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IS the "Restainerr' mentioned By Apostle Paul the Holy Spirit?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
It is those who think they are perfect on those of us who know we are!
preacher4truth
Active Member
I will bow out. After all, whatsoever I say must be proven by links, dictionaries, encyclopedias, dignitaries, must be notarized, copyrighted, patented, passed through congress, the senate, and go through many other avenues, and result in a Nobel Peace Prize before being accepted!!!!!
Either that, or I get a ticket!
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
preacher4truth
Active Member
well, uh, this one aint in too bad of shape, but if this is what "glorified" is, well, we be hurtin' in heaven with some aches and pains!!!
:laugh: :laugh: :thumbsup: :tongue3:
Tom Butler
New Member
Did I miss it, or has anybody answered the OP question. Is the Restrainer the Holy Spirit?
I'm thinking that this interpretation is prevalent because of the view that the Holy Spirit is supposed to leave when the church is raptured, and all restraining influences to restrain evil are now gone.
Since I don't hold to the Pre-trib Rapture, I have a problem with that view. If the church is still here during the tribulation, isn't the Holy Spirit, as well?
So, can the HS be the Restrainer if he's not taken out of the way?
One view I've heard is that it is Michael the Archangel. Anybody else heard that?
I'm thinking that this interpretation is prevalent because of the view that the Holy Spirit is supposed to leave when the church is raptured, and all restraining influences to restrain evil are now gone.
Since I don't hold to the Pre-trib Rapture, I have a problem with that view. If the church is still here during the tribulation, isn't the Holy Spirit, as well?
So, can the HS be the Restrainer if he's not taken out of the way?
One view I've heard is that it is Michael the Archangel. Anybody else heard that?
preacher4truth
Active Member
How is the church still here if the church is raptured pre-trib? Maybe I misunderstand something.
The SECOND coming. Only two? Two, only? Where do you, P4T, you, derive [only] TWO comings of Christ? (I know where I'm coming from, do you? Are just just parroting what you've heard from hoi polloi all your life (it's what most do)? Any serious meditation on your own part with this?)
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preacher4truth
Active Member
ky, no need to come at me like this, OK? You have all truth and possess more knowledge by your insinuation, then please share. I'm all ears.
To say I am "parroting" is frankly, disrespectful bro. No need for this.
Since you come out as possessing greater knowledge of these things, I expect the Christian Spirit to be on the same level. Fair enough?
Now, go ahead please bro, and tell me about how many comings of Christ there are to be since the ascension.
- Peace
Your comments/thoughts on the passages in post #5?
preacher4truth
Active Member
Cool, I will look into it tomorrow as the day is over my friend, and I am spent.
Now, as to our attitude in all this? Reconcile as brothers? Please? I mean you no harm bro.
- Peace
No problem.
I don't know how you stand with your eschatology, but you seem to mock the spiritual interpretations, and to have a total disregard for the preterist [fulfilled] eschatology.
I admit, I mock those of the Israel Cult. They've made physical Israel their golden calf. Do you agree with them?
preacher4truth
Active Member
Brother KY, you have to take my posting as all humor and chuckle and consider while casting for that next beauty of a smallmouth!!!!
- Peace
I hope the river's down enough for the wife and I to put a trotline out tommorrow. Mom's gone now, I've the leisure time once again; it's been awhile.....
I think you missed something here Brother Tom. The 'interpretation' isn't prevalent because of the view (the Spirit being take away).. the view came into being because there is no other contextual way to understand the passage.
I realize you merely asked the question about Michael, but in all honesty since when is or has Michael the Archangel benn restraining or the restrainer of sin?
That is just what the text is setting forth.. the mystery of iniquity (the secret or hidden purpose of lawlessness or sin).. only He* who now restrains [it] will do so until He* is taken out of the way. Who biblically is the only person with the power to 'restrain' or 'prevent' the sin and secret purposes thereof?
Remember Michael would not even contend with Satan over Moses body.. but said the Lord rebuke you.
Who does scripture state is the One to reveal sin, to convict people of sin, to hinder or prevent sin in the lives of believers, or even unbelievers?
Is it not God and God alone.. more specifically God the Holy Spirit? Or does Michael or anyone else do this as well?
Now the passage is speaking of sin being loosed (no longer restrained) and it is epitomized in the bringing forth of the 'man of sin' who is revealed at his appointed time. So there is a specific time in which he will make his world appearance. That time is stated to be when the restrainer, when HE is taken away THEN the 'man of sin is revealed'. (verse 5 and 6). Note it does not state when He stops restraining which would be normative flow of the sentence.. He is straining .. He stops restraining.. but it states He is restraining ... He is removed (or taken away).
And precedes BOTH of these two events... a 'great' falling away or apostasy from the true faith. Now some hold this to be that the 'world' view will no longer tolerate the christian view (it was being persecuted at Pauls time BUT it was also being Widely accepted - this would be a reversal of this).... however some believe that apostasy refers to the Christian faith being laid aside by believers for worldly things... in either case the result is the same.. the Christian view is not marginalized but greatly diminished from the global view. Paul set no boundaries on scale of the apostasy in relation the regions but in a general sense, which encompasses the whole of where ever Christianity has come.
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convicted1
Guest
I am wondering the very same thing.
Well I see several post and no answer for the fulfillment or non-fulfillment question in post #12 from you, guess you missed it.
Yes.. they are known as Full Preterist Amills.
The Second and final coming of Christ Jesus has ALREADY taken place in 70ad.
It was spiritual.
Tom Butler
New Member
Allan,
Re your post #33
Whoever the Restrainer is, I agree that he restrains the Anti-Christ.
My reading of II Thess 2 says the Restrainer is "taken out of the way." This is not the same as being "taken away," as most Dispys maintain. I don't see that it has to mean that the Holy Spirit leaves the earth (at the rapture of the Church), but that he simply stops restraining.
The fact that Michael the Archangel refused to contend with Satan over the body of Moses doesn't tell us much. In fact, in Rev. 12, we see Michael and his forces defeating Satan and his angels. But that doesn't tell us much either about the Restrainer.
I framed my previous post in the form of questions because I frankly don't know the answer. But there is a considerable body of opinion which holds that the Restrainer is Michael.
I just don't think we can automatically assume that the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer.
Re your post #33
Whoever the Restrainer is, I agree that he restrains the Anti-Christ.
My reading of II Thess 2 says the Restrainer is "taken out of the way." This is not the same as being "taken away," as most Dispys maintain. I don't see that it has to mean that the Holy Spirit leaves the earth (at the rapture of the Church), but that he simply stops restraining.
The fact that Michael the Archangel refused to contend with Satan over the body of Moses doesn't tell us much. In fact, in Rev. 12, we see Michael and his forces defeating Satan and his angels. But that doesn't tell us much either about the Restrainer.
I framed my previous post in the form of questions because I frankly don't know the answer. But there is a considerable body of opinion which holds that the Restrainer is Michael.
I just don't think we can automatically assume that the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer.
wasn't there a common belief held at some time that the restrainer was/is Human Government?
Also that the restrainer might be the Body of Christ upon the earth, as HS moves thru us to influence World, once Bride raptured away than the HS back tio being here much as he was OT times pre pentacost?
Tom, you missed my point but caught the tail end regarding the anit-christ. The restraining of the Anti-Christ is the culmination of or the culminating work of the restrainer till his time (the Anti-Christ's) has come. It is the very purpose for which 'He' is restraining sin and evil till his time is come. Look again at does the passage says He is ALSO restraining PRIOR to the coming of the Anti-Christ.. the 'mystery of iniquity or lawlessness' or to be simplistic - sin.
Please tell me what scripture states lawlessness is, as before God?
You missed this entire section of my post.
This is crux of the passage concerning who -He- is, and is the very reason the Lawless one can not come forth. AGAIN, who is the only person in scripture that can hold back sin (the act and desires)?
Is it Michael?
Brother, look it up. The word 'out' does not mean 'step aside' or to simply 'stop restraining', it means 'to remove' or out 'from'.. thus the phrase 'take out' meaning literally removed 'out from the midst'.
A.T. Roberson - Renowned Reformed and Greek Scholar states about this:
Now.. here is my point... the passage, in both the Greek and translated into English state - HE - was removed or taken away.. IOW - it was not the action that ceased and He remained but that HE was removed, taken away SO THAT the Anti-Christ could come forth.
The crux here is based upon the sentence structure. It would naturally follow that if sin/lawlessness is being 'restrained' by 'He', then it is the 'restraint' that would be removed, NOT the restrainer, If we are to note that He is still there. However, if the restraint was no more because the 'restrainer' was removed/taken away.. then it logically follows so does the restraint and thus we see the coming of that mystery of lawlessness - the Anti-Christ.
Theology does not dictate what scripture states but is built according to what is stated by scripture.. in this the point is (I believe unequivocally made about who the *He* is - God the Holy Spirit, as Michael is never stated to do ANY of these aspects in scripture (restrain sin, hold back the culmination of lawlessness (the mystery) which will bring forth The Lawless One)
And while Michael is argued in scripture to be the guardian or protecting angel over Israel, he still is never said to be restraining sin much less the purposes of sin.
Additionally, there Greek shows a definite article before the term 'one', meaning THE one, or the only one who is restraining sin.
Are you really going to argue that is Michael the Archangel?
Brother, even the Covenant Reformed at least agree with me that the 'He' here is speaking of God.. though they see the anti-Christ as being the Roman Church.. it was God who restrained it.
I have also seen some contend it is Michael, BUT they contend that Jesus IS Michael.. and thus He is the restrainer
John Gill and Matthew Henry contended the 'he' is actually the church (the Roman Church) that was being freed from it's pagan roots.
Actually it DOES tell us a great deal. That Michael can only do according to what He is told/allowed.. and THAT, like us, is specific to our ability to influence our surroundings. Thus Michael logically CAN NOT be the restrainer of lawlessness, which is a global, and not only external but internal.
I have found little brother, and what I have found are not those 'you' would agree with.
[quote just don't think we can automatically assume that the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer.[/QUOTE]I agree, and thus we must allow scripture to tell us.. which I believe it does, unquestioningly - the Holy Spirit