Gods View of Lost Man

[freeatlast]

My point exactly with God Predestined us, those who will believe to be His children. Because He knew in eternity past the choice we would make concerning His Son. Do we see an example in the Bible that shows what He foreknows, you bet we do with Jacob and Esau.
Did God know before the two boys were born what choices they would make, scripture shows it.
Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
Romans 9: 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Paul makes it clear they were called not according to not of works, and yet God knew Esau would serve Jacob and God hated Esau, not that he hated in our terms He knew Esau's heart and that Esau would reject Him.

God foreknows the choices we would make and Election stands on that.

I understand your point but I am afraid that I do not hold the same. I do not believe that God chose us because He knew we would accept. In the case text you pointed to, Gen 25:23, I do not see it as God simply knowing what would take place and then work that into His plan. I see it as God ordaining what would take place and allowing it to unfold as each individual lived out his life.

Let me make a point here about holding that God knows the future and elects on that bases. First if God has to look down through history to see what is going to take place then He is limited by time and history. Then one would have to ask who set history in stone if God has to take a peek at it and then do His thing?
Now I speak as a fool. If this is the case (God looking down through history) then we need to learn of the one who set history because this one (entity) would be more powerful then the God we call on if history is set outside of God's purview.
No I don't believe that God sees ahead of time and then elects. I believe that God simply predestines and he has predestined election to all who will accept and yet somehow does not violate the volition of man. I am not saying it is 50/50. I am saying it is 100/100. He calls and every elect will come, but not all who are called become the elect because of volition.

Now that I have said more then I even understand I will stop for now.

 

[JesusFan]

I understand your point but I am afraid that I do not hold the same. I do not believe that God chose us because He knew we would accept. In the case text you pointed to, Gen 25:23, I do not see it as God simply knowing what would take place and then work that into His plan. I see it as God ordaining what would take place and allowing it to unfold as each individual lived out his life.

Let me make a point here about holding that God knows the future and elects on that bases. First if God has to look down through history to see what is going to take place then He is limited by time and history. Then one would have to ask who set history in stone if God has to take a peek at it and then do His thing?
Now I speak as a fool. If this is the case (God looking down through history) then we need to learn of the one who set history because this one (entity) would be more powerful then the God we call on if history is set outside of God's purview.
No I don't believe that God sees ahead of time and then elects. I believe that God simply predestines and he has predestined election to all who will accept and yet somehow does not violate the volition of man. I am not saying it is 50/50. I am saying it is 100/100. He calls and every elect will come, but not all who are called become the elect because of volition.

Now that I have said more then I even understand I will stop for now.

Just to clarify this, are you saying that God elects ALL people into jesus, than depending on IF we permit/allow God to keep us saved in Christ?

Like a type of potential Universalism?

 

[freeatlast]

Just to clarify this, are you saying that God elects ALL people into jesus, than depending on IF we permit/allow God to keep us saved in Christ?

Like a type of potential Universalism?

Perhaps there is a problem with the word elect or better stated how we (you and me) are using it. I am saying that I believe everyone gets a call. I believe that it is election that is predestined and we become the elect if we through volition accept the call. Every elect will come, but they will come because of volition, not because of being forced or without choice. As to allowing God to keep us saved yes. Well strange wording, but I allowed Him to save me so why would I not want Him to keep me saved. I cannot do it.

 

[revmwc]

I understand your point but I am afraid that I do not hold the same. I do not believe that God chose us because He knew we would accept. In the case text you pointed to, Gen 25:23, I do not see it as God simply knowing what would take place and then work that into His plan. I see it as God ordaining what would take place and allowing it to unfold as each individual lived out his life.

Let me make a point here about holding that God knows the future and elects on that bases. First if God has to look down through history to see what is going to take place then He is limited by time and history. Then one would have to ask who set history in stone if God has to take a peek at it and then do His thing?
Now I speak as a fool. If this is the case (God looking down through history) then we need to learn of the one who set history because this one (entity) would be more powerful then the God we call on if history is set outside of God's purview.
No I don't believe that God sees ahead of time and then elects. I believe that God simply predestines and he has predestined election to all who will accept and yet somehow does not violate the volition of man. I am not saying it is 50/50. I am saying it is 100/100. He calls and every elect will come, but not all who are called become the elect because of volition.

Now that I have said more then I even understand I will stop for now.

I never said it was 50/50 Since He foreknew, knew everything that would happen before it ever did He elected those who would make a choice for Him a place in His family. Just a we make plans for a new child being born into our family, we know the pregnancy exist and we plan for that child based on our knowing it is growing and will be born.
God knew who would be born into His family and elected a place for them in that family, made a room we might say for them. We choose to accept Christ because God gave us volition, God elected us into His family, because He knew what our volition (choice) would be, He neither forced us to choose nor did He force us to reject Christ, He left the choice to us, but He foreknew the choice we would make and planned accordingly.
Had He not known the choice Adam and Eve would make He would not have made plans for His Son to come and die on the cross
1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

If God didn't foreknow before the foundation of the world that Adam and Eve would fall, then why would He have made plans for their fall?
Christ we are told by Peter was foreordained before the foundation of the world, to give His precious Blood and be sacrificed as a Lamb without spot and blemish. We have our faith and Hope in Him. If God knew man would fall He also knew who would and would not accept the Lamb that was Foreordained to be the Sacrifice for us.