it is based on HIS concept of TIME not man's and not the preterist, God owns time no mankind and certaily not the preterist.

2 Peter 3: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

 

[lastday]

Day of God's Wrath follows the Last Martyr

In the dispensational view, the Second Coming is technically a seven year event which first includes the Rapture (the removal of believers from the earth), followed by the Tribulation/Great Tribulation (seven years of Jacob's Trouble) and concluding with the visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ to the earth to rule and reign for 1000 years..

Some also include the millenium and call the whole epic "The Day of the Lord" (JV McGee).

The literal events which you point to are during the Tribulation/Great tribulation and are encapsulated in verses 3 and 4 and then further elucidated in verses 8 and 9:

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.​

The "Temple of God" shall first be occupied by the "man of sin, the son of perdition" (presumably the antichrist). This happens after the "rapture - harpazo - snatching away - the removal of believers from the earth" during the Tribulation but before the visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ (a.k.a. the Second Coming) seven years later.​

The rapture (harpazo) has no time marker and can happen at any time, the Second Coming (the visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ) does have a specific time marker - seven years after the harpazo.​

The Thessalonians had confounded the events of the Rapture (removal of believers from the earth), the Tribulation and the Second Coming (The visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ to the earth).​

Paul reminds them that there has not been an apostacy with the Antichrist having been revealed and taking up residence in the Temple of God claiming to be God - an event of the Tribulation.​

Therefore there has been neither the rapture or the tribulation and therefore there could not have been a Second Coming of Christ to the earth.​

Many/most dispensationalist point to verse 7 below as an indication of when the Rapture will have taken place (only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way) with "signs" (visible and reportable things) to follow in verses 8 and 9.​

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.​

These satanic signs and wonders had yet to be seen on earth as is the same condition today, therefore we, like the Thessalonians, are still waiting, although they mistakenly believed the second coming had already taken place.​

The Thessalonians had confounded the elements of the Rapture, the Tribulation and the Visible and Bodily return of Jesus Christ to the earth to rule and reign.​

HankD​

Dear Hank,
Together, you and I spent a lot of time disputing the error of Logos1 that Christ has already returned; but not in a literal, physical, glorified human
body.

But now we cannot join in disputing his error that Christ returned in 70 AD because you do not acknowledge that THE DAY OF WRATH MUST OCCUR
ON THE LAST DAY AFTER THE LAST BELIEVER "WHO MUST BE KILLED HAS BEEN KILLED"! Rev.6:9-11.

In your view of Dispensationalism, the Second Coming includes the Great
Tribulation of "time, times and half a time" which must be completed before
anyone can be "raised up on the Last Day" to fulfill John 6:38-40!!

"In the dispensational view, the Second Coming is technically a seven year event which first includes the Rapture (the removal of believers from the earth), followed by the Tribulation/Great Tribulation (seven years of Jacob's Trouble) and concluding with the visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ to the earth to rule and reign for 1000 years.."

Pre-Mil Dispensationalism requires the "gathering of the elect from earth" to
the atmosphere in heaven in which both ALL the "dead in Christ and all in the Church who survive to the end of the age" (Rev.2:25-26) may be "caught up on the four winds and together, in a moment of time, meet our glorified Savior in the air...after the great tribulation...when He comes ON THAT DAY to be glorified in the saints and to be marveled at by ALL who believe"!!! Mark 13:24-27; Matt.24:29-31; I Thes.3:13; I Thes.4:13-17; 2 Thes.1:1-10.

The error of Logos1 is the outright denial that "the testimony of the
Thessalonians that is still believed" by US today also applies to the END of the Age. 2 Thes.1:10.
Mel
www.lastday.net

 

[HankD]

Dear Hank,
Together, you and I spent a lot of time disputing the error of Logos1 that Christ has already returned; but not in a literal, physical, glorified human
body.

But now we cannot join in disputing his error that Christ returned in 70 AD because you do not acknowledge that THE DAY OF WRATH MUST OCCUR
ON THE LAST DAY AFTER THE LAST BELIEVER "WHO MUST BE KILLED HAS BEEN KILLED"! Rev.6:9-11.

In your view of Dispensationalism, the Second Coming includes the Great
Tribulation of "time, times and half a time" which must be completed before
anyone can be "raised up on the Last Day" to fulfill John 6:38-40!!

"In the dispensational view, the Second Coming is technically a seven year event which first includes the Rapture (the removal of believers from the earth), followed by the Tribulation/Great Tribulation (seven years of Jacob's Trouble) and concluding with the visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ to the earth to rule and reign for 1000 years.."

Pre-Mil Dispensationalism requires the "gathering of the elect from earth" tothe atmosphere in heaven in which both ALL the "dead in Christ and all in the Church who survive to the end of the age" (Rev.2:25-26) may be "caught up on the four winds and together, in a moment of time, meet our glorified Savior in the air...after the great tribulation...when He comes ON THAT DAY to be glorified in the saints and to be marveled at by ALL who believe"!!! Mark 13:24-27; Matt.24:29-31; I Thes.3:13; I Thes.4:13-17; 2 Thes.1:1-10.

The error of Logos1 is the outright denial that "the testimony of the
Thessalonians that is still believed" by US today also applies to the END of the Age. 2 Thes.1:10.
Mel
www.lastday.net

I am in agreement with you Mel.
Its just that I am not as skilled as you are in putting all the pieces together in a coherent way.

My quote was poorly worded on my part and it is a little confusing at the minute detail level.

I know that there will be a one day "day of wrath" and that it happens after Rev 6:9:

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain (past tense) for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:​

Then comes the day of wrath in verse 6:17​

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?​

By the way, are these these two verses (Rev 6:17 and Rev 18:10) pointing to that same "day of wrath"?​

Revelation 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.​

If so, where does the Book of Revelation reflex backwards in time and repeat the account of events?

HankD​

 

[revmwc]

Dear Hank,
Together, you and I spent a lot of time disputing the error of Logos1 that Christ has already returned; but not in a literal, physical, glorified human
body.

But now we cannot join in disputing his error that Christ returned in 70 AD because you do not acknowledge that THE DAY OF WRATH MUST OCCUR
ON THE LAST DAY AFTER THE LAST BELIEVER "WHO MUST BE KILLED HAS BEEN KILLED"! Rev.6:9-11.

In your view of Dispensationalism, the Second Coming includes the Great
Tribulation of "time, times and half a time" which must be completed before
anyone can be "raised up on the Last Day" to fulfill John 6:38-40!!

"In the dispensational view, the Second Coming is technically a seven year event which first includes the Rapture (the removal of believers from the earth), followed by the Tribulation/Great Tribulation (seven years of Jacob's Trouble) and concluding with the visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ to the earth to rule and reign for 1000 years.."

Pre-Mil Dispensationalism requires the "gathering of the elect from earth" to
the atmosphere in heaven in which both ALL the "dead in Christ and all in the Church who survive to the end of the age" (Rev.2:25-26) may be "caught up on the four winds and together, in a moment of time, meet our glorified Savior in the air...after the great tribulation...when He comes ON THAT DAY to be glorified in the saints and to be marveled at by ALL who believe"!!! Mark 13:24-27; Matt.24:29-31; I Thes.3:13; I Thes.4:13-17; 2 Thes.1:1-10.

The error of Logos1 is the outright denial that "the testimony of the
Thessalonians that is still believed" by US today also applies to the END of the Age. 2 Thes.1:10.
Mel
www.lastday.net

Not exactly clear where you get the Pre-Mil dispensational view. The Church is gathered out Pre-Tribulation those who have died in the church age and those who are living at the time of His coming in the air to meet his bride the church.

We see a type of that in Isaac and Rebecca in that Issac meets her in the field and they turn and go into his mother the tent toghether, Issac is type of Christ and Rebecca a type of the church and they dwell together.

Upon the church being snatched away and the Tribulation begining. The saints in Revlation 6:9 -11 are Tribulation Saints and they must await their fellow Tribulation brethren being killed before they are avenged. Once the 7 year period is complete and Christ returns they will be avenged, and rule with Him in the millenial kingdom.