“Real” Ability of all God’s Creatures to Respond to the Influence of Him/Seek Truth

[Winman]

Winman
thanks for your concern. We are to be faithful to peoples souls, not be so concerned to encourage a sinner in His rebellion.
jeremiah saw that evil in his day;

winman...is this how you would handle a soul?




Anyone who savingly repents and believes the gospel is elect...even some reluctant arminians who do not realize it yet.
That is the point winman....everyone believing and continuing to believe is one of the elect.[whether on not they totally understand the doctrine]

LOL, now you are professing Arminian doctrine. Arminians say they know they are elect because they have believed, now you are saying the same thing!

When the rubber hits the road you must resort to non-Cal/Arm doctrine to have any assurance of your salvation. Your Ref/Cal doctrine fails you.

Welcome aboard!

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast posted, regarding his witnessing to a lost person, that he says this...

4 God seeing all mankind as fallen In Adam...has purposed to save a multitude of sinners In Christ.

God have mercy. It IS NOT Gods desire that *some* be saved. No, according to the scriptures it is His desire that ALL be saved. They all WONT, but God wants them all to be saved.

The Father gives this multitude to the Son before the world was made.

Which means that all the other billions who were created were created with
no hope of anything other than hell. God have mercy.

The Son comes into the world in the form of a servant,to live and die for these chosen and elected persons.

God have mercy.

Christ came and died for the sins of the entire world. Every sin ever commited, or will be commited.

The Son has promised that each and everyone of these persons...at a point in time....will repent and believe the gospel not one will be lost

Because, of course, they were the lucky ones who won the proverbial "lottery" and get to be saved.

May God have mercy

 

[Alive in Christ]

LOL, now you are professing Arminian doctrine. Arminians say they know they are elect because they have believed, now you are saying the same thing!

When the rubber hits the road you must resort to non-Cal/Arm doctrine to have any assurance of your salvation. Your Ref/Cal doctrine fails you.

Welcome aboard!

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Benjamin]

Let me know if you would like clarification on this.

I preach of the promise of a loving Creator made before the foundation of the world for all His creatures that offers grace through faith for whosoever will love the truth and believe; I preach the word of faith that if they confess the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in their heart that God raised Him from the dead they will be saved.

You say, “you would have no problem preaching the “bible truth” in front of me” and that is correct as properly defined, but if you started preaching a fatalistic determinist’ doctrine that attempts to proclaim to the lost that the promise is only “really” offered to a special pre-selected few you can rest assured that God’s truth would stand against that false doctrine and a searching person would be presented with God’s truth that all men have hope in the promises made through Jesus Christ!

Tell me Iconoclast did you lie to your children when you put them to bed at night and tell them that Jesus loves them or did you tell them your “bible truth” that you hope they are one of the pre-selected few?

Nevermind, I’ve made my argument in detail that all God’s creatures have the “real” ability to respond to the influences of God which gives light and hope to every man that comes into the world in the OP and post #39 and backed it up with plenty of unanswered scriptures. I have not seen you offer anything more than a few snippets accompanied with poor reasoning in this tread that were quickly refuted. I see you “really” have nothing more to offer to a carefully laid out argument than a few smokescreens and we’ve had this discussion before.

 

[Iconoclast]

LOL, now you are professing Arminian doctrine. Arminians say they know they are elect because they have believed, now you are saying the same thing!

When the rubber hits the road you must resort to non-Cal/Arm doctrine to have any assurance of your salvation. Your Ref/Cal doctrine fails you.

Welcome aboard!

Winman,
All calvinists would agree that when someone believes it is only because God has allowed them to...why do you think this strange?
Calvinists use Jn 3:16 also! Calvinists go to Acts 2 where sinners are commanded to repent and believe the gospel;

Winman I gave you only the readers digest version....off course you know that the elect are commanded to ;

1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Winman...do you give dilegence to make YOUR CALLING AND ELECTION SURE? Are you one of God's elect Winman?
The fact that you would think a calvinist would not think profession /confession is made unto salvation is a bit odd. Almost every sermon I know of includes in the message a call to come to Christ for mercy.
maybe you have not read or heard many calvinists lately?

if you have not heard this kind of preaching let me know,and I will send you plenty of such sermons.
The salvation that Jesus provides is 100% certain based on His promise. the real question is are we IN Christ.
thats why we are told to examine ourselves if we be in the faith....thier is a scriptural assurance of salvation....saving faith works,as Christ works in us!

 

[Winman]

Winman,
All calvinists would agree that when someone believes it is only because God has allowed them to...why do you think this strange?
Calvinists use Jn 3:16 also! Calvinists go to Acts 2 where sinners are commanded to repent and believe the gospel;

Winman I gave you only the readers digest version....off course you know that the elect are commanded to ;


Winman...do you give dilegence to make YOUR CALLING AND ELECTION SURE? Are you one of God's elect Winman?
The fact that you would think a calvinist would not think profession /confession is made unto salvation is a bit odd. Almost every sermon I know of includes in the message a call to come to Christ for mercy.
maybe you have not read or heard many calvinists lately?

if you have not heard this kind of preaching let me know,and I will send you plenty of such sermons.
The salvation that Jesus provides is 100% certain based on His promise. the real question is are we IN Christ.
thats why we are told to examine ourselves if we be in the faith....thier is a scriptural assurance of salvation....saving faith works,as Christ works in us!

How can you make your election sure if you are not a factor in your election? You can "play" Christian all your life, but if God did not elect you, you are flat out of luck in your system.

And yes, I know I am elect because I have believed on Christ. I do not have to maintain my salvation, I am preserved by Christ. If you truly believe you are made a new creature, you are born again of incorruptable seed, you cannot lose your salvation.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman,

And yes, I know I am elect because I have believed on Christ. I do not have to maintain my salvation, I am preserved by Christ. If you truly believe you are made a new creature, you are born again of incorruptable seed, you cannot lose your salvation.

Welcome to the biblical side winman:thumbsup: This brief moment of clarity should be saved to your favorites!

You had to make a calvinistic statement here to describe salvation:tongue3:

6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: [/QUOTE]

Just like arminians in prayer, who must ask God if It be possible He would save their family and friends....you state That when God begins a work in one of His elect, he works in them,until the day of Christ....Calvin could not have said it much better....:applause:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Winman,


Welcome to the biblical side winman:thumbsup: This brief moment of clarity should be saved to your favorites!

You had to make a calvinistic statement here to describe salvation:tongue3:

6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: [/QUOTE]

Just like arminians in prayer, who must ask God if It be possible He would save their family and friends....you state That when God begins a work in one of His elect, he works in them,until the day of Christ....Calvin could not have said it much better....:applause:

I dont think you need to rub it in Icono, it is just blessed to hear a brother make that claim & I believe heaven applauded & cheered! :thumbs:

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

I posted...

then the scriptures I posted make a good case for God giving them enough spiritual enlightenment that they can make a heartfelt choice for Gods option, rather than choosing any of the other counterfiets that might be popular.in thier culture.

And you said...

This theory is completely bogus...and I believe you might be one of the few who would even come up with this strange notion

Note that what we are refering to here is a large quantity passages of scripture, that I posted for you, and not commentary from me. I simply posted scriptures.

And you..in essence.. are opting to ignore them, and, rather, simply call those scriptures a "strange notion"

The scriptures I posted are compelling, relevant, and worthy of consideration. Yet you flippantly dismiss them.

Are you SURE you dont heed your Calvinism over the scriptures?

 

[DHK]

Winman,
All calvinists would agree that when someone believes it is only because God has allowed them to...why do you think this strange?

Just out of curiosity,
When you (or someone) believes and then decides they want to have a cup of coffee, is it only because God allows them to have a cup of coffee, or did they make that decision of their own free will? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[JesusFan]

Faith has not been predetermined for man, but a promise has been put in place for all His creatures before the foundation of the world and he who hears the truth in these words should be declaring that God is not willing that any should perish and whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely :

2Peter 3:9;

(2Pe 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Rev 22:17-19;

(Rev 22:17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

(Rev 22:18) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

(Rev 22:19) And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Through the promises of God all men will be drawn (John 12:32)

(Joh 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

…and all men (In His perfect work of creation) are commanded to seek and not without purpose, (a genuine offer of grace through faith for all His creatures) again, for all God ways are judgment (Deut 32:4) and that is not possible without the true condition of creaturely volition to respond to the truth of the promise, or not.

(Deu 32:4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

The invitation of grace through faith is real and extends to all (1Jn 2:2).

(1Jn 2:2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

God’s nature does not change. God’s creatures were made with God-given free will and that has not changed. God’s creatures do change, they are converted, and only by the influence of the Holy Spirit can they do so by the free gift of grace enlightening the heart which calls for a response of faith.” Without God we cannot, without us God will not.”

just a couple of Questions for you on this subject...

just WHAT happened to man at fall of Adam?
Are we now born into original Sin state, depraived/dead or "just" hurt/marred/scarred?

do we actually even have the means now within our sin natures to 'freely' respond to the Gospel?

Does God HAVE to do anything extra grace wise apart from the Gospel being taught than?

Thanks!

 

[JesusFan]

Just out of curiosity,
When you (or someone) believes and then decides they want to have a cup of coffee, is it only because God allows them to have a cup of coffee, or did they make that decision of their own free will? :smilewinkgrin:

Well...

One for you to answer!

Who has ULTIMATE say in what happens in the Universe, our lives etc

God or man?

Who has FINAL say in all things, including salvation

God or man?

Whoever has "final call" would than really be God!

To answer your question...

You chose to drink that brand of coffee, God knew which one you would select, as that dfalls under his "permissive: will for your life!

 

[DHK]

Well...

One for you to answer!

Who has ULTIMATE say in what happens in the Universe, our lives etc

God or man?

I chose my coffee, not God.

To answer your question...

You chose to drink that brand of coffee, God knew which one you would select, as that dfalls under his "permissive: will for your life!

It was only God's omniscience, not God's pre-determined will.
I still chose what kind of coffee I wanted.
I also chose to accept or reject Christ.

 

[Benjamin]

just a couple of Questions for you on this subject...

just WHAT happened to man at fall of Adam?

Are we now born into original Sin state, depraived/dead or "just" hurt/marred/scarred?

We are separated from God. Read post #39 as to why and how. Please Note: My opening statement grants that God is the influencing agent.

do we actually even have the means now within our sin natures to 'freely' respond to the Gospel?

Creaturely volition is a must for there to be Truth in His words. Did you not understand the ways/attributes of God I spoke of from Deut 32:4? How could we not have the ability to respond and all the scriptures, Divine judgment (God’s ways – Deut 32:4) and God’s love and promises for His creatures be True?

Do you understand the theological consequences of “Hard Determinism”? I advise you to look it up.

Does God HAVE to do anything extra grace wise apart from the Gospel being taught than?

God has provided light to all His creatures and none have an excuse not to respond to the actual/real true influences of Him, that response involves love for the truth which brings faith. There is no "extra" for a pre-selected few, as if the rest is without truth, God’s grace is sufficient for all, His offer is genuine and true for every man that comes into the world.

Thanks!

Welcome

 

[quantumfaith]

We are separated from God. Read post #39 as to why and how. Please Note: My opening statement grants that God is the influencing agent.



Creaturely volition is a must for there to be Truth in His words. Did you not understand the ways/attributes of God I spoke of from Deut 32:4? How could we not have the ability to respond and all the scriptures, Divine judgment (God’s ways – Deut 32:4) and God’s love and promises for His creatures be True?

Do you understand the theological consequences of “Hard Determinism”? I advise you to look it up.



God has provided light to all His creatures and none have an excuse not to respond to the actual/real true influences of Him, that response involves love for the truth which brings faith. There is no "extra" for a pre-selected few, as if the rest is without truth, God’s grace is sufficient for all, His offer is genuine and true for every man that comes into the world.





Welcome

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[JesusFan]

I chose my coffee, not God.

It was only God's omniscience, not God's pre-determined will.
I still chose what kind of coffee I wanted.
I also chose to accept or reject Christ.

We are in agreement that in things involving 'non spiritual" matters, the Lord has granted unto us limited" free will" we make real decisions that he already foresaw and forknew...

I am NOT a "hard determint" regarding salvation, But do believe that being reckoned 'dead" in ASdam, that we are not able to exercise faith ina positive sense being depraived, we are bound to make a free decision, but being a sinner will always be in the negative, to reject Christ...

Once God enables us to be able once again to freely choose yes or no both. we than can do as you believe, just have a step before we can get to that point!

Arminians call it prevelient grace...

 

[JesusFan]

We are separated from God. Read post #39 as to why and how. Please Note: My opening statement grants that God is the influencing agent.



Creaturely volition is a must for there to be Truth in His words. Did you not understand the ways/attributes of God I spoke of from Deut 32:4? How could we not have the ability to respond and all the scriptures, Divine judgment (God’s ways – Deut 32:4) and God’s love and promises for His creatures be True?

Do you understand the theological consequences of “Hard Determinism”? I advise you to look it up.



God has provided light to all His creatures and none have an excuse not to respond to the actual/real true influences of Him, that response involves love for the truth which brings faith. There is no "extra" for a pre-selected few, as if the rest is without truth, God’s grace is sufficient for all, His offer is genuine and true for every man that comes into the world.





Welcome

NOT a "hard determint" though
Not really a Cal, as they say that being an Armraldist, not in their camp really!

just saying that we do NOT have that freedom in our wills in our own nature to accept/rejecyt Jesus, as being found sinners, will decide "no" all the time

Once the Lord grants us Grace to enable us to be able to really decide, than we can have actually yes/no decision to make
Those whom he allows this freedom be restored again will always decide yes, just as those with enabling will always 'free will" decide no

 

[Winman]

Winman,


Welcome to the biblical side winman:thumbsup: This brief moment of clarity should be saved to your favorites!

You had to make a calvinistic statement here to describe salvation:tongue3:

6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: [/QUOTE]

Just like arminians in prayer, who must ask God if It be possible He would save their family and friends....you state That when God begins a work in one of His elect, he works in them,until the day of Christ....Calvin could not have said it much better....:applause:

No, I believe in Preservation of the Saints, you believe in Perseverance of the Saints, they are quite different. You believe you must persevere, you must maintain your salvation. I believe I am preserved or kept by Christ. Perseverance and preservation do not mean the same thing, look in any dictionary.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Benamin posted...

God has provided light to all His creatures and none have an excuse not to respond to the actual/real true influences of Him, that response involves love for the truth which brings faith. There is no "extra" for a pre-selected few, as if the rest is without truth, God’s grace is sufficient for all, His offer is genuine and true for every man that comes into the world.

And here is scriptural support....

The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.

After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

Quote:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities -- his eternal power and divine nature -- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made heaven and earth and sea and everything in them. In the past, he let all nations go their own way. Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy."

Indeed, when Gentiles , who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness,

 

[JesusFan]

Winman,


Welcome to the biblical side winman:thumbsup: This brief moment of clarity should be saved to your favorites!

You had to make a calvinistic statement here to describe salvation:tongue3:



No, I believe in Preservation of the Saints, you believe in Perseverance of the Saints, they are quite different. You believe you must persevere, you must maintain your salvation. I believe I am preserved or kept by Christ. Perseverance and preservation do not mean the same thing, look in any dictionary.

We believe that we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit at conversion, and will be kept by power of God, as he iniated our salvation, and will also maintain it unto the end...

we will indeed perserve to the end of life, but that will be due to God enabling us to remain in Christ, as the Father placed us into jesus, and no one can take me out!

Not either or but both...

Those who are really elected/chosen by father to receive eternal life will show and confirm that by staying faithful unto the End, but will able to do si because of God placing/sealing the HS and resting our salavtion not based on our faith, but in the object of that, Jesus Christ!