Faith Received Part Trey!!

[convicted1]

Brothers, I am sorry that I did not respond in the last thread until after it was closed. I do not want to swat the hornet's nest, but I want to address two posts that were directed at me. Please, let's keep this civil.

Webdog wrote:Willis, if you are correct in your understanding of the "faith gift", why does Jesus scold the faith of His disciples and show surprise when He encountered great faith...if these were His gifts given?

Well, Brother Webdog, I see it like this; God when He gives us faith, its like planting a seed in the ground. Now, that seed has to first take up root in the ground before it can spring forth fruit. This happens by watering and feeding that seed(nurturing it, IOW).

In the ORBs, we preach a "travail from nature to grace"; meaning, that when God comes to you and begins drawing you, you then begin seeking after Him. It was like this for me: In May 2006, God began drawing me. I did not know how to save myself(and I couldn't), so I began praying to Him, going to church to hear the Word preached in power, reading His Word, wanting to be saved, but not knowing how to get from point "A" to point "B". Over time, I would quit doing "things", thinking that by doing that, He would save me. Over a period of close to thirteen months, I was still just as lost as I was when He began drawing me. I was begging Him to save me, and I was willing to die the natural death, just save my sould when You do!! I was miserable, and I didn't want to live without Him. When I worked myself out of works, I had to quit trying to be saved, and trust Him. I could not place my trust in Him without His help. I see this as an example of the seed. God, when He first began drawing me at the age of 15-16, He planted that seed. I did not go to church, read His Word, seek after Him for years, and that seed laid dormant for years. But, when I began seeking after Him(after He called me), that seed began to grow. I hope this explains the way I see faith as a gift.

Those that Jesus scolded apparently did not take advantage of the gift of faith.

1 Cor.12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

Now, I know that this is addressed to the "Corinth ORB church":laugh:, but it shows that in these "spiritual gifts", faith is one of them. So I see faith as a gift of God, not that all who receive this gift will put it to good use.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[convicted1]

Brother Luke posted this:

You have some good points here, Willis.

The idea, though, that everyone's salvation is ultimately up to them rather than God is off still.

If we love him BECAUSE he first loved us then our salvation is ultimately up to God and not us.

If God loves everybody then that verse means that EVERYBODY (in a salvific way) will love God. Why? Because we love him for this reason- he first loved us.

His loving us is what CAUSED us to love him.

If it CAUSED us to love him and if it is for everybody then why did it not CAUSE the non-elect to love him?

Saving faith is a gift from God to those who alone are the elect of God.

Now, to address this point by point.

You have some good points here, Willis.

Thank you, Brother.

The idea, though, that everyone's salvation is ultimately up to them rather than God is off still.

Never stated this one time, nor have I even alluded this statement. God states that we must repent to be saved. Read Luke 13:3,5 for starters. Jesus stated, Except Ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish! In Acts 17:30, God has commanded all men everywhere to repent. Without us repenting of our sins, there will be no salvation. We are the ones who must repent, God will not repent for us. This does not give us a reason to glory, because God has commanded "all men everywhere to repent"; we who repent are carrying out this command, and those who do not, aren't carrying this command out. IOW, the ones who repent are obeying His Word, and the others are in disobedience.

If we love him BECAUSE he first loved us then our salvation is ultimately up to God and not us.

I agree with this WHOLEHEARTEDLY. Where have I ever stated the contrary?

If God loves everybody then that verse means that EVERYBODY (in a salvific way) will love God. Why? Because we love him for this reason- he first loved us.

There are children out there that had the most loving parents in the world. They stated that Ted Bundy was raised in a good home by his mother, and I think it was his step-father. Look at what happened to him. Just because God loves someone enough to send His Son to die for them, does not guarantee that they will love Him back. It states that Jesus came unto His Own(OT Elect, if you will), and His Own, received Him not. Did He not come to save His people from their sins? The OT Jews were the ones He came to, and they received Him not. So, just because God loves someone, does not guarantee a recriprocated love.


His loving us is what CAUSED us to love him.

Amen!! :thumbs:

If it CAUSED us to love him and if it is for everybody then why did it not CAUSE the non-elect to love him?

Because they love darkness rather than Light. They were too prideful to need someone.

Saving faith is a gift from God to those who alone are the elect of God.

Saving faith is a gift given to all His creation. It is only those who put it to use, who will be saved.

Its like studying the bible. You can read the bible for thirty years, and unless God gives you the knowledge to understand, and the wisdom to rightly divide, you would be just as ignorant as you were on day one, correct? It is God that gives us what we know about His Word. It states in James 2:15, "Study, to shew thyself approved", correct? Unless we study, we can not learn, correct? Its the same way with salvation. God states in His Word to "repent and believe the gospel", "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise persih, "God has commanded all men everywhere to repent". There are certain "things" that God expects US to do. Study His word is one, and repent is the other.

I hope the study allegory didn't confuse you. I just used it to show you that just because we do something, it doesn't take any of the glory from Him, and place it upon us. If we don't study, He will not show us anything. If we don't repent, we will die lost. Its what is called being obedient to His commands.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[Winman]

Willis, I always enjoy your posts, but I disagree with you here. You equate the "seed" to being faith, when Jesus clearly explained that the seed was the word of God. Jesus also explained that the different soils represented person's hearts and their willingness to believe. Speaking of the seed that fell upon a rock he said these are persons "which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away". (Lk 8:13)

So, do not confuse the seed with the different soils. The same exact seed (word of God) was sown on all four types of soil or ground, but the different grounds represented the receptiveness of different people to the word of God. Some did not receive the seed at all, this is the wayside. The fowls I believe represent sin in the life. Before they believe, sins they cling to enter in and take the word away.

Unlike most, I believe the stoney ground and thorny ground are saved, as they "received" the seed (believed) and they sprung up (life). However, they fell away because of persecution and the cares of this world and produced no fruit, which I believe means going out and winning others for Christ. The good soil are those who become good disciples and are those who produce much fruit, those who win many to Christ.

It makes no sense for Jesus to marvel at the centurion's faith if he gave that faith to him. Likewise, it makes no sense that Jesus marvelled at his countrymen's unbelief if faith is a gift. These persons had heard his words, and many had witnessed miracles and yet did not believe. Jesus fully expected them to believe and marvelled when they did not. This makes no sense at all if faith is a gift. Did Jesus not know or forget they had not been given faith?

But do not confuse the seed (word of God) with the soils (faith of the hearers).

 

[convicted1]

Willis, I always enjoy your posts, but I disagree with you here. You equate the "seed" to being faith, when Jesus clearly explained that the seed was the word of God. Jesus also explained that the different soils represented person's hearts and their willingness to believe. Speaking of the seed that fell upon a rock he said these are persons "which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away". (Lk 8:13)

So, do not confuse the seed with the different soils. The same exact seed (word of God) was sown on all four types of soil or ground, but the different grounds represented the receptiveness of different people to the word of God. Some did not receive the seed at all, this is the wayside. The fowls I believe represent sin in the life. Before they believe, sins they cling to enter in and take the word away.

Unlike most, I believe the stoney ground and thorny ground are saved, as they "received" the seed (believed) and they sprung up (life). However, they fell away because of persecution and the cares of this world and produced no fruit, which I believe means going out and winning others for Christ. The good soil are those who become good disciples and are those who produce much fruit, those who win many to Christ.

It makes no sense for Jesus to marvel at the centurion's faith if he gave that faith to him. Likewise, it makes no sense that Jesus marvelled at his countrymen's unbelief if faith is a gift. These persons had heard his words, and many had witnessed miracles and yet did not believe. Jesus fully expected them to believe and marvelled when they did not. This makes no sense at all if faith is a gift. Did Jesus not know or forget they had not been given faith?

But do not confuse the seed (word of God) with the soils (faith of the hearers).

Brother, first of all, thanks for replying to this thread. :thumbs:

Sorry, about the confusion I have generated. I was not alluding to the "seed" as the Word, but "seed" as a general term. I was using it for an example only. God gives us faith(planted like a seed in the ground), and over time, through seeking Him, reading His Word, hearing His Word preached in power, causes this faith(seed) to grow.

I was using the word "seed" as an example only. Sorry 'bout the confusion.

 

[Winman]

Brother, first of all, thanks for replying to this thread. :thumbs:

Sorry, about the confusion I have generated. I was not alluding to the "seed" as the Word, but "seed" as a general term. I was using it for an example only. God gives us faith(planted like a seed in the ground), and over time, through seeking Him, reading His Word, hearing His Word preached in power, causes this faith(seed) to grow.

I was using the word "seed" as an example only. Sorry 'bout the confusion.

Well, you can't have faith without the Word, no man can believe what he has not heard and does not know.

But the different soils clearly represented the receptiveness of different person to hear and believe. Jesus clearly identified the rocky ground as those "which for a while believe". The believeing is the responsibility of the hearer. Jesus marvelled at his countymen's unbelief because he had fully provided all they needed to believe. They had heard the word of God directly from God himself (Jesus), and they had witnessed many miracles and healings. There was no excuse whatsoever for their lack of belief. He told one group if Sodom and Gomorrah had witnessed what they had witnessed, they would have repented.

God doesn't force or impose faith on us, he provides the evidence we need to believe. But the believeing is our responsibility.

 

[quantumfaith]

Well, you can't have faith without the Word, no man can believe what he has not heard and does not know.

But the different soils clearly represented the receptiveness of different person to hear and believe. Jesus clearly identified the rocky ground as those "which for a while believe". The believeing is the responsibility of the hearer. Jesus marvelled at his countymen's unbelief because he had fully provided all they needed to believe. They had heard the word of God directly from God himself (Jesus), and they had witnessed many miracles and healings. There was no excuse whatsoever for their lack of belief. He told one group if Sodom and Gomorrah had witnessed what they had witnessed, they would have repented.

God doesn't force or impose faith on us, he provides the evidence we need to believe. But the believeing is our responsibility.

Winman, honest questions. I enjoy your posts. What exactly do we mean by the "Word", is it more than simply hearing and being exposed to the Gospel message? Does it mean "revelation" in general? What are we to do with the centuries of humanity that endured history without either knowledge and exposure to the Gospel and those prior to Christ's placement in human history?

 

[DHK]

ffc
1 Cor.12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

Now, I know that this is addressed to the "Corinth ORB church":laugh:, but it shows that in these "spiritual gifts", faith is one of them. So I see faith as a gift of God, not that all who receive this gift will put it to good use.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

First notice that these gifts are given to the believers, not to the unregenerate. God does not give the unregenerate spiritual gifts. He does not give the gift of faith to the unsaved. There is no verse in the NT that teaches that he does.

Secondly, these particular gifts ceased at the end of the first century.

Third, notice how the gift of faith is coupled with the gift of healing.

Fourth, can you point to anyone in the world today that is practicing the Biblical gift of healing? God does not give spiritual gifts to the unregenerate. There is nothing in the Bible that teaches this error.

Where does faith come from:
Faith comes from hearing, and hearing from the Word of God.

 

[convicted1]

First notice that these gifts are given to the believers, not to the unregenerate. God does not give the unregenerate spiritual gifts. He does not give the gift of faith to the unsaved. There is no verse in the NT that teaches that he does.

But, it does show that it was God that gave them the gift of faith. Faith is not something that is "conjured up" by man's own ability. That's the point I am trying to get across.

Secondly, these particular gifts ceased at the end of the first century.

Do you not believe in "faith healing"? Agreed that God doesn't send any one person around the country to heal like the NT Apostles did, but we do have "faith healing" prayers in the ORBs. What we do is when someone comes and asks us to lay hands on them, we set them in a pew, and all the ordained authority(Elders and Deacons), gather around them, and as we are praying, we lay our hands on them asking God to heal them according to His will. My Maw Maw had a brother-in-law, that when she got skin cancer, she would go and have him lay hands on her, and in a few days, it would be gone. Granted, no one nowadays has restored an arm, leg, etc, but "faith healing" is still active today....just not in the magnitude when the Apostles were here.

Third, notice how the gift of faith is coupled with the gift of healing.

I don't disagree with this statement in the least. However, you can hear the preacher preach every word, and it fly over your head, too. The natural ears can only hear so much in relation to the gospel message. To get down to the "nuts n' bolts" of what is being preached, comes from God.

Here are some verses that I think are handy to this conversation:

1 Cor. 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Whenever you hear the preacher's message, it is God that shows the "inner man" what He is showing him what the preacher is saying. God used many preachers to show me what I must do to be saved, and I was a sinner.

Gal. 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

If you gather one thing from hearing the gospel, it comes so through God, and not man. There have been instances when I was at church, that I knew that God was using that preacher to show me what I must do....and I was a sinner. So God shows us through the gospel, and this causes our faith to grow.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[DHK]

But, it does show that it was God that gave them the gift of faith. Faith is not something that is "conjured up" by man's own ability. That's the point I am trying to get across.

No it isn't something conjured up. On that we can certainly agree. That concept comes from the Charismatics, especially the Word of Faith movement. Faith is confidence in the word of another. Abraham was a man of faith and exercised faith throughout his life. The best definition of faith is given by Paul using Abraham as an example:

He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. (Romans 4:20-21)
--There is faith--being fully persuaded that what one has promised he will do. That is it in a nutshell.
Children exercise that kind of faith in the parents all the time, and the Lord used children as an example of the type of faith that one must have--that childlike faith; implicit trust that what they have promised they will do (provide, protect, nourish, etc.). It is the confidence we put in another.

When it comes to salvation, "faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God." Faith is not blind. When I fully confident that Christ has the power to save (not the church, baptism, a priest, my works, etc.), but faith in Christ alone, then and only then, will I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Romans 1:16)

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:18)

God does not give spiritual gifts/the fruit of the Spirit (faith), etc. to the unsaved. They must put their faith, their belief and trust in the gospel message as they are commanded to. There is no other way. Salvation is by faith and faith alone. sola fide.

Do you not believe in "faith healing"? Agreed that God doesn't send any one person around the country to heal like the NT Apostles did, but we do have "faith healing" prayers in the ORBs. What we do is when someone comes and asks us to lay hands on them, we set them in a pew, and all the ordained authority(Elders and Deacons), gather around them, and as we are praying, we lay our hands on them asking God to heal them according to His will. My Maw Maw had a brother-in-law, that when she got skin cancer, she would go and have him lay hands on her, and in a few days, it would be gone. Granted, no one nowadays has restored an arm, leg, etc, but "faith healing" is still active today....just not in the magnitude when the Apostles were here.

That is not the gift of healing. I do not deny that God heals. The Biblical gift of healing is not for today. Here is an example of the Biblical gift of healing.

There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one. (Acts 5:16)
--They were healed, every one of them. They came from ALL the cities that were all around Jerusalem--broken bones, the lame, blind, various diseases that were all obvious to the eye. There were no X-ray machines, scat-scans, MRI's, etc. He healed all, thousands of people, not one was excluded. The equivalent of that today would be a faith healer going to the ER of the hospitals in a city and healing all that are there, and then going up and down the corridors and healing all that are in the hospitals. It doesn't happen. The gift has ceased.
God answers some prayers of healing, but not all. Look around you. How many wear glasses? Why doesn't God heal all our eyesight? Because it is not his will, and the gift of healing has ceased.

I don't disagree with this statement in the least. However, you can hear the preacher preach every word, and it fly over your head, too. The natural ears can only hear so much in relation to the gospel message. To get down to the "nuts n' bolts" of what is being preached, comes from God.

Here are some verses that I think are handy to this conversation:

1 Cor. 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Whenever you hear the preacher's message, it is God that shows the "inner man" what He is showing him what the preacher is saying. God used many preachers to show me what I must do to be saved, and I was a sinner.

Gal. 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

If you gather one thing from hearing the gospel, it comes so through God, and not man. There have been instances when I was at church, that I knew that God was using that preacher to show me what I must do....and I was a sinner. So God shows us through the gospel, and this causes our faith to grow.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

You are talking as a believer again. God strengthens our faith as a believer. But God does not give faith to the unbeliever, and there is no Scripture to support that view. Faith comes through the Word of God, and that is its only source. The Bible makes it clear. That is why you receive faith/confidence by hearing the gospel. That is where faith comes from. It is not a gift that God supernaturally injects into a person. It is not a gift.

The gift of God is eternal life (Rom.6:21)
The gift of God is salvation (Eph.2:8,9)
The gift of God is righteousness (Romans 5)

These gifts are never given to the unsaved. They are given as a result of the unsaved putting their faith in Christ.

 

[Skandelon]

Jesus marvelled at his countymen's unbelief because he had fully provided all they needed to believe.

This statement is either true or Jesus was just acting, and since I can't believe the latter to be true, this statement proves that a faith response is indeed a responsibility of man which God has granted to all man.

 

[preacher4truth]

Bro convicted1

You are totaly scriptural here in that you recognize God gives the gift of faith that justifies the unbeliever.

Pelagius believed that man didn't need Gods grace, nor His gifts at all, that man was basically good, and as a metter of fact believed man could live a good life and even a perfect life without these. He said that man could use Gods' grace for assistance, but it wasn't necessary.

The entire fault lie in two things with Pelagius. 1. It was unscriptural 2. Everything that came from his false base was then false teaching.

Many here will advocate this same faulty unscriptural reason themselves, having adopted (unawares?) the same unscriptural belief system, in that: man is good, and man can reach and do it himself.

This is semi-pelagian religion.

We were dead in sins, and our works wicked, and we were at enmity (war) with God, and all our righteousnesses weren't righteous.

Faulty base, faulty outcome is anything otherwise, and to which the proponents thereof you are debating here are embracing.

Faith that justifies is clearly a gift from God. Fighting against this truth is really fighting for the glory of man and his efforts, and against God and His Word and that He does all of the saving alone.

- Peace

 

[Skandelon]

Bro convicted1

You are totaly scriptural here in that you recognize God gives the gift of faith that justifies the unbeliever.

Pelagius believed that man didn't need Gods grace, nor His gifts at all, that man was basically good, and as a metter of fact believed man could live a good life and even a perfect life without these. He said that man could use Gods' grace for assistance, but it wasn't necessary.

The entire fault lie in two things with Pelagius. 1. It was unscriptural 2. Everything that came from his false base was then false teaching.

Many here will advocate this same faulty unscriptural reason themselves, having adopted (unawares?) the same unscriptural belief system, in that: man is good, and man can reach and do it himself.

Many? I don't know of ANY here who would dare make that claim.

You need to provide proof for such accusations, or retract them.

 

[preacher4truth]

Many? I don't know of ANY here who would dare make that claim.

You need to provide proof for such accusations, or retract them.

Retract what others have apparently said, in the same thread, that faith is not a gift from God? This was also Pelagius belief.

You've not read winmans threads, that man is good, not bad, with proof-texts? This was also Pelagius belief.

I'm not retracting what is well known fact.

 

[DHK]

I believe this discussion would be far more beneficial if we stick to the positions held by each other and back them up by Scripture (as we have been doing), without mentioning the names of other theologians: Arminius, Pelagius, etc.

 

[DHK]

Retract what others have apparently said, in the same thread, that faith is not a gift from God?

No, this is my position. I have been saying it in four threads now.
God does not give spiritual gifts (like faith) to the unregenerate. If you don't believe this truth then refute it with Scripture. No one has done so yet.

 

[preacher4truth]

I believe this discussion would be far more beneficial if we stick to the positions held by each other and back them up by Scripture (as we have been doing), without mentioning the names of other theologians: Arminius, Pelagius, etc.

I think that linking beliefs to other theologians, and to Scripture is of great benefit.

I've been linked to Calvin many times, and I am not even aware of his writings. (other than by name)

I think knowing other theologians that espouse the same teachings sheds light on what is at hand and at stake.

 

[DHK]

I think that linking beliefs to other theologians, and to Scripture is of great benefit.

I've been linked to Calvin many times, and I am not even aware of his writings. (other than by name)

I think knowing other theologians that espouse the same teachings sheds light on what is at hand and at stake.

I am not here to debate the beliefs of other theologians. If you can't refute my position (as you haven't been able to do in four threads now), why do I need to listen to some old theologian. If you want to start a thread for the beliefs of others then start another thread. That is not the title of this thread.

 

[preacher4truth]

No, this is my position. I have been saying it in four threads now.
God does not give spiritual gifts (like faith) to the unregenerate. If you don't believe this truth then refute it with Scripture. No one has done so yet.

Well, thanks for making it apparent that I didn't make this up. Skandalon, please take note.

Secondly, you have been refuted by many Scriptures, repeatedly.

Faith is a Gift of the Grace of God.

I'll let convicted1 continue to show you this from the Bible. He's doing a great job by the way.

Furthermore, I wanted to shed some light on where the denial of this truth came from in recorded history.

 

[preacher4truth]

I am not here to debate the beliefs of other theologians. If you can't refute my position (as you haven't been able to do in four threads now), why do I need to listen to some old theologian. If you want to start a thread for the beliefs of others then start another thread. That is not the title of this thread.

Nothing I've said is off-track of this thread, it merely provides history of where the belief that faith is not a gift came from, which is exactly what this thread is about, whether faith is a gift or not.

As if threads going off track were something new.

My comments are right in line with the OP. With history as a buffer.

 

[DHK]

Well, thanks for making it apparent that I didn't make this up. Skandalon, please take note.

Secondly, you have been refuted by many Scriptures, repeatedly.

Faith is a Gift of the Grace of God.

I'll let convicted1 continue to show you this from teh Bible.

Furthermore, I wanted to shed some light on where the denial of this truth came from in recorded history.

Can you show me from the Bible where God gives faith to the unregenerate?
Just one verse?
I don't believe you can.