What is Hyper-Calvinism?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It's sad to see the arrogance of those who say they've smacked Calvinism repeatedly when not even the greatest and holiest of theologians have been able to do that. And that door swings both ways. Yet the labels of HyperCalvinist and Pelagian fly around with impunity.

Honestly, I'm starting to think the number of people who can discuss this issue with clarity, reason, and sound theology is a rather small number.

(if you think you're in the number, you quite likely are not, by the way).

(For those who have no sense of humor, here's the funny part

Obviously, I'm the leader of the group who can :laugh:

Very good:thumbs: stands on desk...Captain My Captain! :laugh:

BTW :Jonny Gomes homered against his old team to help the Cincinnati Reds to a 5-0 win over the Tampa Bay Rays in Major League Baseball interleague play on Monday.

Rays dont need this ....not in FL & not when we are trying to close that gap with the Sox & Yanks, OK!

 

[TomVols]

Price and Cueto are dueling as we speak. What a duel, and what a great pair of young pitchers.

 

[Iconoclast]

I've dealt with Romans 5 more times than I can remember, with you and others. If you want to think I'm a heretic because I take personal accountability by agreeing with Scripture that I was dead my trespasses and sins that I used to walk in, that's OK as I am in good company.

Don't take it personal, but with all of the subtle questioning of salvation you do with the non-cal's on this board (as a believer I have "come to the truth")

I really don't care to get into a mud slinging match with you.

If you cannot see the plain meaning in James, don't know what else will convince you.

Webdog,
I never said you were a heretic.I am saying your understanding of Romans 5 is in error. You have repeated it several times. Scroll back over your posts and you will discover that most times you get flack ...is due to this idea you have on this issue.
It is good to offer up the idea that some may be religious,and not yet saved, from time to time. My as you say...subtle questioning....is valid and scriptural as the scripture indicates that there are some who are ever learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Not being able to understand Divine truth is a mark of the unregenerate.

We are all learning and sometimes have misunderstood verses or concepts in scripture. That is not sinful, but perhaps part of the growth process.

However, when people ignorantly and willfully oppose truth this is another issue altogether. In this past month here on the BB...I have seen denials of the infallible,inerrant word of God.
I have seen posts where the poster says...if your God does.....thus...I would never worship a God like that! Those are chilling words.

There are some in here who think their spiritual gift is to moan and whine about calvinism,and calvinists.

WD....you say this;

I really don't care to get into a mud slinging match with you

well...it seems to me that you kind of do that....you are always looking to"report a post"...or it seems like you try to bait someone to transgress the rules of the BB.

but like Haman being hung on the gallows he made for mordecai...it was you who were banned for awhile.
WD.....I would like to see you post more positive things. Maybe a good quote or idea you read...that is offered to edify and open up some bible verses.

Of your 19,000 posts 80% seem to be snide,one or two sentence comments,
with little or no scripture. I know of a few pastors who used to post in here,but have stopped because they did not find the interactions scriptural, or edifying as they should be.

I give everyone some slack because we all can get heated up sometimes.When someone comes at you personally I understand you wanting to sort of vindicate yourself.
Overall...I would like to see the level of interaction improve all the way around.

wd...here is a link to a sermon on James
http://www.alfredplacechurch.org.uk/Sermons/james6.htm

 

[convicted1]

Why do some turn to hyper-Calvinism?

. . .

What is "Hyper-Calvinism"?

I guess it would exclude the preaching of the gospel to everyone, because God will save His Elect without the preaching of His Gospel.

That God foreordained Lucifer to do what he did??

I am not picking on my DoG Brethern, but I think that these two examples would fall into the "Hyper" group. Am I right on these?

 

[preacher4truth]

. . .

What is "Hyper-Calvinism"?

I guess it would exclude the preaching of the gospel to everyone, because God will save His Elect without the preaching of His Gospel.

That God foreordained Lucifer to do what he did??

I am not picking on my DoG Brethern, but I think that these two examples would fall into the "Hyper" group. Am I right on these?

Of course God ordained what Lucifer has done. Why would that be so hard to fathom? He allows all to happen, nothing without His ultimate purpose in the end, and Romans 8:28.

When He created everything, He knew all of this, and went on with His plan. To not believe this is to really not understand God and His ways.

I've never met a hyper-cal, but I hear they are under every rock! *This, of course according to the arminians, with this clincher; God never knew this would happen, nor that the old devil would do what he did. God said "Uh oh!, I never planned for this, I didn't see it coming!"

Yeah, sure.

Some of us simply cannot get past the fact that God can allow things as these, and control all things, yet it cannot change Him and His Hoiness and being just as He is immutable. To not see this and cast this truth off is to not trust Him.

*Disclaimer: This does not describe each and every armininian. Any resemblance of others is not coincidental.

:laugh:

 

[convicted1]

Of course God ordained what Lucifer has done. Why would that be so hard to fathom? He allows all to happen, nothing without His ultimate purpose in the end, and Romans 8:28.

When He created everything, He knew all of this, and went on with His plan. To not believe this is to really not understand God and His ways.

I've never met a hyper-cal, but I hear they are under every rock! *This, of course according to the arminians, with this clincher; God never knew this would happen, nor that the old devil would do what he did. God said "Uh oh!, I never planned for this, I didn't see it coming!"

Yeah, sure.

Some of us simply cannot get past the fact that God can allow things as these, and control all things, yet it cannot change Him and His Hoiness and being just as He is immutable. To not see this and cast this truth off is to not trust Him.

*Disclaimer: This does not describe each and every armininian. Any resemblance of others is not coincidental.

:laugh:

Brother, what I meant in regards to Lucifer was that God solely made Lucifer for this purpose, and that he had no choice but to do what he did. I have a hard time swallowing this. That being said, there is so much about God that none of us knows about. I could be wrong, though....

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Of course God ordained what Lucifer has done. Why would that be so hard to fathom? He allows all to happen, nothing without His ultimate purpose in the end, and Romans 8:28.

When He created everything, He knew all of this, and went on with His plan. To not believe this is to really not understand God and His ways.

I've never met a hyper-cal, but I hear they are under every rock! *This, of course according to the arminians, with this clincher; God never knew this would happen, nor that the old devil would do what he did. God said "Uh oh!, I never planned for this, I didn't see it coming!"

Yeah, sure.

Some of us simply cannot get past the fact that God can allow things as these, and control all things, yet it cannot change Him and His Hoiness and being just as He is immutable. To not see this and cast this truth off is to not trust Him.

*Disclaimer: This does not describe each and every armininian. Any resemblance of others is not coincidental.

:laugh:

Im thinking the kid may have a point. To a true Hyper Cal, the gospel takes a back seat to theology & wild conclusions are drawn....IE Im elect so Im superior & because Im elect I no longer have to be obedient. I will go further with pointing out that sociopaths think that way.

Quite the reverse with an Non Cal gone wild crew. There you get the likes of Rob Bell. There again this love philosophy takes over, over and above gospel truth. Guess Im saying is in both extremes, that scripture is subordinate to other idols.

 

[preacher4truth]

Brother, what I meant in regards to Lucifer was that God solely made Lucifer for this purpose, and that he had no choice but to do what he did. I have a hard time swallowing this. That being said, there is so much about God that none of us knows about. I could be wrong, though....

Well, I hope you also caught the light-heartedness with which I agree that God has ordained this. (although this is a serious matter)

Brother, He could step in and stop any evil at any time, if He wanted to. But, then again, He is not doing it, so it is not His purpose to do so.

I know people say "there's lot's we cannot know" but in all due respect, many say this, and don't garner all the beauty of God in all that they do know now, that they have a hard time with, and let it pass. Look at Moses in Genesis 33 after seeing all the things God did, some very harsh. What was his answer? That he wanted to know more about God, and His ways. Not the opposite, and not turning a blind eye to it. He was in awe.

God doesn't wish us to do this turning away, but to embrace these things, and find Him out. It is how He reveals things to us, it is how we really come to trust Him.

Now, do I understand the ultimate why of these things? Absolutely not, but I know the end, and that is to Glorify Him, and people struggle with this too, because they cannot separate His Sovereign control, that which seems negative to us in it, with His Holiness that can never be changed.

God has brought me to a place, through many hard circumstances, and has revealed to me these things in His Word, some which I wrought against at first, and then, it humbled me, and I see how huge and glorious God is in it, and to be honest I have through this learned to trust Him in a greater way.

- Peace

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I like this Calvinist / Non- Calvinist "Gone Wild" play on words.....its soooo edgy!

 

[preacher4truth]

Im thinking the kid may have a point. To a true Hyper Cal, the gospel takes a back seat to theology & wild conclusions are drawn....IE Im elect so Im superior & because Im elect I no longer have to be obedient. I will go further with pointing out that sociopaths think that way.

Quite the reverse with an Non Cal gone wild crew. There you get the likes of Rob Bell. There again this love philosophy takes over, over and above gospel truth. Guess Im saying is in both extremes, that scripture is subordinate to other idols.

I'm not addressing the ones who let the Gospel take a back seat. I've never met one who does, and none of us are interested in letting that happen.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'm not addressing the ones who let the Gospel take a back seat. I've never met one who does, and none of us are interested in letting that happen.

Yes I understand my friend but I think that might be the primary problem when you boil it down IE these extremes are not good Christians on both sides attempting to work out what God wants us to do or how God wants us to be, that we all struggle with-Understanding the mind of God, but those who have embraced something that they think of as over & above and so they dwell on it. In some way that I haven't completely worked out in my own mind that behavior appears imbalanced & somewhat psychotic.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Of course God ordained what Lucifer has done. Why would that be so hard to fathom? He allows all to happen, nothing without His ultimate purpose in the end, and Romans 8:28.

If God ordained or predestined all of Lucifer's evil, then that makes God the author of all of Lucifer's evil. I am not sure you mean that.

 

[kyredneck]

. . .That God foreordained Lucifer to do what he did??

....that God solely made Lucifer for this purpose, and that he had no choice but to do what he did. I have a hard time swallowing this. That being said, there is so much about God that none of us knows about. I could be wrong, though....

I have a hard time swallowing that too Willis. IMHO, Lucifer's first overt sin was to cast the stumbling block in front of Eve. [edit]I believe God's insertion of Adam into Eden provoked Satan to jealousy [edit]. God KNEW what Satan would do just as He knew the Jews would be provoked to jealousy with the appearing of His Son and the incoming of the Gentiles to the kingdom. It's a consistent constant in all the examples given in the scriptures, the first born is always jealous of the second born. jmho.

 

[preacher4truth]

If God ordained or predestined all of Lucifer's evil, then that makes God the author of all of Lucifer's evil. I am not sure you mean that.

Did God ordain or predestine Satans evil? Does He allow him to do these things? Does He in Scripture give Satan authority to afflict others?

It's exactly what I mean. But you have to define author for yourself, and deal with some hard truths.

If this is an attempt to say I am saying God is sinful, well, that further shows your limited understanding here.

What it sounds like to me is that you believe God created the world, never knew this would happen, correct?

Or, did God create the world, and all things, and knowing it would happen, go forward with His plan?

When something bad happens to a Christian, who authored that? Who let it happen?

 

[quantumfaith]

Did God ordain or predestine Satans evil? Does He allow him to do these things? Does He in Scripture give Satan authority to afflict others?

It's exactly what I mean. But you have to define author for yourself, and deal with some hard truths.

If this is an attempt to say I am saying God is sinful, well, that further shows your limited understanding here.

What it sounds like to me is that you believe God created the world, never knew this would happen, correct?

Or, did God create the world, and all things, and knowing it would happen, go forward with His plan?

When something bad happens to a Christian, who authored that? Who let it happen?

Are these two things "one and the same" in your mind?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

for the record (taken from Primitive Baptist online)

HERETICAL

Under this head we note the following which we believe to be detrimental to the peace and fellowship of the churches, and therefore express our disapproval of them.

1st. That God predestinated sin and wickedness.

2nd. That God's predestination bears the same relationship to sin as to holiness.

3rd. That man loves sin after regeneration as well as he did before regeneration.

4th. That no part of man is changed in regeneration.

5th. That man is changed in his entirety in regeneration.

6th. That the bodies of the saints will not be resurrected.

7th. That the child of God is passive in obedience as in regeneration.

8th. That sin is as pleasing to God as holiness.

 

[jbh28]

If God ordained or predestined all of Lucifer's evil, then that makes God the author of all of Lucifer's evil. I am not sure you mean that.

There are two ways something can be preordained or predestined to happen. One is the common thinking when we say preordained. God choose to create Adam. God choose to create light. The other way is to allow something to happen. God works all things according to the purpose of his will.(Ephesians 1:11) There are things that God has preordained to allow to happen. So, when Adam sinned, it was preordained that Adams would sin. It was preordained by God allowing it to happen. Think about Joseph. He needed to be in Egypt. How did he get there? By his brothers sinning. The brothers meant evil, God meant it for good (Genesis 50:20). Where the problem comes in is when one limits preordaining to God directly causing something, which isn't the case. God allowed the brothers to sin(allow doesn't always mean approval) because it was going to accomplish God's will of having Joseph in Egypt.

While we are all sinners because of us and not God, our sin will never thwart God's plan.

 

[preacher4truth]

for the record (taken from Primitive Baptist online)

HERETICAL

Under this head we note the following which we believe to be detrimental to the peace and fellowship of the churches, and therefore express our disapproval of them.

1st. That God predestinated sin and wickedness.

2nd. That God's predestination bears the same relationship to sin as to holiness.

3rd. That man loves sin after regeneration as well as he did before regeneration.

4th. That no part of man is changed in regeneration.

5th. That man is changed in his entirety in regeneration.

6th. That the bodies of the saints will not be resurrected.

7th. That the child of God is passive in obedience as in regeneration.

8th. That sin is as pleasing to God as holiness.

That's too bad. I believe most of it, but line 1 is not well thought out and is not Scriptural in its presentation of God and what He allows or has preordained to allow to happen.

It fails to justify God as righteous still in His permittance, foreknowledge, and purpose. It condemns God as sinful in that He allows these things to come to pass, which is a by-product of this belief you've shared.

Line 2 shows the complete inablilty here of whomever wrote this declaration to separate God's Holiness from what He has allowed, and is a complete failure in describing Him according to things hard to be understood.

So, I have to say line 1 and line 2 fall well short of accurate truth, and will avoid the word heretical.

I can live with the latter, but the former is turning a blind eye to reality, and inability again to see all that God is and allows.

- Peace

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That's too bad. I believe most of it, but line 1 is not well thought out and is not Scriptural in its presentation of God and what He allows or has preordained to allow to happen.

It fails to justify God as righteous still in His permittance, foreknowledge, and purpose. It condemns God as sinful in that He allows these things to come to pass, which is a by-product of this belief you've shared.

Line 2 shows the complete inablilty here of whomever wrote this declaration to separate God's Holiness from what He has allowed, and is a complete failure in describing Him according to things hard to be understood.

So, I have to say line 1 and line 2 fall well short of accurate truth, and will avoid the word heretical.

I can live with the latter, but the former is turning a blind eye to reality, and inability again to see all that God is and allows.

- Peace

Preach4, I just showed you a man made document I found on a website. I have not even fully processed it yet....but thanks for your critique.:thumbsup:

BTW the PB's dont show me a particular hard determinist side....my opinion though