“Real” Ability of all God’s Creatures to Respond to the Influence of Him/Seek Truth

[webdog]

Hello Webdog,
When anyone calls election a fairy tale.....it is not the gospel I know.
Open rebuke is better than secret love. AIC has answered and says we believe the same gospel. I still cannot get my mind around his post.
It is troubling to me.
Webdog.....do you think what he posted was Okay???
Or do you think in trying to resist what he believes is the calvinist teaching he has maybe missed the mark to a large extent?
Webdog.....do you and I believe the same gospel? When I post on a topic,do you resist the content violently? or do you sometimes agree , but do not want to say so? Sometimes I find some of your posts thought provoking...sometimes I think you are out to lunch.
You can saying anything to me webdog..I am okay with it.Be honest.

As he already explained, he stated your view of election to be a fairy tale. It is in regards to the mechanics of the SAME GOSPEL...your accusation is false.

Do we believe in the same Gospel? Do you believe we are saved by grace alone through faith alone? I do.

Do I resist the content of your theology violently? No need to as I once leaned towards your sideline...but I do disagree with your theology, and using your phraseology, I do think your logic, hermeneutic and interpretation to be "out to lunch".

The difference between you and I is the fact I do not question the salvation of those who do not believe identically to what I do.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK,

And Lot???
You never answered my questions.

Quote:
Was he backslidden? Does God have to use the exact word to spell it out for you?

If God uses a term in a consistent way...we should also. You are talking about a term that has the idea in scripture of oxen throwing off the yoke, a refractory shoulder. A returner...like a pig going back to the mud.

Was he backslidden when he offered his two virgin daughters to be raped all night by a mob of homosexuals? Or was he walking with the Lord?

Lot we are told had his righteous soul vexed......a word that indicates he was worn down by the wicked. perhaps not making the best judgements.
This might be the fruit he sowed to the flesh when earlier in life he lusted for that land, instead of trusting God's providence.


Was he backslidden when he still wanted to stay in Sodom, and the angels had to forcibly drag him out of the city, or was he walking with the Lord?
Again...he lingered in sodom....he did not have clarity of mind.....looks like Lot's wife was the backslider here....she turned back

Was he backslidden when he got drunk, and then committed incest with his two daughters and got them pregnant, or was he walking with the Lord?

Was he backslidden or not?

The account says that it was His daughters sin that schemed and planned the drunkenness and incest;

31And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

32Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

33And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

34And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

it is the daughters doing ,vs 33 says he perceived not....

So DHK....not only did nGod not use this term of Lot as you would like to do, but the evidence does not support you errent ideas.

 

[psalms109:31]

Seek God

i don't remember a time that I didn't want to seek God. The scripture says there is no one who seeks God so there must of been a time i didn't. I am sorry I'm not like most. I never was forced to go to church and learn about God. I was real young when I started going to church with my next door neighbor. My brothers didn't have go I went by my self with just my next door neighbor. I was always taught that God loved the world, and there was an opportunity for all people through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That Jesus is the only way to God.

It wasn't until 1993 when I started talking to people online that I heard about Calvinism and it was through a universalism-Calvinist i call him, i didn't come up with that stuff on my own. If you met me back then I was calling them stuff to back then. I starting talking to Calvinist and found out they were not Universalist.

I believe in the elect of God, that will bring an amount saved that didn't seek God, but God seek them through His elect that can not be counted. I am not going to argue that elect, not the believers, were just called to do a work that God already prepared them to do.

I believe in the elect and also those who God is including with them those who hear the Gospel of their salvation having believed. In other words i have not turned away from what God convinced me in my youth.

I was always taught that God loved the world, and there was an opportunity for all people through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That Jesus is the only way to God.

 

[Benjamin]

Iconoclast, I’ll get back to your other post when I get time, but for now:

looks like a reading problem on your part...where did I say

Quote:
is nothing more than your sorrowful way to proclaim God’s grace is only “really” offered to the specially pre-selected few

Try to follow the argument Iconoclast:

Benjamin:
Do you explain to a lost and searching person that the promise of grace isn't "real" to them unless they are elect and they may not have any hope because they may not have been pre-selected?* I would like to see how you handle a situation where a person is struggling with faith ...actually, on second thought I wouldn't and you wouldn't want to preach that dogma in front on me.

Originally posted by Iconoclast:

3] Jesus came to save a multitude of sinners

4] God seeing all mankind as fallen In Adam...has purposed to save a multitude of sinners In Christ.

5] The Father gives this multitude to the Son before the world was made.

6] The Son comes into the world in the form of a servant,to live and die for these chosen and elected persons.

1] I do not know if he is elect or not

2] He does not know if he is elect or not

4] if election comes up.....I stress that it is certain to come to pass..I tell Him the truth...do not hide it under a bushel.
5] I stress that the issue he needs to concern himself with..is His sin against a Holy God that has to be paid for.....He is responsible to repent and believe the gospel command.

6] If he tries to mock and scoff like those in 2 pet3...I do mention that God has not planned to save everyone, and unless God allows a sinner to repent and believe,,,they will die in their sins.......

7] I do not give Him false hope, I do not give him no hope.....just point out that the only Hope is In Jesus...not remaining in Adam.

Response by Benjamin:
Tell me Iconoclast did you lie to your children when you put them to bed at night and tell them that Jesus loves them or did you tell them your “bible truth” that you hope they are one of the pre-selected few?

It’s a legitimate question Iconoclast, and you revealed by your method of witnessing that you indeed use window dressings to cover up your “bible truth” that “you don’t know if they are elect or not” and “God has not planned to save everyone”. THAT means you believe THAT grace is limited to the “pre-selected few”… REALLY!

Put together the dots and you will see exactly why I said, “your sorrowful way to proclaim God’s grace is only “really” offered to the specially pre-selected few”

Your presentation of the Gospel and communicating is full of deceit, you clearly show you are not up front with your witnessing above unless they scoff at you, then you proclaim that you will lay it on them that basically/practically they DO have an excuse not to believe because of your warped belief that God might not have pre-selected them as elect. BUT that’s not what the Bible says, the Bible says all God ways are judgment, that none have an excuse, that the offer of grace extends to all His creatures AND He is Truth in this matter and all matters. All this is covered in the OP but instead of following an argument you want to play games of circular arguments. (You say, “Where did I proclaim pre-selection/fore-election?!?” ) Or is it that you struggle with the word “real”?

Now read my final reply below to your example of witnessing, note your deception through the window dressing, (do you know what I mean by window dressing?) and note the relevance of the question of whether or not you would lie to your own children or tell them your “bible truth” and hope that they are pre-selected. What if they “tried to mock or scoffed at you”? Is it then they get your “bible truth” about election? I’m sorry if you can not see the deceit in “your ways” and how it is rooted in lie after lie all to hold on to and support your false manmade doctrine. Answer the question. Do you have a double standard or not?

Benjamin:
The Gospel is not limited to a “multitude” of “pre-chosen and elected persons” it is offered for “whosoever will” believe. You were very careful to window dress how you would preach to the lost while cleverly disguising your doctrine although strangely you certainly have no problem announcing the “Doctrine of Pre-Selected Grace” here in an open forum, but supposedly you would not directly point to your believe that some have not been pre-selected and thereby have no hope, but I suspect *#6 reveals to me everything I need to know about how quickly you would turn on a person who was struggling with their faith and gave you a little static. I give the lost “real” hope because I tell them of the truth of a loving God's promise made to all His creatures, no matter if they mock, scoff or whatever.

I told my children the truth of our Loving God and “His way” of offering forgiveness for whosoever will believe His Truth. I didn’t have to hold anything back or disguise my belief; I put it all on the table for whosoever I am witnessing to. Friend, God does not have a double standard!

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

AIC.....I still cannot fully process this.....I will try and do better, but this is hard for me to grasp.....I will have to think this over.....alot.

Oh, C'mon Iconoclast. Gimmie a break. Quit with the grandstanding.

I did not use any words that are beyond your understanding. Nothing I posted is too "deep" for you, or "over your head".

Its absolutly clear as a bell regarding what I am my posting to you on this thread.

Because of what the scriptures teach, I do not believe that the view of "election/predestination" that you hold to is true. God does not "elect" certain "luck ones" for salvation as you believe, while "electing" all the other "unlucky" ones to hell, as you believe..

You think I am promoting error in my view of election...not the bible teaching of it?
What do you do with all the teaching on election AIC? What or how can you explain it that matches any verse on election??

God has elected to save some people. Those ones are the "whosoever wills". He is not going to save the "whosoever wonts".

Every person that comes into the world recieves "Light" that they can heed, and be saved, or reject and be lost. That "Light" of course, is the Lord Jesus Christ.

There are no "lucky" ones who get to go to heaven because they were "previously selected", while the "unlucky" ones burn...as you clearly promote.

I hope you can "fully process" that. I dont think I can make it any simpler for you.

God bless.

 

[Iconoclast]

WEBDOG,
Good response...

As he already explained, he stated your view of election to be a fairy tale. It is in regards to the mechanics of the SAME GOSPEL...your accusation is false.

This was not the case in post 171 however, which I first responded to.

which was this;

We actually dont even think in terms of being "elected" or "non elected" simply because nobody is *preordained* to be *elected* for salvation, and nobody is *preordained* to not be *elected*

That is the stuff of fairy tales. Every person who comes into the world has the oportunity to respond to the "Light" they are given...either acceptably, resulting in the gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ, or choosing to reject it.

Thats just the way it is, according to the scriptures of course.

Do you see it now ?.....this is before he said my view was off.

You cannot just dismiss this statement, or say that this is acceptable..at least I cannot.
That is why I say he has gone overboard. I offer a challenge to him because this is a severe statement on his part that he needs to address. [not necessarily to me, as I do not expect him , or several others here to be in agreement at this time.] Webdog at the time being we do not see much eye to eye. That is understandable things being what they are.
You get nervous when I raise a question about where someone stands in reference to the truth of the gospel. we cannot see hearts, just the posts.
if I posted something strange about the trinity tomorrow I would expect you to challenge me point blank about where I stood.
The purpose of God in election includes Jesus being the elect Servant. this is not a light secondary issue to just brush off.

 

[Iconoclast]

Benjamin,

Your presentation of the Gospel and communicating is full of deceit, you clearly show you are not up front with your witnessing above unless they scoff at you, then you proclaim that you will lay it on them that basically/practically they DO have an excuse not to believe because of your warped belief that God might not have pre-selected them as elect.

It might seem deceitful to you because it is the biblical teaching. With your pollyanna view anything that is biblically balanced would seen deceitful.
The things I listed you still cannot process...so you keep re-wording my clear statements to say what i did not say......your connecting the dots......is in reality the part you cannot understand, so naturally it is evil calvinism and calvinists.....ruining all the good parts of the gospel.
I am very upfront with my witnessing....and I speak the truth without re-inventing it.

then you proclaim that you will lay it on them that basically/practically they DO have an excuse not to believe because of your warped belief that God might not have pre-selected them as elect

Not only are unbelievers without excuse, but they cannot believe unless God allows them to. Have you ever pointed that out to someone,Benjamin.....
no of course not. Your evidentialism form of apologetic will not allow you to state that even if the conversation goes that way.....so much for your statement about salvation being all of the Lord.
I do thank you for offering your understanding...or lack of the same.

here is an example from your post....

It’s a legitimate question Iconoclast, and you revealed by your method of witnessing that you indeed use window dressings to cover up your “bible truth” that “you don’t know if they are elect or not” and “God has not planned to save everyone”. THAT means you believe THAT grace is limited to the “pre-selected few”… REALLY!

What I have posted is clear to anyone who reads it as posted.You have a chip on your shoulder that does not impress me.
Several times I have posted that God's elect are a multitude, that is what I believe because it is the biblical teaching.....you keep changing my words to a preselected few..I never said that. That is your rebellion against the truth that makes you say that,as you do.
You can disagree...but i will speak for myself if you do not mind. And even if you do mind. your re-wording my statements and attributing sinister motives to me is a concession on your part,that unless you proceed this way, you cannot feel good about your point of view.

 

[webdog]

This was not the case in post 171 however, which I first responded to.

which was this;

Nothing changed from that post to his first...you just approached the first with your presupposition.

You cannot just dismiss this statement, or say that this is acceptable..at least I cannot.

Odd...because I knew exactly what he was getting at. So based on your action, if you come with your presuppositions in tow, it is THEN you are allowed to question the salvation of others? You never addressed the Gospel question...do we believe in the same Gospel?

That is why I say he has gone overboard. I offer a challenge to him because this is a severe statement on his part that he needs to address. [not necessarily to me, as I do not expect him , or several others here to be in agreement at this time.]

I think the grandstanding comment of a fellow poster would fit in well here

Webdog at the time being we do not see much eye to eye. That is understandable things being what they are.

You are right...I would never question your salvation based on your soteriology. You should employ the same.

You get nervous when I raise a question about where someone stands in reference to the truth of the gospel. we cannot see hearts, just the posts.

Nervous?!? :laugh: You are funny!

if I posted something strange about the trinity tomorrow I would expect you to challenge me point blank about where I stood.

If by "challenge" you mean ask for clarification, certainly. If by "challenge" you mean start with a false presupposition and blast your salvation...certainly not.

The purpose of God in election includes Jesus being the elect Servant. this is not a light secondary issue to just brush off.

...and nowhere did AIC "brush off" this fact. It was invented in your head.

 

[JesusFan]

As he already explained, he stated your view of election to be a fairy tale. It is in regards to the mechanics of the SAME GOSPEL...your accusation is false.

Do we believe in the same Gospel? Do you believe we are saved by grace alone through faith alone? I do.

Do I resist the content of your theology violently? No need to as I once leaned towards your sideline...but I do disagree with your theology, and using your phraseology, I do think your logic, hermeneutic and interpretation to be "out to lunch".

The difference between you and I is the fact I do not question the salvation of those who do not believe identically to what I do.

Well...

NONE of us are inspired as Apostle paul was, so have to understand it "as through a dark glass dimly" in some reagrds here...

believe we can state that our "particular" system way of understanding Gospel, Bible better than others ways to understand/inperprete word of God, but NOT exclusive/only way!

Good question that you posed here..

Do we all agree that both Cals/Arms teach/preach same jesus and Gospel, just disagree in specifics of Soltierlogy?

 

[Alive in Christ]

JesusFan...

Good question that you posed here..

Do we all agree that both Cals/Arms teach/preach same jesus and Gospel, just disagree in specifics of Soltierlogy?

Yes. Absolutely.

Although I am not sure Iconoclast would agree, unfortunetly.

 

[DHK]

DHK,

The account says that it was His daughters sin that schemed and planned the drunkenness and incest;

So it does, but Lot didn't oppose it. He did not have to get drunk. Nor did he have to engage in sex willingly. To put it bluntly, in a court of law I do not believe a charge of rape by his daughters would hold up.

Secondly you have avoided completely Lot's horrid action of offering his two virgin daughters to be molested all night long by a mob of homosexuals. Was this the Godly thing to do? Or was it the carnal and backslidden thing to do?

 

[Amy.G]

Lot is our example to keep company with moral people.

1 Corinthians 15:33 Be not deceived: evil companions corrupt good morals.


Lot chose to live in a godless society and suffered for it.

 

[MB]

Originally Posted by MB
Iconoclast;
Scripture that was written to the Jews doesn't apply to Gentiles.

This is a false idea MB......the scriptures are for all men.
The covenant of grace is for jew and gentile
The 10 commandments apply to all men
The whole bible is for all men....



The Jews were elect but not to Salvation

Election is to salvation.....there was a national election in that God was going to preserve the godly line through that nation.....but it was only the ELECT remnant that were saved.

they were chosen to be a people of God.

yes they were...I just started a new thread about this...the greening of the church thread.

Wrong election. Paul is the apostel to the Gentiles Peter only went to one Gentile we know of. What he wrote was addressed to the Jews.
MB

Originally Posted by MB http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1702500 / post1702500
Iconoclast;
Scripture that was written to the Jews doesn't apply to Gentiles.

This is a false idea MB......the scriptures are for all men.

Yet Salvation is only for a preselect few. LOL scripture is even for those who can't understand it . You don't make a lot of sense.

The covenant of grace is for jew and gentile
The 10 commandments apply to all men
The whole bible is for all men....

Yet for those who might believe cannot be saved because they are not elect

Election is to salvation.....there was a national election in that God was going to preserve the godly line through that nation.....but it was only the ELECT remnant that were saved.

how can you be so sure with out biblical proof? Did some spirit tell you this or was it it written in your doctrine

they were chosen to be a people of God.

yes they were...I just started a new thread about this...the greening of the church thread.

Wrong election. Paul is the apostel to the Gentiles Peter only went to one Gentile we know of. What he wrote was addressed to the Jews.
The Jews were elect but not to Salvation

Election is to salvation.....

Not according to scripture.

there was a national election in that God was going to preserve the godly line through that nation.....but it was only the ELECT remnant that were saved.

You mean some of the elect died

they were chosen to be a people of God. They were not chosen to Salvation and neither was anyone else. If they were then you should be able to show that with scripture.

yes they were...I just started a new thread about this...the greening of the church thread.

Wrong election. Paul is the apostel to the Gentiles Peter only went to one Gentile we know of. What he wrote was addressed to the Jews.

That was all part of God's plan...there is one new man in Christ now!

There are lot's of new men in Christ they come to Him everyday
MB

 

[JesusFan]

So it does, but Lot didn't oppose it. He did not have to get drunk. Nor did he have to engage in sex willingly. To put it bluntly, in a court of law I do not believe a charge of rape by his daughters would hold up.

Secondly you have avoided completely Lot's horrid action of offering his two virgin daughters to be molested all night long by a mob of homosexuals. Was this the Godly thing to do? Or was it the carnal and backslidden thing to do?

Doesn't the Bible really teach in this that we still ALL have our "old man" Flesh nature withus until either death/rapture/Second Coming of Christ, whichever to us happens first?

 

[Iconoclast]

[/COLOR]
Yet Salvation is only for a preselect few.

Who says salvation is for a preselected few?

5And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

Here is your "preselected few". Would be nice to consult the bible before posting in ignorance.

LOL scripture is even for those who can't understand it .

MB...again...instead of laughing out loud...maybe you could have read this:

47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Looks like the scripture is for all men here MB....do not intend to ruin your lol!You don't make a lot of sense.


The Jews were elect but not to Salvation
they were chosen to be a people of God. They were not chosen to Salvation and neither was anyone else. If they were then you should be able to show that with scripture.

I would answer this unbiblical thought, but then Webdog will get mad at me
You might want to consider that christians have always believed in election



Wrong election. Paul is the apostel to the Gentiles Peter only went to one Gentile we know of. What he wrote was addressed to the Jews.

This is why dispensational thought is to be rejected


Then we have this gem....

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

Election is to salvation.....there was a national election in that God was going to preserve the godly line through that nation.....but it was only the ELECT remnant that were saved.


how can you be so sure with out biblical proof? Did some spirit tell you this or was it it written in your doctrine

they were chosen to be a people of God

Without biblical proof??? I could cut and paste half the bible here.
some spirit??? The Holy Spirit reveals truth to believers, even the truth of the covenant:

14The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.[/QUOTE

]

 

[Iconoclast]

Lot is our example to keep company with moral people.

1 Corinthians 15:33 Be not deceived: evil companions corrupt good morals.


Lot chose to live in a godless society and suffered for it.

:applause::type:

 

[DHK]

Lot is our example to keep company with moral people.

1 Corinthians 15:33 Be not deceived: evil companions corrupt good morals.


Lot chose to live in a godless society and suffered for it.

Yes, he chose to live a carnal life.
The result of his choice was a backslidden life.
He did not lose his salvation though he was carnal and backslidden. God declared him a just man, a righteous man.
Yet he could not rewrite the history books that he had still offered his two virgin daughters to a mob of homosexuals. There is no more despicable act that could be recorded in the Bible that is done by a believer than that one. And yet some call it a "Godly act"?? No it was ungodly, carnal, backslidden? Are you really willing to say that he was Godly when he offered his daughters to be abused all night by homosexuals. Or was he backslidden living in carnality? Which is it? There is only one of those two choices available.

 

[jbh28]

Yet for those who might believe cannot be saved because they are not elect

straw man and you know it. Nobody will believe and not be saved because they are not elect.

Election is to salvation.....

Not according to scripture.

2 Thess 2:13 "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. "

 

[JesusFan]

straw man and you know it. Nobody will believe and not be saved because they are not elect.



2 Thess 2:13 "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. "

seems that some of us here on BB just refuse to admit that its better to have our election based in, upon the Will and Plan of God than based upon ourselves making the "right decision!"

 

[Benjamin]

Benjamin,
You list 25 fine verses speaking of men...needing to seek the Lord.
Some are addressed to believers, some to unbelievers. you say this;


Quote: Benjamin from the OP:
I have no argument against that salvation is all of God, but would like to hear what others believe regarding whether man (all men) truly has/have the (real) ability to freely seek and grow in faith, granted within the condition that God is the influencing agent.

Iconoclast:
All men are responsible to seek and worship God.
God says they do not seek Him...no..not one....
I notice these verses from psalm 14...quoted in Romans 3 indicate a problem.
and I notice they did not make your list of seeking verses in your OP.


Quote:
1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

So.....God says He looked down to see if there were any who seek...and there were none.God says there were none...yet he commands us to seek Him? Both are true and yet when you say salvation is all of God..then reject election by God....this is where you start with a wrong premise, the attack others who see the biblical teaching!




Benjamin from the OP: I will start by presenting scripture that commands men to seek the Lord, then the argument which brought up the above question,

...Benjamin from the OP:
finally my argument that men must freely respond

Iconocalsy:
Men cannot freely respond...without God....
you say without God's influence as if man just needs a little help,yet you try to word it ironically as you accuse me of doing

to God’s influences to receive


His promise of grace to all on the condition

There is no promise to "all"....on any condition
There are promises to everyone believing
There are promises to Those who hunger and thirst for righteousness
there are promises to those who repent

Those promises are freely given...not based on any condition in man.


Paul says it this way;

Quote:
15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16To reveal his Son in me,





of “real” faith which necessarily relies on “real” creaturely volition.

Wrong.......we are saved by, or through faith......never because of faith.

The creatures volition is bound by sin...if we relied upon it we would all perish in our sins.

If the Spirit of God wasn’t in the world no one would seek Him, no one could seek Him, but God in love provided a way for us to know Him, He put His Word into the world and showed it true through the sacrifice of His Son. God is Truth and He put His Truth in the world to give light of that Truth to all His creatures.

You present one passage in a feeble attempt to support your “must fit” doctrine and claim to have refuted the 25+ passages that command men to seek the Lord God, as if all the other words from God are void and without truth in the matter. In your “proof text” God is chastising fools, men who are doing wicked things. The LORD “looked” down; God knows all things without enquiry, but He speaks after the manner of men, He is reproving those who are opposed to Him and DO NOT seek Him.

To prove my prior point about God’s ways being judgment and this judgment being Truth (Deut 32:4)) one simply needs to read the next verse and understand the question to understand the meaning of the “one” passage you attempt to twist into supporting your doctrine and in essence put you in the same camp as the fools who are saying God’s words to seek Him are not true. Psalms 4:4 “Have all the workers of inequity no knowledge?” If you answer “Yes” to that question you are denying God’s ways of judgment being of truth!

Yet, you are so blinded by your doctrine that you do not see the fallacy in your words that rightly declare that all men are responsible to seek Him while at the same time declaring that none can. Your Mo is to say you present "bible truth" while you disregard the rest of scripture and all reason in your argument.


Salvation is all of God our Creator, He did the work, He made the sacrifice, He put the Mediator in place, He provided the light that giveth light to the whole world, He provided a way for us to obtain the ability to respond to His influences and He is the Judge of that response. God did all this in Truth because He is Truth. God did it all and this does not exclude the ability of man to have volition.

So what does our God of Truth judge us on? Well, if He judged us on this ability/volition to be perfect and good we would all fall short. So in His love He judges us on our response to the light, the truth which He gave, the influence that He puts into the world, on our love for the truth, our faith in Jesus Christ which is able to cover our sins. God gives us grace through faith in His Son and God does all this in Truth because He is Truth.

Does our faith have to be real/truth? Can our faith be true if we do not have the real/true ability to give it? Does the light that God gives the world give real/true light? Is God’s influence real /true? Does our response of faith to His influence have to be real/true? Does our love of the Truth have to be real/true for us to grow in faith? Is God’s way of judgment based on anything other than the Truth that He provided grace through faith for whosoever will believe His Truth? The answer to all these questions is YES God is Truth!

Can God’s judgment be in Truth if He really didn’t give each and every one of His creatures the ability to respond in truth??? The answer to this question is a resounding, NO! Why? BECAUSE HE IS “TRUTH”!

From the beginning, the Liar in this world would have us believe that if we gained knowledge of good and evil we could be as gods. He attempts to reason with us that God words are not true. But God has showed us, each and every one of us so that we are without excuse, that with this ability of knowledge that we are not perfect and will be separated from Him because of our falling short of perfection. Does any of this exclude the fact that man would have knowledge and volition from beginning of creation? No, it goes to show the ability to choose is there. The truth is that God said, “let us reason together”. That is what He is doing in your “proof text”.

The truth is that God created all His creatures in love. The truth is that God in His wisdom had planned to put His light, Jesus Christ the Word, into world the world as an influence to reason with us in our knowledge. And the truth is that our Holy Loving God provided real grace through real faith. This is not possible without real creaturely volition. To say otherwise is theological fatalism.

Salvation is all of God; creaturely volition/the ability of man to love the truth/to have faith, testifies to how powerful He (with the attributes of Good, Love, Truth) is.

It is a totally fatalistic theology to suggest that God has fore-determined every response that every one of His creatures will make whether it be good or evil. To hold to Determinism one reveals a lack of faith in the attributes of God to be able to influence His creatures. The sad part is that the determinist often begins on a quest which results in what appears to be an attempt at assassination of His character and a quest of attributing evil to Him.