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What is Hyper-Calvinism?
- Thread starter BobinKy
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quantumfaith
Active Member
I would say, although I like it and respect it, it is as I see it not totally accurate. God's grace provided me the opportunity, I must freely express faith, without such, "I" do not think God will grant me salvation. MY thoughts.
Titus 3:4-6 does not say regeneration precedes faith, faith is not even mentioned in these verses.
John 1:12 refutes your view as it says that as many as received him, which is explained as those who believe on his name, to them (those that believed) gave he power to BECOME the sons of God. This verse says faith precedes regeneration and refutes your view.
And verse 10 says Jesus was the true Light which lighteth EVERY MAN THAT COMETH INTO THE WORLD. This is speaking of revelation or enlightenment, not regeneration, or you would have to conclude that every man who comes into the world is regenerated.
Enlightenment or revelation is not regeneration, many millions have heard of Jesus, the gospel has been revealed to them, and yet have not believed. It is only those that believe that God gives the power to become a son of God. This becoming a son of God is regeneration.
You have refuted your own view with this passage of scripture.
Thats were we are going to agree to disagree.... all you can do is look up in amazement & say thank you. My testimony (16 months ago)
God doesn't say "Look at me", he says "Look UNTO me", a HUGE difference. To "look unto" means to trust.
An analogy:
You are several months behind in your car payments and your car is about to be repossessed. You are very worried and confide in a friend. He says, "Don't worry, just LOOK TO ME, I will take care of it." You decide to trust your friend and quit worrying. You get a phone call from your finance company and find your friend has made all your payments and you are up to date.
To believe doesn't mean to simply accept a set of facts, it means to personally trust or rely on God's promises. The Catholics fully believe that Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead. They believe the facts. But most trust in their works and performing the sacraments to save them, they do not personally trust Jesus alone to save them.
This is shown in the parable of the Pharisee and publican. The Pharisee believed there is a God, he believed the facts, but he trusted or relied on his own righteousness to save him. The publican also believed in God, but he went a step more, he cast himself upon the mercy of God, he relied or depended solely upon God to save him. Jesus said the publican went down to his house justified.
So, believeing is more than accepting facts, it is a very personal committment, it is personally coming to Jesus and casting ourselves upon his great mercy to save us as the publican did.
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Understand, and that was my point for asking as it 'seemed' to leave out the fact that apart from faith being utilized, one is not nor can be, saved. The other was desiring confirmation on your view that the propitiation is NOT applied till after faith has been exercised. There are some on here that hold faith is not necessary for salvation, and that the propitiation IS applied to person prior to faith (because faith is not necessary).
I thought you held a different view (and was correct) but was desiring that confirmation. BTW - most all of what you stated I agree with, though some things I see the mechanics operating differently yet still coming to the same end or conclusion.
Titus shows quite clearly that regeneration FOLLOWS faith. According to the passage is shows that in order to be regenerated, 2 things must happened.
1. Justification (washing/cleansing of regeneration or 'making new' as per - 2 Cor 5:17)
2. Sanctification (renewing of the Holy Spirit - making us unified to God / separated from the world unto God)
BOTH of these are simultaneous events and both, according to scripture, only come into being in the persons life through or by faith.. not prior to, but after.
Regeneration does not merely 'lead' one to salvation nor is it a 'step' in the salvation process, but according to this very text in Titus it is established to BE salvation itself, as it defines the actions having taken place are the same actions that 'make' one eternally saved. We are saved by (then we see the two aspects of regeneration listed - justification and sanctification)
The other passage of scripture also clearly shows (as noted previously) that regeneration FOLLOWS faith. I can also list for you scriptures that show that when God calls us to faith, we are 'still' in darkness, under the power or better authority of Satan, and STILL slaves. We are not set according to scripture set free first, brought into union with God first, placed into the light first and then believe but the reverse.
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This will be my last post here on Baptist Board. I have decided to enter my last post in this thread, as this is the last thread I started at Baptist Board.
First, I wish to thank those who reached out to my questions and offered encouragement and suggestions. Thank you. I will always remember your charity.
Next, Baptist Board is my first encounter (in 61 years) with those from the reformed tradition. Some may say I have been blessed. Others may say I am definitely not one of the elect. If there is such a thing as spiritual DNA or bent, then I can definitely say I do not have a reformed gene in my spiritual DNA, and do not bend toward reformed spirituality in any way that I can tell. I am sorry, Cals.
Interesting, but only Calvinism talks about heresy. On the other hand, I have never heard heresy brought up in the various Arminian tradition churches I have attended in 61 years.
Finally, I am not a pastor, preacher, church administrator, or Sunday School teacher. I am a retired businessman. And in my business career I have never heard such unprofessional and unethical talk from my competitors or their associates. Some of you who call yourselves pastors or whatever, need to [Snip - please don't make blanket accusations and incendiary comments]
Maybe all of this discord is the result of consumerism here in the U.S. -- or its religious counterpart: denominationalism. Seriously, do you not have it in you, to debate a topic in a Christian manner, or at least a professional manner similar to what is found in the secular world. Do some of you really think that after 2000 years you have a theological innovation that has not been discussed before?
. . .
Theology or doctrine or teaching or whatever you choose to call it, does have a social benefit in that it helps to keep like-minded people together when they worship God and fellowship together. Beyond that, I do think some of you take yourselves and your theology too seriously. You need to put away the theology books and find a good old fashioned book of jokes and humor.
I have now brushed close to two religious systems: Dispensationalism and Calvinism. Both systems--and I do believe both are systems rather than avenues of faith--promote the absence of personal accountability. One system teaches: do not worry about tomorrow, the rapture is near and we will be out of here. The other system teaches a form of elitism: God has predestined our spiritual inheritance since the beginning of time, and no one else is invited to the heavenly party; an elitism sadly demonstrated by one member in the thread "What is 'Old Time Religion'" in the Fundamentalism discussion area.
Furthermore, both systems fail to teach true spirituality, spiritual formation, discipleship, or whatever you wish to call it. I would go on about this criticism--but you either get it or you don't.
Again, my Calvinist online friends, I am sorry. However, I have looked at your system and see a [Snip - please refrain from blanket accusations accusing others faith and belief of not being genuine]. Christianity, after all, is quite simple.
Christianity is not a system. The Christian faith is just that--faith in Jesus Christ, who was a religious heretic, God here on earth, and Savior of men and women for all eternity.
. . .
I wish I could leave Baptist Board in a better frame of mind. Maybe I will acquire a better frame of mind, after some time passes and I pray about my participation here.
But for now, I believe God wants me to use my time and gifts for other activities.
Live in peace.
...Bob
First, I wish to thank those who reached out to my questions and offered encouragement and suggestions. Thank you. I will always remember your charity.
Next, Baptist Board is my first encounter (in 61 years) with those from the reformed tradition. Some may say I have been blessed. Others may say I am definitely not one of the elect. If there is such a thing as spiritual DNA or bent, then I can definitely say I do not have a reformed gene in my spiritual DNA, and do not bend toward reformed spirituality in any way that I can tell. I am sorry, Cals.
Interesting, but only Calvinism talks about heresy. On the other hand, I have never heard heresy brought up in the various Arminian tradition churches I have attended in 61 years.
Finally, I am not a pastor, preacher, church administrator, or Sunday School teacher. I am a retired businessman. And in my business career I have never heard such unprofessional and unethical talk from my competitors or their associates. Some of you who call yourselves pastors or whatever, need to [Snip - please don't make blanket accusations and incendiary comments]
Maybe all of this discord is the result of consumerism here in the U.S. -- or its religious counterpart: denominationalism. Seriously, do you not have it in you, to debate a topic in a Christian manner, or at least a professional manner similar to what is found in the secular world. Do some of you really think that after 2000 years you have a theological innovation that has not been discussed before?
. . .
Theology or doctrine or teaching or whatever you choose to call it, does have a social benefit in that it helps to keep like-minded people together when they worship God and fellowship together. Beyond that, I do think some of you take yourselves and your theology too seriously. You need to put away the theology books and find a good old fashioned book of jokes and humor.
I have now brushed close to two religious systems: Dispensationalism and Calvinism. Both systems--and I do believe both are systems rather than avenues of faith--promote the absence of personal accountability. One system teaches: do not worry about tomorrow, the rapture is near and we will be out of here. The other system teaches a form of elitism: God has predestined our spiritual inheritance since the beginning of time, and no one else is invited to the heavenly party; an elitism sadly demonstrated by one member in the thread "What is 'Old Time Religion'" in the Fundamentalism discussion area.
Furthermore, both systems fail to teach true spirituality, spiritual formation, discipleship, or whatever you wish to call it. I would go on about this criticism--but you either get it or you don't.
Again, my Calvinist online friends, I am sorry. However, I have looked at your system and see a [Snip - please refrain from blanket accusations accusing others faith and belief of not being genuine]. Christianity, after all, is quite simple.
Christianity is not a system. The Christian faith is just that--faith in Jesus Christ, who was a religious heretic, God here on earth, and Savior of men and women for all eternity.
. . .
I wish I could leave Baptist Board in a better frame of mind. Maybe I will acquire a better frame of mind, after some time passes and I pray about my participation here.
But for now, I believe God wants me to use my time and gifts for other activities.
Live in peace.
...Bob
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Here is where you deny Romans 5.....I posted this for you before, i will post it again now
This covers it.....It is not "my take" it is what the passage teaches plain and simple.....you deny it,and the age of accountability denies it.
The James passage is a good passage describing how people sin....but it does not address the Romans 5 question.
Every reputable commentary explains this the same way. To go wrong here...leads to going wrong on the cross.
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preacher4truth
Active Member
Absolutely correct. The "that's your take" is willful rejection of what you've proven true and nothing less.
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Since Scripture never contradicts you cannot basically state "your James passage is good...but I raise you a Romans 5". Let's see what James 1:15 says...
"Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."
There is a saying if the common sense makes all the sense seek no other sense. This passage perfectly coincides with the "have sinned" of Romans 5...everyone that can sin has and will, resulting in spiritual death. You cannot fit this James passage into your understanding of Romans 5. James 1:15 PERFECTLY supports an age of accountability whether you call it heretical or not. Praise God we don't answer to you!
All "have sinned". The all are qualified here (in the same way your camp qualifies the "whosoever believes"), but you refuse to see it....oh...and it is your take on it, your interpretation of what it says.
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God bless you Bob, I know how you feel.
preacher4truth
Active Member
I'm sorry, but I view this as self-aggrandizement (Bobs goodbye).
Bob pretends as if he is innocent. He's not. He's done the same as he accuses others. It takes two to tango, not one. Also, to imply this doesn't happen in the business world is hard to believe, I don't buy it at all.
If Armininans dont talk about heresy, then they need to start preaching all of God's Word. I don't buy this either.
I do, however, wish him the best.
Webdog,
I am sorry that you struggle with this. Not only did you once again fail to deal with the romans verses......a point in time...all died in Adam
but you try to somehow link James into teaching what it does not teach
You are saying that a person does not die spiritually until they go through this process of sin in James?? And only if they are old enough??what age is this??
Sorry friend...you have left the reservation with this one.
You will never come to truth with this view....Can you even find anyone who remotely thinks this is the teaching of scripture..can you name one or two that holds this idea??/
To be wrong on the sin question...leads to error in every other area of study.
It is not personal WD...you do not "answer to me".
However ,you do have to give an account to the God who had Paul write Romans 5 as stated...and to your ......teaching....that is at odds with mainline teaching. Sorry i cannot help you with this.
I've dealt with Romans 5 more times than I can remember, with you and others. If you want to think I'm a heretic because I take personal accountability by agreeing with Scripture that I was dead my trespasses and sins that I used to walk in, that's OK as I am in good company.
Don't take it personal, but with all of the subtle questioning of salvation you do with the non-cal's on this board (as a believer I have "come to the truth") I really don't care to get into a mud slinging match with you. If you cannot see the plain meaning in James, don't know what else will convince you.
Don't take it personal, but with all of the subtle questioning of salvation you do with the non-cal's on this board (as a believer I have "come to the truth") I really don't care to get into a mud slinging match with you. If you cannot see the plain meaning in James, don't know what else will convince you.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Yes. I agree with your words. It is sad. But to these it is more about THEM being right, than about the truth of Gods Word. And anything it takes for that end.
Iconoclast, you have been faithful in the Word. Stay there.
It's sad to see the arrogance of those who say they've smacked Calvinism repeatedly when not even the greatest and holiest of theologians have been able to do that. And that door swings both ways. Yet the labels of HyperCalvinist and Pelagian fly around with impunity.
Honestly, I'm starting to think the number of people who can discuss this issue with clarity, reason, and sound theology is a rather small number.
(if you think you're in the number, you quite likely are not, by the way).
(For those who have no sense of humor, here's the funny part
Obviously, I'm the leader of the group who can :laugh:
Honestly, I'm starting to think the number of people who can discuss this issue with clarity, reason, and sound theology is a rather small number.
(if you think you're in the number, you quite likely are not, by the way).
(For those who have no sense of humor, here's the funny part
Obviously, I'm the leader of the group who can :laugh:
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The Eastern Orthodox Church has never accepted or believed in Augustine's Original Sin. There are many millions through church history who do not hold to the RCC view.
You wanted an example of someone who does not agree with this view, here you go. The Eastern Orthodox Church always disagreed with Augustine's interpretation of Romans 5:12 and disagrees to this day.
Edit- It is estimated that there are between 225-300 million Eastern Orthodox, so I would say this is a substantial number of people who disagree with Augustine's interpretation of a flawed Latin text. The Eastern Orthodox used only the original Greek text. Look it up, it's fact.
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