greening of the church pt3

[Iconoclast]

4Ye -- ye have seen that which I have done to the Egyptians, and I bear you on eagles' wings, and bring you in unto Myself.

5`And now, if ye really hearken to My voice, then ye have kept My covenant, and been to Me a peculiar treasure more than all the peoples, for all the earth [is] Mine;
6and ye -- ye are to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation: these [are] the words which thou dost speak unto the sons of Israel.'

God's basic call was to a mission,to a task...
What was he calling them for,and what was he calling them to?

God was engaged in a redemptive task in the world,and he was calling a people who would give their lives to join Him in His redemptive mission.
Thus God's basic call was to mission, not a call to receive something or to accept something.
Do you agree with this?

 

[quantumfaith]

4Ye -- ye have seen that which I have done to the Egyptians, and I bear you on eagles' wings, and bring you in unto Myself.

5`And now, if ye really hearken to My voice, then ye have kept My covenant, and been to Me a peculiar treasure more than all the peoples, for all the earth [is] Mine;
6and ye -- ye are to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation: these [are] the words which thou dost speak unto the sons of Israel.'

God's basic call was to a mission,to a task...
What was he calling them for,and what was he calling them to?

God was engaged in a redemptive task in the world,and he was calling a people who would give their lives to join Him in His redemptive mission.
Thus God's basic call was to mission, not a call to receive something or to accept something.
Do you agree with this?

Yes, I do agree, we are called to be missional. You might, stress might, enjoy the book.

The Mission of God: Unlocking the Bibles Grand Narrative. Christopher J H Wright.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, I do agree, we are called to be missional. You might, stress might, enjoy the book.

The Mission of God: Unlocking the Bibles Grand Narrative. Christopher J H Wright.

Thanks for the book reference quantum....

I had picked up this book for 1$ at a second hand store...it was the best 1$ I have spent in awhile,lol..
Mr. Edge develops 3 or 4 main ideas that I think are worth the thought,and the read.....I am trying to break it into parts to be more managable...and also to share the progression....
I found each of these "parts" significant.....I think you will see why in a few posts!

 

[ituttut]

4Ye -- ye have seen that which I have done to the Egyptians, and I bear you on eagles' wings, and bring you in unto Myself.

5`And now, if ye really hearken to My voice, then ye have kept My covenant, and been to Me a peculiar treasure more than all the peoples, for all the earth [is] Mine;
6and ye -- ye are to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation: these [are] the words which thou dost speak unto the sons of Israel.'

God's basic call was to a mission,to a task...
What was he calling them for,and what was he calling them to?

God was engaged in a redemptive task in the world,and he was calling a people who would give their lives to join Him in His redemptive mission.
Thus God's basic call was to mission, not a call to receive something or to accept something.
Do you agree with this?

For clarification, are you saying God is now talking to you, when we all today are seen to Him to be Gentiles? If you are saying you are Israel, are you also saying you are under the Law that God gave to His people?

 

[Iconoclast]

For clarification, are you saying God is now talking to you, when we all today are seen to Him to be Gentiles? If you are saying you are Israel, are you also saying you are under the Law that God gave to His people?

Hello Ituttut,
These 5 threads are excerpts from the book the Greening of the Church written 40 years ago by a departed saint named Findley Edge.

are you saying God is now talking to you, when we all today are seen to Him to be Gentiles

Sounds as if you are believing in dispensationalism. I was taught that also, but have followed what I understand to be a clearer path.

Simply stated.....If we as gentiles lived before the cross and wanted to worship the true and Living God, we would have to become jewish proselytes.

After the cross the bible teaches that God has made of the two, one new man in Christ.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

So believers today are the Israel of God...either Jew or gentile all are one by virtue of our union with Christ....The Servant of the Lord...the true Israel of God. see isa 49:1-8
All men are under the ten commandments.....Christians have them written in the heart in the new covenant.

We are not lawless as Christians, but rather Image Bearers.
We obey out of love, because we are saved
Not out of fear,in order to be saved.
OT Israel was a theocracy, until the cross. Those ceremonial and judicial laws from the theocracy have been completed since the reality has come in Jesus. The ten Commandments are still in effect as they pre-dated the mosaic laws of the theocracy.
Many quote gal. or rom , trying to say we are ......no longer under law,but grace. But these verses in context were explaining to 1st century persons, that we are not still in the OT theocracy with its ceremonial sacrifices and laws which they were saying we still had to keep.....feast days, new moons,etc......
That being said we are not lawless...
if you read each of the 5 threads you will see where Mr.Edge was going.

If you have any follow up questions ,I will help if I can...there is much more to be said on this topic.

 

[ituttut]

Hello Ituttut,
These 5 threads are excerpts from the book the Greening of the Church written 40 years ago by a departed saint named Findley Edge.



Sounds as if you are believing in dispensationalism. I was taught that also, but have followed what I understand to be a clearer path.

Iconoclast you are right. I believe there is an Apostle to the Gentile, and He tells us He does have a dispensational gospel that was revealed to Him by Jesus Christ from heaven. Are we to discard scripture that will not fit into our belief?

Should we refuse to believe Saint Ananias (Acts 9:10-20)?

And by all means let's not forget II Peter 3:15 (and on), "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;"

Simply stated.....If we as gentiles lived before the cross and wanted to worship the true and Living God, we would have to become jewish proselytes.

Better put… as all today are considered Gentiles, and proselysation still goes on. We have choice in this matter. What scripture have you to verify, without contradiction, that Peter (before Acts 10) ever preached to a Gentile, or anyone else the Gospel of remission of sins through faith? How do you reconcile Acts 2:38, the Gospel of the Circumcised that you must repent and be water baptized for the remission of your sins. Can we not look around us and see there are those that do believe this necessary to be in the Kingdom that was (and still is) at hand? Did Peter know the Gospel of the Body of Christ before Christ Jesus revealed it to someone? Where in scripture can you find out about the Body of Christ? Who explains it to us now, and to those at that time?

Peter tells us that Paul has wisdom no other man had. Was any other Apostle, beside Paul allowed to tell us about the '"Body of Christ", the Rapture, or there is another Gospel than this, yet it is not another Gospel. James, Peter, John and the others in Jerusalem shook hands with Paul and Barnabas from the Christian church in Antioch, that they would only go to the circumcised, as we are told in Acts 15, and Galatians 2.

After the cross the bible teaches that God has made of the two, one new man in Christ.

Since the New is now available shouldn't we harmonize scripture and understand what Paul is saying? Aren't we told the One New Man includes both Israel and the Gentile? Does man know best and say God justifies the Jew, and the heathen in the same way? I believe what His Word says. Your doctrine contradicts Romans 3:29-31, "Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

So believers today are the Israel of God...either Jew or gentile all are one by virtue of our union with Christ....The Servant of the Lord...the true Israel of God. see isa 49:1-8
All men are under the ten commandments.....Christians have them written in the heart in the new covenant.

But doesn't the above scripture prove you wrong? How can you live, as you understand, under the Ten Commandments in the New Covenant? People lived under the Ten Commandments in the OLD Covenant. We do not live UNDER, but establish the law. If we are in the Body of Christ already, are we not Above the Law, in the New Man? We are already there with Him. There are some who choose to be in the Heavenlies with Him, and some who choose to be on the earth when Heaven comes down to earth So God can be (and we in Jesus Christ) with His Bride. This is in prophecy as we see in Revelation, chapter 2.

We are not lawless as Christians, but rather Image Bearers.
We obey out of love, because we are saved
Not out of fear,in order to be saved.
OT Israel was a theocracy, until the cross. Those ceremonial and judicial laws from the theocracy have been completed since the reality has come in Jesus. The ten Commandments are still in effect as they pre-dated the mosaic laws of the theocracy.

By what you say, I can identify on what foundation you are trying to lay on the foundation of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God; and the Lamb (Jesus) said He only came for HIS PEOPLE, those that believe they are UNDER THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, which you say you subscribe to. This is the foundation that Peter was laying down. For those that live under the Ten Commandments, are they not to observe the Sabbath day to keep it Holy? Do the vast majority of Baptists that say they live UNDER the Ten Commandments keep the Sabbath?

Many quote gal. or rom , trying to say we are ......no longer under law,but grace. But these verses in context were explaining to 1st century persons, that we are not still in the OT theocracy with its ceremonial sacrifices and laws which they were saying we still had to keep.....feast days, new moons,etc......
That being said we are not lawless...
if you read each of the 5 threads you will see where Mr.Edge was going.

If you have any follow up questions ,I will help if I can...there is much more to be said on this topic.

I do appreciate your offer for help to understand what a saved one that believes on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, showing what He believes. Being a Berean as I study the Bible, I find the input, and understanding of what God tells me to be of more urgent reading. May I please refer you back to His Word, which can be correctly interpreted when He will bring together, what He has divided, in order for us to Study to make Ourselves Approved in Christ Jesus? I walked the path (about 60 years) of contradictions that you are now on. I decided I had rather be in the Body of Christ, than to be with Israel when they go marching into that Kingdom that is still at hand.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast you are right. I believe there is an Apostle to the Gentile, and He tells us He does have a dispensational gospel that was revealed to Him by Jesus Christ from heaven. Are we to discard scripture that will not fit into our belief?

Should we refuse to believe Saint Ananias (Acts 9:10-20)?

And by all means let's not forget II Peter 3:15 (and on), "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;"

Better put… as all today are considered Gentiles, and proselysation still goes on. We have choice in this matter. What scripture have you to verify, without contradiction, that Peter (before Acts 10) ever preached to a Gentile, or anyone else the Gospel of remission of sins through faith? How do you reconcile Acts 2:38, the Gospel of the Circumcised that you must repent and be water baptized for the remission of your sins. Can we not look around us and see there are those that do believe this necessary to be in the Kingdom that was (and still is) at hand? Did Peter know the Gospel of the Body of Christ before Christ Jesus revealed it to someone? Where in scripture can you find out about the Body of Christ? Who explains it to us now, and to those at that time?

Peter tells us that Paul has wisdom no other man had. Was any other Apostle, beside Paul allowed to tell us about the '"Body of Christ", the Rapture, or there is another Gospel than this, yet it is not another Gospel. James, Peter, John and the others in Jerusalem shook hands with Paul and Barnabas from the Christian church in Antioch, that they would only go to the circumcised, as we are told in Acts 15, and Galatians 2.


Since the New is now available shouldn't we harmonize scripture and understand what Paul is saying? Aren't we told the One New Man includes both Israel and the Gentile? Does man know best and say God justifies the Jew, and the heathen in the same way? I believe what His Word says. Your doctrine contradicts Romans 3:29-31, "Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

But doesn't the above scripture prove you wrong? How can you live, as you understand, under the Ten Commandments in the New Covenant? People lived under the Ten Commandments in the OLD Covenant. We do not live UNDER, but establish the law. If we are in the Body of Christ already, are we not Above the Law, in the New Man? We are already there with Him. There are some who choose to be in the Heavenlies with Him, and some who choose to be on the earth when Heaven comes down to earth So God can be (and we in Jesus Christ) with His Bride. This is in prophecy as we see in Revelation, chapter 2.

By what you say, I can identify on what foundation you are trying to lay on the foundation of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God; and the Lamb (Jesus) said He only came for HIS PEOPLE, those that believe they are UNDER THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, which you say you subscribe to. This is the foundation that Peter was laying down. For those that live under the Ten Commandments, are they not to observe the Sabbath day to keep it Holy? Do the vast majority of Baptists that say they live UNDER the Ten Commandments keep the Sabbath?

I do appreciate your offer for help to understand what a saved one that believes on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, showing what He believes. Being a Berean as I study the Bible, I find the input, and understanding of what God tells me to be of more urgent reading. May I please refer you back to His Word, which can be correctly interpreted when He will bring together, what He has divided, in order for us to Study to make Ourselves Approved in Christ Jesus? I walked the path (about 60 years) of contradictions that you are now on. I decided I had rather be in the Body of Christ, than to be with Israel when they go marching into that Kingdom that is still at hand.

ituttut,
thanks for your response. i will offer only a quick response now as I must go back to work...but will get back to it later on....
Dispensational ideas divide the word.......I believe in a wrong way.Paul can be called an apostle to the gentiles, but he always went to synagouges first acts 13

As you in your response mention, they have different gospels for different times and peoples.
the verse in romans 3 I believe helps establish what i have started to offer you.
here is another verse for you to consider;

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

the gentiles were always meant to be part of the plan....

peter learned more of this when God gave him the vision of the clean and unclean animals

4But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,

5I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:

6Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

7And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.

8But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.

9But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

i will go over your last post point by point when i can.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast you are right. I believe there is an Apostle to the Gentile, and He tells us He does have a dispensational gospel that was revealed to Him by Jesus Christ from heaven. Are we to discard scripture that will not fit into our belief?

Paul does not say he has a special and different gospel for the gentiles
here is what he does say in romans 15
[QUOTEglory of God.

8Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: 9And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

10And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

11And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
]

He links the promise of the gentiles coming to faith to the covenant promise made to"the fathers".......the fathers.....were jewish

we are all one now. We are grafted into the olive tree....not a seperate tree.

Does your theology fit these scriptures?

28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Then you say this:

Should we refuse to believe Saint Ananias (Acts 9:10-20)?

We should believe him.....lets see what he actually said!

15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before
1] the Gentiles,
2]and kings,
3]and the children of Israel:

He did not have a seperate gospel for gentiles,,,,,then a seperate one for kings....and yet another one for jews!

Paul had unique gifts and knowledge of the scriptures that enabled him to pull out those scriptures that foretold of these days.

Where did he preach.... 20And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

What scripture have you to verify, without contradiction, that Peter (before Acts 10) ever preached to a Gentile, or anyone else the Gospel of remission of sins through faith

Jesus had told them the gospel would go first to the jew, then the samaritans, then the gentiles, and that is exactly the way it happened

Acts1 8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
1]jew
2]samaritan
3]gentile

How do you reconcile Acts 2:38, the Gospel of the Circumcised that you must repent and be water baptized for the remission of your sins. Can

That is the gospel period. It is not the gospel of the "circumcised"
All men are to repent and believe the gospel. Repentance is for all men

Anyone who says repentance is just a jewish doctrine is badly mistaken
[QUOTECan we not look around us and see there are those that do believe this necessary to be in the Kingdom that was (and still is) at hand?][/QUOTE]
The Kingdom is now...Jesus rules in the midst of His enemies now,until His enemies are made His footstool.

Since the New is now available shouldn't we harmonize scripture and understand what Paul is saying? Aren't we told the One New Man includes both Israel and the Gentile? Does man know best and say God justifies the Jew, and the heathen in the same way? I believe what His Word says. Your doctrine contradicts Romans 3:29-31, "Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

But doesn't the above scripture prove you wrong?

No. this scripture agrees with what I am saying exactly.

But doesn't the above scripture prove you wrong? How can you live, as you understand, under the Ten Commandments in the New Covenant? People lived under the Ten Commandments in the OLD Covenant

In the OT.the israelites had the commandments outwardly and were meant to internalize them. In the new testament they are placed in our heart at regeneration.

There are some who choose to be in the Heavenlies with Him, and some who choose to be on the earth when Heaven comes down to earth

What do you mean by this? how do they choose either or? who does this?

By what you say, I can identify on what foundation you are trying to lay on the foundation of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God; and the Lamb (Jesus) said He only came for HIS PEOPLE, those that believe they are UNDER THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, which you say you subscribe to.

His people are the Israel of God......God tells us who His people are
He came to His own and His own received Him not...
8Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. 10So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

Do the vast majority of Baptists that say they live UNDER the Ten Commandments keep the Sabbath?

Reformed Baptists do;

Chapter 19: Of the Law of God
1._____ God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience written in his heart, and a particular precept of not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; by which he bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
( Genesis 1:27; Ecclesiastes 7:29; Romans 10:5; Galatians 3:10, 12 )
2._____ The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables, the four first containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
( Romans 2:14, 15; Deuteronomy 10:4 )

3._____ Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth divers instructions of moral duties, all which ceremonial laws being appointed only to the time of reformation, are, by Jesus Christ the true Messiah and only law-giver, who was furnished with power from the Father for that end abrogated and taken away.
( Hebrews 10:1; Colossians 2:17; 1 Corinthians 5:7; Colossians 2:14, 16, 17; Ephesians 2:14, 16 )

7._____ As it is the law of nature, that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, be set apart for the worship of God, so by his Word, in a positive moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all men, in all ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven for a sabbath to be kept holy unto him, which from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ was changed into the first day of the week, which is called the Lord's day: and is to be continued to the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week being abolished.
( Exodus 20:8; 1 Corinthians 16:1, 2; Acts 20:7; Revelation 1:10 )

8._____ The sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering their common affairs aforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all day, from their own works, words and thoughts, about their worldly employment and recreations, but are also taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.
( Isaiah 58:13; Nehemiah 13:15-22; Matthew 12:1-13 )

 

[ituttut]

ituttut,
thanks for your response. i will offer only a quick response now as I must go back to work...but will get back to it later on....
Dispensational ideas divide the word.......I believe in a wrong way.Paul can be called an apostle to the gentiles, but he always went to synagouges first acts 13

Appreciate your reply Iconoclast. I like you have other functions to attend to, but going to work is not one of them, except when Mrs. ituttut (to me) tells me to do something useful for a change. I've been retired for over 26 years, but not always on the computer. It is another DO which is not listed on my Honey Do List.

As you in your response mention, they have different gospels for different times and peoples.
the verse in romans 3 I believe helps establish what i have started to offer you.
here is another verse for you to consider;
[/B]

the gentiles were always meant to be part of the plan....

Agree, as we can see in Ephesians 3:9

peter learned more of this when God gave him the vision of the clean and unclean animals

i will go over your last post point by point when i can

Don't mean this to be preaching, but what I see. Peter was not taught the dispensational gospel that was given to Paul. We know Peter did not understand what all the vision encompassed. We know after preaching to these heathen, the Gospel to the uncircumcised, Peter and those others of the apostolic church were amazed. They did not understand for Jesus had already began to reveal to Paul only, the understanding of the Grace of God, that Now did away with Man having any Work to do in order to Please God. Just as God was the first to shed blood for man, so did He do it again, but this time It Was His own everlasting blood.

Christ gave to Paul His Gospel to the Gentile, just as He, God had given to Moses the Law and Ordinances that the circumcised were to live by. Both of these Gospels, which are not other Gospels, came from the say source. God is the One that Justifies, and we are told exactly how He Justified His People, and how He justifies the Gentile.

Peter was ordered to go, and he obeyed without understanding, just like Noah, and Abram. We know God put the words into Peter's mouth, and had Peter speak the correct words to the Gentile Cornelius, and his household. Then God stopped Peter's tongue after he had given the Gospel to the Gentile, which Peter, any Apostle, Jesus Christ while on earth, John the Baptist, or any other seed of Abraham had ever done.

Before Damascus Road, after the Covenant began, first one had to be circumcised (including their proselytes), blood sacrifices, the Law of the Ten Commandments they are to live under. Then live under the Laws of Moses, and understand there are over 600 such made to apply to the Jews, and in these ordinances come Water Baptism, that is necessary, and peculiar to the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God never asked anyone else to make covenant with Him, or keep the Laws and ordinances they lived under. Was there not a secret shown to us, beginning on Damascus Road?

Just as God had Abram get away from his country, and family, so He also did with Saul/Paul. Moses was taught about an earthly everlasting life for His People, and Paul was given the Son of the Father, heavenly life of His Body.

I see you will have more to say, so I'll stop here before trying to figure out all that you may wish to discuss. We may wish to take a journey together to discuss what we find concerning this man Christ Jesus hand picked, and commissioned to go to BOTH THE Gentile, and The Jew, but to the Jew First we find out.

God knew His stiff-necked people would refuse Messiah, so He does as He says way in the past. "I'll make you jealous", He says. They broke the very first Law He gave to the People that He Chose for Himself for wife. She went whoring after other God's, worshiping of Idols. They were warned by God who said in so many words, don't mess around on me,Exodus 34:14, and others.

 

[Iconoclast]

Still working now...good we agree on the blood!:thumbs:
i will try to get back to this later tonight or tommorow....
also what do you think about what Findley Edge said in this book?

 

[Iconoclast]

ituttut,
Hello brother....hope you have been enjoying your retirement.Glad to see you have not retired from serving the Lord however:thumbsup:
What did you retire from? You are probably working harder now as a domestic slave with the honeydo list:laugh:
Let me ask you a question.You have perhaps heard many sermons over the years.....are there a few that stand out in your mind? what text was opened up? Are there any men who you heard who really seemed used of God in a powerful way? If so...when was it?
I have heard this taught also,when you said this;

Peter was not taught the dispensational gospel that was given to Paul. We know Peter did not understand what all the vision encompassed. We know after preaching to these heathen, the Gospel to the uncircumcised, Peter and those others of the apostolic church were amazed. They did not understand for Jesus had already began to reveal to Paul only, the understanding of the Grace of God, that Now did away with Man having any Work to do in order to Please God. Just as God was the first to shed blood for man, so did He do it again, but this time It Was His own everlasting blood.

itut,
I am sure they did not fully understand what Jesus had in mind as he taught them before and after the cross....I believe that is why God allowed the signs of an apostle to be done,and to guide the young churches before the word was complete. Acts11;1-18

or here from lk24

25Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
28And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.

29But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.

30And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.

31And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

32And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

Now that must have been some good study...lol

you say;

They did not understand for Jesus had already began to reveal to Paul only, the understanding of the Grace of God,

What verse or verses lead you believe that only Paul understood grace?

I see Peter say this
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
25But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

He might have been a little late to the party so to speak...but he seems to be up to speed here!

next;

Christ gave to Paul His Gospel to the Gentile, just as He, God had given to Moses the Law and Ordinances that the circumcised were to live by. Both of these Gospels, which are not other Gospels, came from the say source. God is the One that Justifies, and we are told exactly how He Justified His People, and how He justifies the Gentile.

I believe you are speaking of this section in Galatians 2
7But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles

9And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.


But a little further down Paul withstood Peter to his face;
11But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

12For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

14But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

15We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I believe paul was specially gifted to minister to the gentiles ..yes..but here he corrected Peter......because there is only one saving purpose now.
Acts 15 put an exclamation point on this!

7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

10Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

12Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

Itut......do you think it is possible that from among the early church, perhaps Paul was the best trained among the jewish christians to be a chosen instument by God? Not so much that the gospel was different, but perhaps some of the jewish christians were against the gentiles who were previously thought to be unclean?

next;

Before Damascus Road, after the Covenant began, first one had to be circumcised (including their proselytes), blood sacrifices, the Law of the Ten Commandments they are to live under.

the early jewish christians did not have to live under the ceremonial law after the cross.....if any did they were corrected....that is why Paul addresses the judiaziers., calling that another gospel..another of a different kind..false!

next:

God never asked anyone else to make covenant with Him, or keep the Laws and ordinances they lived under. Was there not a secret shown to us, beginning on Damascus Road?

The covenant was made with the seed singular which is Christ..and us in Him......jew and gentile

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The ceremonial law was never given to save;
21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
The idea of a heavenly people as compared to an earthly people I do not believe is the truth,even though I was first taught that idea in the scofield bible,and from the men at Dallas seminary....h
here is why I do not think that is the best view;

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[ituttut]

Number 1 due to length

He links the promise of the gentiles coming to faith to the covenant promise made to"the fathers".......the fathers.....were jewish

we are all one now. We are grafted into the olive tree....not a seperate tree.

Does your theology fit these scriptures?

Sure does. And if you allow, I will explain.

I believe what my Apostle tells me about the Body of Christ. "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together",Romans 8:17.

Didn't the branch (nation of Israel), break off? Won't another Nation/s of Gentiles be grafted in, and then so will Israel then be engrafted (BACK IN), just as James says? Peter tells his people the same thing in different words as to show they can now be saved just like the Gentile, i.e. the Nation of Israel, and then all Israel will be saved In That Day.

Isn't the Other Nation made up of all the Nations, excluding Israel? All the Nations will not be saved, but only those that believe on the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Those of the 12 Tribes (not those of today who are considered Gentiles) are justified differently than are we who choose to be in the Body of Christ with Him, and not on earth with Israel.

I see in your thinking it removes completely through faith, saying the Gentile is justified exactly like God's people who are justified by faith. Paul tells us in Hebrews chapter 11 how all before the Cross, and a few years later on Damascus Road, God kept His promise that He would make His Wife Jealous.

Why couldn't Abel, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, and all the others be justified just like you and me? They DID NOT KNOW THE NAME OF GOD, THE WORD, while they lived. The other strike against them was JESUS HAD NOT YET SHED HIS EVERLASTING SAVING BLOOD. Yet all those that before Jesus came, and shed His Blood, did after all on that last swing to hit a home run. They are being held until that time by believing their Father in heaven. What ever God told these people to believe, they did, and they every one had to do their OWN WORK, for that is what God required of them.

Is not our salvation today just as we are told? There is no work we can do ourselves to please Him. All we have to do today is not try to save ourselves, or do works thinking it will help us to be saved, or continue to be saved. He says accept the gift I have given, my only begotten Son. He says just believe me when I say believe on the name of Jesus Christ, and through his name you are justified.

When it is all said and done, the building will fit together, but not until what is revealed to us by the Wolf (of Benjamin) in Ephesians chapter one with emphasis on verses 9 and 10.

Then you say this:

We should believe him.....lets see what he actually said!

15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before
1] the Gentiles,
2]and kings,
3]and the children of Israel:

He did not have a seperate gospel for gentiles,,,,,then a seperate one for kings....and yet another one for jews!

Doesn't Paul say it is the same Gospel, yet another Gospel? Aren't we told through the faith of Jesus Christ that by "one Spirit are we all baptized into one body"; and through the spirit, we in The Body of Christ are builded together for an habitation of God. Are you contending that we are justified just as was David?

 

[ituttut]

Number 2

Per Iconoclast;1705384]aul had unique gifts and knowledge of the scriptures that enabled him to pull out those scriptures that foretold of these days Where did he preach.... 20And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Jesus had told them the gospel would go first to the jew, then the samaritans, then the gentiles, and that is exactly the way it happened

Of course He did tell them, but Paul was not among those you make reference to. But you are wrong that Peter, James, John, and the other's chosen ever ventured out of the confines of Israel's territory, until sometime after Acts chapter 8? All they had to offer to anyone was the Great Commission, and we know Acts 2:38 is included in that Great Commission. I just cannot bring myself to believe one is to receive remission of sins by being water baptized of one that had been filled with the Holy Ghost; and then (or afterwards) one has to receive remission of sins as found in Roman 3:19-26. I have faith that it is His Blood that God has justified me.

Do you realize that Paul was carrying that message to the world, that is Paul, just as you say did go first into the Synagogues and preached to those of Is4ael.We can see in Acts 15 where Peter had turned over the Headship of the dieing Jerusalem church to that certain James. James tells us at the time he wrote his book, He was still of the Grace of God, and is of Works iand Law. If we wish to be proselytes, then bay all means stick with James. I have chosen to be in The Body of Christ, as a Gentile. There is One Body, and One Spirit, and One calling of our Hope. One Lord, One Faith, and One Baptism, and there is One God and Father of all, above all, and through all, as well as in all. But we accept our Grace according to the measure of the Gift of Christ.

However we know the Apostles never left Jerusalem, or the confines of Judea. Not until sometime after Acts 8. The Apostles in Jerusalem could not carry out the Great Commission for scripture says to the JEW FIRST. The House of Israel still did not accept Messiah, so this Gospel of the Kingdom is at Hand still waits today.

So Saul/Paul did at first go to the Jew, and then to the Gentile. Paul says he is a Jew to the Jew, and with the Wisdom, and Knowledge that was given to him from heaven, he preached in the synagogues to those that did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. Those of the Jerusalem church stayed where they were told to stay, and preach Acts 2:28 to them, hoping they of Judah (not both Jew and Gentile) would accept The Son of God by faith, as we know they still went to the Temple, obeyed the Law and Ordinances, continuing to make blood sacrifice. Paul had a different gospel to the gentile, a different circumcision for the Gentile.

The Jew heard Paul, and what He preached to the Gentile. We see this in Acts 21, when he became a Jew as requested by James. Paul is a Jew and went as far as God would let him. But there is something we should take notice of. God would not let This Jew that is the Apostle to the Gentile do. God did not allow Paul to make a blood sacrifice.

Jesus had told them the gospel would go first to the jew, then the samaritans, then the gentiles, and that is exactly the way it happened

Acts1 8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
1]jew
2]samaritan
3]gentile

Did you notice that Paul is not there? Have you determined that All Israel accepted Messiah, and the Kingdom came, and all Gentiles will be servants of God's very own people? Isn't that really what you are saying? Why do some Christians that will not go to the Lake of Fire, wish to chance going through the tribulation? Can they be grabbed up by our Lord to be with Him before the Great Tribulation comes to His People as promised?

I did straddle for many years, wondering such things as, will I be here in the Tribulation to Pray Our Father which art in heaven … Give us this day our daily Bread … deliver us from evil. Or should I believe I would be raptured in my new Body while the claim jumper does what he destined to do?

 

[ituttut]

number 3

That is the gospel period. It is not the gospel of the "circumcised".

Then you must believe the gospel the gospel of The Kingdom is at hand was promised to the Gentile, and also the Jew? I don't believe scripture will bear this out. The Gentile can be a proselyte at that time, but never come to God on their own. These heathen accepted to be the servants of God's people, are relegated to be in the Outer Court of the Temple, i.e. until He says differently.

All men are to repent and believe the gospel. Repentance is for all men

Anyone who says repentance is just a jewish doctrine is badly mistaken

I have never said anything different.

ituttut: Can we not look around us and see there are those that do believe this necessary to be in the Kingdom that was (and still is) at hand?
Answers GE: The Kingdom is now...Jesus rules in the midst of His enemies now,until His enemies are made His footstool.
No. this scripture agrees with what I am saying exactly

Isn't that what I said? That Kingdom still has not come.

In the OT.the israelites had the commandments outwardly and were meant to internalize them. In the new testament they are placed in our heart at regeneration.

Not sure what you are saying. Acts and all after is just hogwash?

What do you mean by this? how do they choose either or? who does this?

Do we have free will to choose where you will to be on the earth with God's people, or can we be with Jesus Christ, as they come to worship Him?

His people are the Israel of God......God tells us who His people are
He came to His own and His own received Him not...
8Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. 10So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

They were not worthy (rulers) while Jesus was on earth, and neither were they after Pentecost. God then revealves His secret that He had hid.

Reformed Baptists do;

I believe every verse you have quoted, but I know WHO is my Sabbath. Weren't the Sabbath Days a Shadow of Christ? John 9:16 tells us "Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them." Did not Jesus do all of the Works, and fulfilled the Law? Did He then REST. Our Works and a keeping of The Law, or any Law never saved anybody. Could anyone really REST from His Work?

Paul wrote a Book to His People, and not to any Gentile, unless they wish to be a proselyte into that religion, which is the religion of the Circumcised. My Sabbath rest is always in me, not some day I try to keep, for I was never told to do so. We are told the Sabbath is made for man. He rested from His creation on the seventh day, and He gave it to man for a rest, if they saw fit to do so. But to His People He told them to keep that Seventh Day Holy, and also commanded them to also keep Other High Holy Sabbath Days. He never gave to me any such instructions, for I am not one of the off spring of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Some wish to observe Days, months or times; and I don't believe Christmas or Easter are Holy Days, for this is error on the part of man who came up with these to please the World.

A case can be made I known for a spiritual Israel for Gentiles today, but I don't believe that is the Mystery. I see the first invite to His people for the marriage of the Lamb to His sheep, but they did not come. Then we see the second invitation (after blood is shed), and all is now ready at Pentecost. But again the rulers refused the offer. The Great Commission could not be fulfilled, so what had been hidden from man happened. It all began on Damascus Road.

 

[Iconoclast]

Ituttut,
you said;

I see in your thinking it removes completely through faith, saying the Gentile is justified exactly like God's people who are justified by faith. Paul tells us in Hebrews chapter 11 how all before the Cross, and a few years later on Damascus Road, God kept His promise that He would make His Wife Jealous.


Gentiles are justified exactly the same way...Ot Israel was not saved by works of the law...the law was never intended to save


Why couldn't Abel, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, and all the others be justified just like you and me? They DID NOT KNOW THE NAME OF GOD, THE WORD, while they lived. The other strike against them was JESUS HAD NOT YET SHED HIS EVERLASTING SAVING BLOOD. Yet all those that before Jesus came, and shed His Blood, did after all on that last swing to hit a home run. They are being held until that time by believing their Father in heaven. What ever God told these people to believe, they did, and they every one had to do their OWN WORK, for that is what God required of them.

All saints from all time are saved the same way, by the same blood. there is only one way of salvation.....God given faith in the SEED of The Woman...
Everyone is saved exactly the same...Jesus dies for "his people"...The Israel of God....

There are some who choose to be in the Heavenlies with Him, and some who choose to be on the earth when Heaven comes down to earth So God can be (and we in Jesus Christ) with His Bride. This is

Not sure exactly who you believe chooses heaven/earth.......we exist in both realms now.

Being a Berean as I study the Bible, I find the input, and understanding of what God tells me to be of more urgent reading. May I please refer you back to His Word, which can be correctly interpreted when He will bring together, what He has divided, in order for us to Study to make Ourselves Approved in Christ Jesus? I walked the path (about 60 years) of contradictions that you are now on. I decided I had rather be in the Body of Christ, than to be with Israel when they go marching into that Kingdom that is still at hand.

The divisions you are speaking of fragment God's word.....divide it more than God intended.

Then you must believe the gospel the gospel of The Kingdom is at hand was promised to the Gentile, and also the Jew? I don't believe scripture will bear this out. The Gentile can be a proselyte at that time, but never come to God on their own. These heathen accepted to be the servants of God's people, are relegated to be in the Outer Court of the Temple, i.e. until He says differently.

Almost all the parables speak to this;
mt20

them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
15Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

mt21

43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof

mt22

8Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

you said;

Isn't that what I said? That Kingdom still has not come.

The Kingdom has come and is growing...it is not yet complete until the last day.

you said;

I believe every verse you have quoted, but I know WHO is my Sabbath. Weren't the Sabbath Days a Shadow of Christ? John 9:16 tells us "Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them." Did not Jesus do all of the Works, and fulfilled the Law? Did He then REST. Our Works and a keeping of The Law, or any Law never saved anybody. Could anyone really REST from His Work?

8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Then you must believe the gospel the gospel of The Kingdom is at hand was promised to the Gentile, and also the Jew? I don't believe scripture will bear this out. The Gentile can be a proselyte at that time, but never come to God on their own. These heathen accepted to be the servants of God's people, are relegated to be in the Outer Court of the Temple, i.e. until He says differently.

God has said differently in eph 2 and acts 11-15

A case can be made I known for a spiritual Israel for Gentiles today, but I don't believe that is the Mystery.[/QUOTE


The mystery was not the church....the mystery was that gentiles were to grafted in on the same basis as Israel.....not two seperate people..one new man in Christ

 

[ituttut]

Part 1 due to length

Ituttut,

Christian friend Iconoclast you said;

All saints from all time are saved the same way, by the same blood. there is only one way of salvation.....God given faith in the SEED of The Woman...
Everyone is saved exactly the same...Jesus dies for "his people"...The Israel of God....

Then they all new the Word would become flesh? And they also knew His name would be Jesus? I can't bring myself to believe this, as scripture shows otherwise.

He told them only what He wished them to know. No more and no less. Able believed God, just as did Noah. When we believe what He tells us, as we live, then we will find Grace in the Eyes of The Lord.

Did Jacob believe God? He asked the Lord what His name was. Did He tell Jacob?

Did Moses believe God? He asked His name. I Am That I Am came the answer.

Did Samson's dad believe God? Did he ask His name? Was it reveled to Manoah?


And The Word became flesh, as you know. Our Lord God was born to Mary, and she was told by the Angel to name The Word of God, as a man, Jesus.

Not sure exactly who you believe chooses heaven/earth.......we exist in both realms now.

Were the angels predestined to be angels? Did they have free will? Are we predestined, and do we have free will?

The divisions you are speaking of fragment God's word.....divide it more than God intended.

Don't mean to be preaching, just endeavoring to make my position clear. Can, and did God divide, or was it someone else who in the beginning divided the heavens from the earth? Are our days made up of darkness, and light? Are there divisions of the seasons, and months separated from each other? The Bible reveals separating, or dividing from the beginning to the end of time. Did He divide unto himself a people of His own, from all others of the world? I see, and do take the position these things are so.

There are still mysteries untold, but we know God revealed, when He was ready to do so, certain things He had never told any man. And I believe scripture tells us angels are men. So nobody knew what Jesus Christ revealed to Paul, as we can see in Ephesians 3. And I say again, Peter says one should understand what Paul tells us.

This is how I see, acknowledge and proclaim in His Word. He divided out Saul/Paul from all the other Apostles for a purpose. Just as He parted the waters of the Red Sea, so He did with Prophecy. Prophecy stands behind us today, but awaits all others when we in the Body of Christ are taken up. Then all left, and to be born will be in prophecy that had been divided, but brought back together again. Since time began, and until it ends, there must of necessity be divisions.

 

[Iconoclast]

Then they all new the Word would become flesh? And they also knew His name would be Jesus? I can't bring myself to believe this, as scripture shows otherwise.

All of God saints did not have to know or understand all of God's eternal purpose,before God revealed it! they did know about the gospel in SEED form..
pun intended. They lived by a God given faith in the promised seed....
after cain killed abel...eve conceived and declared God hath appointed me

25And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

She was believing in the first gospel promise;

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

He told them only what He wished them to know. No more and no less. Able believed God, just as did Noah. When we believe what He tells us, as we live, then we will find Grace in the Eyes of The Lord.

Did Jacob believe God? He asked the Lord what His name was. Did He tell Jacob?

Regardless of what they wanted to learn or know.....they lived in faith of the promised seed. That revelation is progressively given does not alter that fact.

Did Moses believe God? He asked His name. I Am That I Am came the answer.

Yes, he did.....and Jesus identified himself with that name; and taught us the truth that Abraham believed in Him...

56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

And The Word became flesh, as you know. Our Lord God was born to Mary, and she was told by the Angel to name The Word of God, as a man, Jesus.


Ah yes,Ituttut......and look at how the Luke describes the birth of our lord in gospel terms here;

54He hath helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;

55As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

Were the angels predestined to be angels? Did they have free will? Are we predestined, and do we have free will?
Angels were ordained to be angels.....there are elect angels, and fallen angels. There is no such thing as free-will......that is a philisophical idea,that does not exist in reality.......Angels who never sinned need no redemption, fallen angels have no redemption...Jesus did not die ,or take upon himself angels, or any non-elect persons...he took on Him the seed of Abraham;

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Men do not have free will,as our will is bound by our nature....not here , not in heaven. We are free to serve God as believers....in heaven we are not free or able to sin....we will have no desire to sin...that is part of what makes heaven, heaven.


God in mercy has predestined a multitude of sinners to be conformed to the image of the Son. here is from the 1689 conf.

._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

Don't mean to be preaching, just endeavoring to make my position clear. Can, and did God divide, or was it someone else who in the beginning divided the heavens from the earth? Are our days made up of darkness, and light? Are there divisions of the seasons, and months separated from each other? The Bible reveals separating, or dividing from the beginning to the end of time. Did He divide unto himself a people of His own, from all others of the world? I see, and do take the position these things are so.

yes , I agree God has set up divisions in scripture.....the main division being the Holy Kingdom of God...from the profane kingdom of this world.
My contention is that dispensational teaching goes beyond what God has seperated,and divides or fragments the scripture beyond what God intended.
This is where much of our difference comes out.





There are still mysteries untold, but we know God revealed, when He was ready to do so, certain things He had never told any man. And I believe scripture tells us angels are men.



Mysteries were previously unrevealed truths that are now revealed. Jew and gentile as ONE new man in Christ...is now revealed. There will be no gentile serving jews in a physical kingdom in the future.
There is both growing together in Christ now.

 

[ituttut]

Part 2

Iconoclast says, "Almost all the parables speak to this; mt20, mt21, and mt22."

Yes, and we can see in verse 21 to whom He is speaking. The Rulers of Israel, National Israel would not repent, nor fit to be water baptized. Those filled with the Holy Ghost in those days actually knew whether those of Israel who were commanded to Repent and be Water Baptized should be water baptized. Two of the most powerful sects in the hierarchy of Israel were seen for what they were by John the Baptist (Matthew 3:7)

This is a very good place for one to see that the Holy Spirit had Matthew report what Jesus said, and then in other Gospels, which He divided from Matthew. He divided in order for us to study, study, and study some more, until we learn to bring together what He divided. The work we do, what ever that may be will follow us.

Some find one thing, and some something else. This is evident for you and I see differently. You can see from my signature, I have heavily studied the Epistle to the Galatians, as well as Acts, and all of the Epistles of Paul, ending in Hebrews. But before this I studied more diligently the other parts of the Bible. I consider these, beginning in Acts 9, to be the FIRST WORDS OF Jesus Christ from heaven. Not until we begin our journey through Acts can we find The Body of Christ, or through faith justification for the uncircumcised; neither the Rapture of those that died in the Body of Christ, and then we alive immediately after them.

I find the Kingdom of God is the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? We are all in the Kingdom of God the Father, but are there not Kingdoms, in His Kingdom? Was the earthly Kingdom of David given to His flock?

I believe God preserved for the Body of Christ His Nation of Gentiles (including both Jew and Gentile), we of today. Scripture tells us we are baptized without hands by the Holy Spirit, and He seals us in. This Nation is His Kingdom. This is what I see, but you see the Kingdom that you wish to be in. I don't wish to put words into your mouth, but this is what I see in your post/s. This indicates to me you have made a good choice, for it fits your belief.

you said; The Kingdom has come and is growing...it is not yet complete until the last day.

Are you saying the tribulation is past, or the Kingdom that was at hand still going on these many, many years? Everyone is still dying, Satan is still on the loose, and so the evil remains with us today, while we live.

Scripture tells me Christ Jesus revealed to Paul that those which are in the Body of Christ will be caught up to Him in the air, and those that have died, who chose to be in His Body, will be resurrected suddenly, and quickly, right before He snatches us up to HIM. Then I see the prophecy Kingdom will be allowed to continue.

you said; 8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

I can only assume you believe Paul is talking to you as He addresses the Hebrew, or as you have quoted above the people of god. Paul is talking to the Jew, and their proselytes. This is not directed to any that are in the Body of Christ that are justified through faith alone.

God has said differently in eph 2 and acts 11-15

Acts 11:15 indicates to me, Cornelius is in the Body of Christ, and was justified as is the Gentile, and that is through faith Justification. But we know Cornelius was first a proselyte to the Jewish faith. So doesn't it make sense that he, a Gentile can now also receive the Holy Ghost, just like the Jew did, at that time? He was also water baptized and is in the Body of Christ's Kingdom that He, Jesus, gave to His Apostles.

Peter was sent to Cornelius, and not Paul who tells us in Ephesians 2:5, 5, "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved " Today, I believe we can be with Christ, together with Him. The Grace of God justifies us through faith of Jesus Christ. If we were dead in our sins, then that means we are not proselytes like Cornelius.

The mystery was not the church....the mystery was that gentiles were to grafted in on the same basis as Israel.....not two seperate people..one new man in Christ

The reference you give of One New Man we find in Ephesians 2:15 only proves my point that a division still exists. Does not in that verse inform us, without equivocation that the Law, and the Ordinances that were only given to His Covenant People, those of all Israel, has been abolished? Also scripture tells us those requirements are now dead in this dispensation. Any way you look at this truth means we are to believe what God tells us as we live. I see the Law, the covenant commandments, and their ordinances were nailed to the Cross. Isn't this the way Peter, and the others were justified by faith? Don't we see James, Jesus' half brother, continued in his salvation as a Jew? Isn't it possible today for a Jew, or their proselytes to continue with their Law, and Ordinances if they wish?

James came to believe in the son of His mother, then accepting Jesus as the SON of GOD? The Son of God is the Lamb of God, and Jesus said He came for His sheep, and no one else. James believed this, but realized, sometime after Damascus Road, the Great Commission was not to be preached to Gentile. But it was preached, and some accepted the Great Commission still, and we know Paul also preached this to Israel. We know James did not preach to the Gentile, for he was not appointed to do so. James knew the Gentile was justified differently than the Jew.

How do we know there is still a division of the True Jew of the circumcision fleshly National gospel, and the personal bloodless individual gospel? Romans 3:30, "Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith." This leds me to believe the two justifications still exist. So then I believe in the Body of Christ, all can choose, in our free will, the Kingdom we want to be in.

 

[Iconoclast]

The reference you give of One New Man we find in Ephesians 2:15 only proves my point that a division still exists. Does not in that verse inform us, without equivocation that the Law, and the Ordinances that were only given to His Covenant People, those of all Israel, has been abolished? Also scripture tells us those requirements are now dead in this dispensation. Any

We are not lawless we are under law to God. not to be saved,but because we are saved. He has placed the law in our hearts.

 

[ituttut]

Part 1

ituttut,
Hello brother....hope you have been enjoying your retirement.Glad to see you have not retired from serving the Lord however
What did you retire from?

Missed this one Iconoclast. Not a lot to tell. Just a layman, and a student of the Bible. We all plagiarize, as we are a product of what we have heard, and read. However I also believe the Gospels are progressive allowing for individual revelations are there for us to discover.

Retired from Sales/Marketing. Have not retired from being a Student of His Word, and presenting the gospel of Jesus Christ from heaven as He permits. I am not a linguist, and certainly not expert of the language of Hebrew, Greek, Latin or any other. I know enough for my purposes; however I speaka the English. I believe I could learn German should I put my mind to it, as of German descent, as well as English, Welsh, Scotch. Some think I may have Italian blood, as I do become animated at times.

You have perhaps heard many sermons over the years.....are there a few that stand out in your mind? what text was opened up? Are there any men who you heard who really seemed used of God in a powerful way? If so...when was it?

What I believe started in the Baptist denomination, and then information from the rest of Protestants, as well as Catholic. More insight obtained of Back to the Bible, Through the Bible, The Christian Jew Foundation, and Berean Bible Society. These last four to either deep understanding the Jew, or into grace, or wider scope than defined religions of today.

One thing leads to another. There were some hearings, or readings I completely dismissed on the way. The greatest sermons, truths I have found to be in the Bible. All of the above pointed me to the Bible to confirm; The last I accessed was the Berean Bible Society which study urges one to try not to interpret, but allow the Bible to interpret what God has given us to study. I have found this can be done when one finally comes to realize that God knows all about what comes under the heading of Math. I believe He really knows all about Division, as He shows us, and really great on all the rest also.

I have heard this taught also,when you said this;
Quote:
Peter was not taught the dispensational gospel that was given to Paul. We know Peter did not understand what all the vision encompassed. We know after preaching to these heathen, the Gospel to the uncircumcised, Peter and those others of the apostolic church were amazed. They did not understand for Jesus had already began to reveal to Paul only, the understanding of the Grace of God, that Now did away with Man having any Work to do in order to Please God. Just as God was the first to shed blood for man, so did He do it again, but this time It Was His own everlasting blood.

itut,
I am sure they did not fully understand what Jesus had in mind as he taught them before and after the cross..…..

Yes, God is long suffering, and the Kingdom that was at hand was being shown to them in reality. The Nation of Israel still refusing what God promised His people. I believe God showed to Peter first the Keyes Peter had only applied to the Nation, but now the proselytes could build on the foundation, which Peter was laying on the foundation of Jesus Christ. And I do believe at this particular time Saul was still named Saul. However at this same time Saul was being taught all about the Body of Christ with the commission to spread it all over the world, for as we know all their Laws and Ordinances will no longer good enough. We are now to worship In Spirit, and not by sight, or of the hands of any man. Through the preaching of Paul, we can find the Wisdom Peter tells us Paul has.

or here from lk24:25-28, "hen he said unto them, O fools, and….."
Now that must have been some good study...lol

Ho! Ha! Ha! Does your lol "mean lots of luck", or "laugh out loud"? Did you happen to notice Damascus Road is future, and our Lord Jesus Christ will then reveal what He had hidden from man? Jesus told them all that He could, and no more. Can we possibly follow Jesus Christ to heaven in these bodies? Doesn't He say He only came for HIS sheep? The Heathen is Not His Sheep. He, while on earth really meant what He said. I do believe He knew what His purpose was, at that time.