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“Real” Ability of all God’s Creatures to Respond to the Influence of Him/Seek Truth
- Thread starter Benjamin
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In our theological battles we tend to forget God's immanent actions from eternity and try to embrace them in human terms. Many of these actions virtually happen simultaneously in human terms, and often we move man's reactions ahead of God's actions. We must always remember, it is always man's reactions; he reacts to God's action.
Cheers,
Jim
Cheers,
Jim
Then it is salvation by works. The outsider (you) determines if the believer has persevered enough to make it to heaven. You determine if he is carnal enough to be considered carnal. After all it is subjective. Is it one sin, two sins? A day of sins? A week? a month? When is a person termed "carnal?" With such arbitrariness you have become very legalistic in your faith. (you as in being the one who takes this position)
If there is free will here, then there must be free will to choose to come to Christ in the first place. Let's be consistent. "We can choose not to obey God." That is free will is it not?
We don't believe that.
You mean something like Clark Pinnock?
quantumfaith
Active Member
Just to be clear
The 5th article of the Remonstrants does NOT teach that one can lose salvtion, rather it admits ambiguity as to whether one can "walk away from salvation".
Article 5.
[Assurance and Security - corresponds to the fifth of TULIP’s five points, Perseverance of the Saints]
That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, as a result have full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no deceit or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of neglecting grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full confidence of our mind.
The 5th article of the Remonstrants does NOT teach that one can lose salvtion, rather it admits ambiguity as to whether one can "walk away from salvation".
Article 5.
[Assurance and Security - corresponds to the fifth of TULIP’s five points, Perseverance of the Saints]
That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, as a result have full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no deceit or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of neglecting grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full confidence of our mind.
Aic.....If we meet some times.....with just our bibles [ i will not bring calvin with me] I will offer you many verses of scripture [no calvin quotes]
honestly.... I cannot quote calvin at all..
What I believe from scripture I believed before I knew any of the terms from theology.....Once I saw that others saw these same truths...I started to learn about it. aic,,,,try it...you might like it...read a puritan....see what they saw in scripture:wavey:
aic....when you make these remarks...it seems as if you are.....out of gas, or out of spiritual ammo. You "think" I am in error,but are not sure why. So then you say...you are following men...as if that will make it all better.
benjamin,
before I respond to your two posts could you clarify two things here,as they look to be heretical novelties as written....here in your post 39
before I respond to your two posts could you clarify two things here,as they look to be heretical novelties as written....here in your post 39
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winman.....please learn to read the post correctly....I said that to you who question.....you and benjamin...not the struggling person
aic....think it out
When you answer the two questions we can go further,,as written, they are not orthodox, Your snide comments are not an answer.
dhk
of course we know that there is no "free will" except in philosophical speculation....
however ....a free moral agent might choose to have coffee[ i prefer dunkin donuts coffee] as his nature would desire.......and yes, God allows him to have this coffee,and each breath of air he takes.:thumbs:
Nothing can take place outside of God's control.:thumbsup::thumbs:
dhk
it is not accurate because the error is mixed into the truth
backslidders are apostates.....false professors do not lose rewards, but they lose their soul.
The man who perseveres does so because God works in Him.
it is not accurate because the error is mixed into the truth
backslidders are apostates.....false professors do not lose rewards, but they lose their soul.
The man who perseveres does so because God works in Him.
winman
election took place before the world was.....you were no factor in it
election took place before the world was.....you were no factor in it
From the beginning of creation my friend:
Gen 3:22
(22) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Sorry that you don’t understand what I mean:
Rom 8:8-9
(8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Gal 4:6
(6) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16-17
(16) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
(17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
…Says the theological fatalist.
Your post #76 reeks of a false message, possibly in front of the lost, that is nothing more than your sorrowful way to proclaim God’s grace is only “really” offered to the specially pre-selected few; it clearly denies and avoids the truth as presented in the OP which is backed by scripture and your false message attempts to do the work of the Liar who would have men believe they have no “real” choice to accept the “real” promise of grace for ALL God’s creatures! Therefore, I presented the real Gospel message. I have no desire to chase rabbits or spend my time wading through smokescreens of people who can’t follow a logical argument backed by scripture.
With your usual smokesreen tactics you ignore the OP and then vainly demand that I revert to answering your non-supported hyper-determinist dogma…phssst!
My only concern was to voice the truth to any one reading that might need to hear the truth that grace is “really” offered to all God’s creatures. At the end of your “individual points” you state:
HA! Give me a break! This is an open forum and the ONLY clarification needed was to preach the truth to whoever might need it, I went on to expose the foolishness of your preaching with a question (which you skirted by talking about me mocking God and did not answer), and finally asked you to stay on topic and address the OP and post #39. Therefore, I said:
You come back with a couple of ignorant snippets about heresy and orthodoxy, declaring your fatalistic hard determinist’ view that there is no free will, and proclaiming election took place before the world was…yet say “I” mock God when I rebuked your false teaching of a special pre-selected few having been chosen! Friend, I was mocking your words and you are nowhere near speaking for God.
I stopped and said “nevermind” because I know your circular argument tactics on this debate board, your inability to logically reason, your refusal to stay on topic if you feel you can redirect the argument and that you would not address the OP because you can not.
Enough said, the argument in the OP is clearly defined and waiting there if you wish to address it.
The Gospel is not limited to a “multitude” of “pre-chosen and elected persons” it is offered for “whosoever will” believe. You were very careful to window dress how you would preach to the lost while cleverly disguising your doctrine although strangely you certainly have no problem announcing the “Doctrine of Pre-Selected Grace” here in an open forum, but supposedly you would not directly point to your believe that some have not been pre-selected and thereby have no hope, but I suspect #6 reveals to me everything I need to know about how quickly you would turn on a person who was struggling with their faith and gave you a little static. I give the lost “real” hope because I tell them of the truth of a loving God's promise made to all His creatures, no matter if they mock, scoff or whatever.
WestminsterMan
New Member
winman
election took place before the world was.....you were no factor in it
Are you counted as one of the "elect"? If so, how do you know?
Here's how I know...
John 3:16
For God so loved the WORLD, that he gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
WM
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You still haven't shown a reason for your belief that the natural man cannot respond with out regeneration. All Calvinist make this same bogus claim and it isn't found in scripture. It's assumed as is all of the Calvinist doctrines. There is no inability neither implied or established as fact from scripture. This comes from the heart of Calvinism and it is not scriptural. If it were you would have shown it by now. Doctrine with out proof from scripture isn't worth spit.
If this were true and it isn't. You should be able to prove it with scripture.
Put up your proof or stop making such claims as this. Don't you realize that you destroy your witness evertime you make a claim you cannot prove with scripture.
Simply not true because not all who obviously hear the gospel accept it as truth. If it were true everyone who hears it would be saved. The Bible says every gentile will hear it.
MB
Yes, all the elect will believe.
Can you show with scripture that you are in fact elected?
MB
quantumfaith
Active Member
and as it continues, ONLY the elect will believe? If only the commutativeness could be proven.
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