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Paul’s Response to the Thessalonians Tells us the Nature & Timing of the 2nd Coming

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Logos1, Jun 25, 2011.

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  1. Logos1

    Logos1 New Member

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    Dispensationalism is a very entertaining and fanciful view of eschatology. I'm glad I got to live while it was having a good run. It is always fun to hear a preacher get wrapped up in rapture views, and the antichrist dominating the world, and the battle of armageddon, and so fourth and so on. These views fall quickly when exposed to the light of scripture. They make nice escapism though.
     
    #101 Logos1, Jul 16, 2011
  2. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Well I had never heard of the Preterist view till came on this board, that would mean it is just developing to fulfill scripture.
    2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
    4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
    5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

    That we would have those in the end of the age who would scoff at His return. That is definitely happening with Preterist.
     
    #102 revmwc, Jul 16, 2011
  3. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Logos1, Just a reminder, I don't have a problem with your preference of the preterist view.
    You have, as is evident, thought it out and used whatever thought processes you felt comfortable with to smooth out the rough places.

    Having said that...

    Since you and others insist on a tight boundary of the definition of "shortly", "quickly", etc... I would also like to point out that over and over again the usage of "forever" in the promises to God for Israel should get the same consideration on you part as to mean "forever".

    Or as in the Zephaniah prohecy he uses the terms "no more" as to the ceasing of the suffering and war againt the nation of Israel and that they would live in peace forever.

    Also, the existence of the nation of Israel does not depend on the mosaic covenant but His promises to that Nation whether they keep the mosaic covenant or not His promises stand forever.

    HankD
     
    #103 HankD, Jul 16, 2011
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    It is well known that the ECF believed in Chiliasm. I would think that dispensationalism is a natural outgrowth of that coupled with Paul's teaching being under the law and no longer under the law.
     
    #104 DHK, Jul 16, 2011
  5. Logos1

    Logos1 New Member

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    Hank,

    I’m sure we agree on most subjects other than eschatology.

    On forever—you need to read that in the context it was given in the bible and not use it the way most people use it today.

    Remember Genesis 17:10 said to observe circumcision forever. Then Paul said in Galation 5:6 circumcision is irrelevant in Christ. So what gives—does the bible contradict itself—of course not. You just need a little context.

    Forever in this context means until the end of the Old Covenant. That is the simple and accurate way to read and understand the term.

    You are trying to force the word forever to mean without end and that is not the only way we use it even today. How many times do you hear someone say “I got stuck in traffic forever” or “It took forever at the Dr.’s Office today.” Do think either of these means the person is still in traffic or the Dr.’s office—no you don’t because you understand it is the correct way to use the term in the context. Read the bible and use the proper context and you can see that forever in regards to the Jews only means till the end of the old covenant and there is no scripture left to be fulfilled in regard to them today. Christ said all things written would be fulfilled at the time of Jerusalem’s destruction Luke 21:20-22.

    Notice when Christ said that heaven and earth would pass away before the law would could pass or end. Obviously the cosmos haven't been destroyed so the term heaven and earth refers to the Jewish temple, law, and its ordering of their society.

    Matt: 5:17-18

    17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

    Hank, I’m sure you know the Mosaic law has passed away. I think if you follow the words of Christ to their only honest conclusion then it is pretty evident that all prophecy concerning Israel is already fulfilled.
     
    #105 Logos1, Jul 16, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 16, 2011
  6. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    I'm sure as well on the essentials.

    This is the point I have been trying to make. Sometimes a word can have an addendum to it's meaning such as "quickly" especially to our eternal father.

    That is an assumtion on your part. Mine is that the cosmos will come to an end.

    Yes of course, as reborn children of God you and I are not under the law but walk by faith following the Spirit in obedience to His leading during our pilgrimage here on earth.

    Don't forget the Abrahamic Covenant was made before the law and the law was added because of transgressions.
    Israel is Jacob's new name after his new birth.
    Israel and the eternal covenant promise preceeded the Law.
    The old mosaic covenant passed away but the eternal promises remain to Israel and the gentiles though the gentiles are distinct from Israel.

    Genesis 18
    17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
    18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations (Goyim) of the earth shall be blessed in him?​

    Galatians 3
    16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
    17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
    18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.​
    19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made.

    Israel will be restored:

    Romans 11
    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.​

    Redeemed Israel is distinct from the church into the eternal state.

    Revelation 21
    10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
    11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
    12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
    13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
    14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.​


    HankD​
     
    #106 HankD, Jul 17, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2011
  7. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Dispensationalism is fanciful and entertaining?

    This is what is fanciful and entertaining; That the Heavens and Earth passing away means the Temple and Law and Society. :laugh:

    Now that's fanciful and foolishness. Some have these little "secret inside scoops" on eschatology, and rely upon Josephus as an extra-biblical proof.

    And we have no more need of the Sun either, right? And this is the Millenial reign, no? Jesus reigning victorious over the nations, but invisibly, correct?

    Not even close.

    Talk about being fantastical.

    And the sun revolves around the earth, correct?

    He came to the Earth literally, and physically present at His first coming, so too His final reign.
     
    #107 preacher4truth, Jul 17, 2011
  8. Logos1

    Logos1 New Member

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    Yes Hank we agree on the essentials. Wouldn’t be boring if we all agreed on everything.

    Think about the implications of what you are assuming in that the cosmos will pass away and that doesn’t refer to the temple and Jewish society ordered around the Old Covenant—that would mean the Mosaic Law is still in affect today and we can’t rely on Christ for salvation.

    The Abrahamic Covenant does not refer to the DNA descendents of Abraham—the children of the promise are the Christians—his spiritual descends this is pointed out word for word (Romans 9:8) Paul specifically in no uncertain terms says it is not the physical but the spiritual descendants that are the fulfillment of the promise.

    Romans 9: 7 Not all of Abraham’s children are called Abraham’s descendants, but instead your descendants will be named through Isaac. 8 That means it isn’t the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children from the promise who are counted as descendants.

    And, unless Paul lied or didn’t know what he was talking about you can’t say there is any distinction between Jews and Gentiles now in God’s eyes.

    Romans 10:12 There is no distinction between Jew and Greek, because the same Lord is Lord of all…

    Ephesians 3:6
    This plan is that the Gentiles would be coheirs and parts of the same body, and that they would share with the Jews in the promises of God in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

    This was the mystery that Paul often spoke of.

    Forever in the old testament only gets you to the end of the Old Covenant and then these promises are counted as fulfilled and done with.

    Galations 3: 19 And in your own verse Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made.

    You can see here the law was never intended to go past the time of Christ.

    Revelations 21 you point to in Regards to Jerusalem is just a symbolic retelling of the temple description given towards the end of Ezekiel.

    Bottom line it describes the fact that Christ indwells us now. It is just being given in symbolic language that the crowd listening to the letter being read can envision it and relate to it. Remember most people don’t read in that day and someone will read the letter in a group setting. The images are like movies playing in the mind of the audience.
     
    #108 Logos1, Jul 18, 2011
  9. Logos1

    Logos1 New Member

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    Maestro may we have the theme music to "The Obsession"

    LOL.

    The fact that you would follow me over here on a thread that you haven’t touched in 11 pages just to do a hatchet post only proves I’m living rent free in your mind and you are obsessing on me preacher.

    Not even trying and I'm what you are dwelling on.

    I suppose the Christian thing to do would be to say something that might sooth the savage beast within you before you blow a gasket or have a brain aneurysm, but you would no doubt rebuke that also so I'll save myself the time and just continue to stew in your subconsciousness.

    I own you preacher--have a nice day in between--thoughts of me!

    :wavey:
     
    #109 Logos1, Jul 18, 2011
  10. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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    Not necessary. We all basically understand that you are just a kid trying to act all grown-up.
     
    #110 thomas15, Jul 18, 2011
  11. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Without going into the details again, we are agreed as to the facts concerning the law but in disagreement as to the promises of the mighty nation that God promised Abraham.

    Gnesis 18
    17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
    18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?​

    The promise to Abraham did not depend upon the law. It was added to show the sinfulness of sin that every mouth (including Gentile mouths) would be shut.​

    Israel shall not perish.​

    2 Samuel 7:24 For thou hast confirmed to thyself thy people Israel to be a people unto thee for ever: and thou, LORD, art become their God.​

    1 Kings 10:9 Blessed be the LORD thy God, which delighted in thee, to set thee on the throne of Israel: because the LORD loved Israel for ever, therefore made he thee king, to do judgment and justice.​

    1 Chronicles 29:10 Wherefore David blessed the LORD before all the congregation: and David said, Blessed be thou, LORD God of Israel our father, for ever and ever.​

    Ezra 3:11 And they sang together by course in praising and giving thanks unto the LORD; because he is good, for his mercy endureth for ever toward Israel. And all the people shouted with a great shout, when they praised the LORD, because the foundation of the house of the LORD was laid.​

    Ezekiel 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.​

    Again concerning the cosmos. Why does sin and death remain? Why the need for grave yards? ​

    The cosmos still has the curse of death upon it commonly called entropy which goes against the promise of the Scripture in many places:​

    Romans 2
    18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
    19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
    20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
    21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
    22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
    23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.​

    HankD​
     
    #111 HankD, Jul 18, 2011
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