greening of the church pt3

[ituttut]

Part 2

ituttut said:They did not understand for Jesus had already began to reveal to Paul only, the understanding of the Grace of God,

Iconoclast replied: What verse or verses lead you believe that only Paul understood grace?

I see Peter say this
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

You're evidently depending on strangers to mean Gentiles. Not so. These are of Israel of the dispersion. They were now strangers. Verse 3 tells they are begotten again. Compare I Peter 2:9, with Exodus 19:6. Didn't God foreknow this of His people? How many Gentile Priests did God appoint in the Bible?

next;

Ituttut says: Christ gave to Paul His Gospel to the Gentile…..we are told exactly how He Justified His People, and how He justifies the Gentile.

I believe you are speaking of this section in Galatians 2
7But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter

Yes, Galatians was my reference. Peter had the keys to that promised Kingdom, but Paul was given the Grace gospel into the Body of Christ.

I believe paul was specially gifted to minister to the gentiles ..yes..but here he corrected Peter......because there is only one saving purpose now.
Acts 15 put an exclamation point on this!

No denying Peter was the first of those Apostles based in Jerusalem to show how the Gentile must be justified, as we see in Acts 10. We know Peter was including only those Jerusalem Apostles, and others, for in verse 10 of Acts 15 Peter is convincing them they should not tell a Gentile wishing to be in the Body of Christ they first must be circumcised, water baptized, keep the Sabbath, or other laws applicable only the Jew, and their proselytes.

Should we believe Peter to have been the Apostle to the Gentile also? If so, why did he shake the hand of Paul, and say I will not preach to the Gentile. He said this in the same meeting. Peter was not given the gospel to preach to others the Body of Christ. I really don't know why so many do not really believe what Peter says, or what Paul says.

Here Peter says those Gentiles received the Holy Ghost, just as they had, and their hearts had been cleansed By Faith, and they then received the Holy Ghost, and spoke with tongues. It says not one word they entered into the Body of Christ, and sealed in.

Itut......do you think it is possible that from among the early church, perhaps Paul was the best trained among the jewish christians to be a chosen instument by God? Not so much that the gospel was different, but perhaps some of the jewish christians were against the gentiles who were previously thought to be unclean?

Scripture tells us troublers came from the Apostolic Jewish Jerusalem church preaching the gospel of Moses, they had to be circumcised, and become as the Jew in all their religious rites. This is the reason Paul, and Barnabas went up by revelation to see the Apostles, and tell them to inform the misguided one, to stop lying to the Gentile. We know the troubles are still with us today.

next;

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Per ituttut:Before Damascus Road, after the Covenant began, first one had to be circumcised (including their proselytes), blood sacrifices, the Law of the Ten Commandments they are to live under.

the early jewish christians did not have to live under the ceremonial law after the cross.....if any did they were corrected....that is why Paul addresses the judiaziers., calling that another gospel..another of a different kind..false!

Surely you jest. Acts 21-23 should open your eyes. Doesn't James of the Law and Works want Paul as a Jew to do as does the Jew? Paul a Jew would do what James wanted him to do, but God said no blood sacrifice.

next:
Quote:
Per ituttut: God never asked anyone else to make covenant with Him, or keep the Laws and ordinances they lived under. Was there not a secret shown to us, beginning on Damascus Road?

The covenant was made with the seed singular which is Christ..and us in Him......jew and gentile

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The ceremonial law was never given to save;
21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
The idea of a heavenly people as compared to an earthly people I do not believe is the truth,even though I was first taught that idea in the scofield bible,and from the men at Dallas seminary....h

Notice you would not touch the secret. I can see why, for you could not accept what the man at Dallas Seminary was explaining to you. So I believe I may be saying some of the same things, but you do not believe what I show you in the Bible. That is certainly your right, and you do have Free Will to choose who, and what you believe.

here is why I do not think that is the best view;
Quote:
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Christian friend Iconoclast, here is my view, and it is the view taken by those in the Body of Christ, who will be with Him for all eternity. II Corinthians 5:16, "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more." I believe He will reach down up catch me up to Him, for that is what He revealed to my Apostle. I see most want to follow Jesus as he spoke about a Kingdom that was coming, as they believe they will be saved into that Kingdom.

 

[Iconoclast]

Christian friend Iconoclast, here is my view, and it is the view taken by those in the Body of Christ, who will be with Him for all eternity. II Corinthians 5:16, "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more." I believe He will reach down up catch me up to Him,

Well....ituttut....I am glad we find agreement in this;

11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

15These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

I will respond more later on...am tired now and i did have a few more questions to offer.....thanks for your responses so far,and am glad you still are serving God with zeal!

 

[Iconoclast]

Ituttut,

Notice you would not touch the secret. I can see why, for you could not accept what the man at Dallas Seminary was explaining to you. So I believe I may be saying some of the same things, but you do not believe what I show you in the Bible. That is certainly your right, and you do have Free Will to choose who, and what you believe.

Well....I do know this teaching but I find it discards parts of the bible that I believe are meant to be together....so we are going to differ for sure...

I am going to be in dallas this next week, I start in memphis on monday...but finish my trip in Dallas.....Are you living near Dallas?

you asked this;

How many Gentile Priests did God appoint in the Bible?

1]Melchizedek

2] all believing gentiles In Christ

5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

In Christ all believers are priests and Kings...in the Ot among the theocracy..there were none.

Yes, Galatians was my reference. Peter had the keys to that promised Kingdom, but Paul was given the Grace gospel into the Body of Christ.

I believe they preached the same gospel...not two different gospels;;

I believe the bible teaches all the apostles were for all the church...not that Paul was "my " apostle

Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

 

[ituttut]

Ituttut,

Well....I do know this teaching but I find it discards parts of the bible that I believe are meant to be together....so we are going to differ for sure...

As you say, for sure we do differ on what we believe we see in what God had hidden from all men until…

I am going to be in dallas this next week, I start in memphis on monday...but finish my trip in Dallas.....Are you living near Dallas?

Yes close Dallas; In and out.

My answer of what you asked;

1]Melchizedek

2] all believing gentiles In Christ

1] Satan said he would be like Elyon (Isaiah 14:14). Do you believe God is a Gentile, whom you say Melchizedek is?

2] Only through the loins of Isaac are the Priests of God.

In Christ all believers are priests and Kings...in the Ot among the theocracy..there were none.

This saying is held by many, and is partial truth as we find in the n the book of Revelation. Not all as you may think, but all those of Israel. As I have said before I believe in predestination, and I also believe in free will of a believer as we live in this present evil age. Some choose just as Revelation points out, i.e. those of the Lamb. Jesus as the Lamb tells us specifically whom He came for. The Lamb is for those He says He came for while He lived on this earth. The nation of Israel rejected the Lamb of God. Jesus gave His Apostles a prayer to pray to the Father, and it is not prayed in the name of our Lord Jesus Chris. "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." The OT says God's chosen people; those of Israel will inherit the earth.

God leaves no doubt about who it is that will be the Kings and Priests of God in Revelation 5:9-10, "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10. And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

Some choose to be with Israel on the earth, and some choose to be with Christ in the heavenlies. The above in Revelation confirms what was revealed to Paul. Notice to whom it is that God's people are redeemed, and how it is done. Verse 9 says His People are redeemed to God (and Father) those that are justified BY faith.

I believe they preached the same gospel...not two different gospels;;

So many people do believe such a thing.

I believe the bible teaches all the apostles were for all the church...not that Paul was "my " apostle

I can see that.

Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

I believe Peter, as he spoke to those Apostles, and leaders of the Pentecostal church in Jerusalem, of which Paul had no part. But can you show that Peter was appointed as The Apostle to the Gentile Nations, to the whole world? Doesn't Peter himself tell us GOD MADE ME DO IT brethren? Peter lets all know The deed is done, and I hope you will believe me when I say, "What was I, that I could withstand God?" Peter is pleading with them to not believe he would have ever done such a humiliating, and sinful thing as go under the roof of a Gentile, and even eat with them, at Their table. He is saying I didn't understand, but I simply did this one thing that God told me to do.

Look in Acts 11, verse 1, and poor Peter had no more than got back to Jerusalem than James and the others were ready to Tar and Feather him. Why? He, Peter, nor any other upstanding Jew in Jerusalem, Judah knew they were not to be associated with heathens. They demanded this sinful man explain his crazy act. I wonder what they would have done (had they not listened to his defense) if they found out he had eaten a Pork Chop.

But for the truth we should admit that Peter did shake the hand of Paul, and say he (Peter) would not again preach to the Gentile, the Gospel of Uncircumcised. Also as we see further in Acts, and Galatians, they still had doubts about Peter, for James had completely took over the apostolic church, which did still require Works. This we should not deny for he says such in Acts, and then in his Book to the Twelve Tribes that are scattered. James has no word at all for the heather, other than may become proselytes, and be their servants in the Kingdom that will come.

 

[Iconoclast]

ituttut,

The OT says God's chosen people; those of Israel will inherit the earth.

You view of Israel does not match the biblical view of Israel.....all of the difference flows from you not "seeing" what God declares about who is Israel

[3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
/QUOTE]


Your view does not agree with this...or this:
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.



The church was not the mystery or secret.....the mystery was that Jew and gentile come in as one new man, with one gospel,

4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

we do not choose...God has already chosen....it is fixed and certain.

 

[ituttut]

You view of Israel does not match the biblical view of Israel.....all of the difference flows from you not "seeing" what God declares about who is Israel


3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

T

The above tells us, just as James says to his people that God still saw those of Israel were still alive. In James we see he is of works. We see this dramatically pointed out to us in the book of Acts. Paul wrote the book of Hebrews for whom? Certainly not to the Gentile. Hebrews was written for those of Israel that lived in that generation, and for those that will be alive in the Tribulation period. Today God sees everyone as a Gentile.

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Your view does not agree with this...or this:
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

What you fail to see is that all of this is talking about those from Abraham, and from Jacob. Those that are chosen are justified by faith. The Gentile is justified through fait.

The church was not the mystery or secret.....the mystery was that Jew and gentile come in as one new man, with one gospel,

Are you saying you knew before you read about Damascus Road in the 9th chapter of Acts that Jesus Christ from heaven spoke directly to Saul/Paul, he would be the Apostle to the Gentile, and the Jew?

Was salvation by the Grace of God, Through Faith, without any work by any man known before it was told?

When do we find out about the Rapture? Was this hidden from man?

When do we find out The Body of Christ?

There are certain things we can't find in our Bibles until it is time for it to be written. Who knew anything about how the Gentile is justified, before it was written?

It takes these mysteries of God revealed in order for us to understand the secret. Paul tells us He was given a gospel to preach, and it before it was unknown. His gospel is Jesus Christ crucified and in heaven. We don't know Him on earth, and worship Him spiritually. Yes He is our Lord in heaven.

Messiah was prophesied for God's people, and He did come. Jesus also tells us He only came for His own people, His own sheep, and no one else. But some people just cannot bring themselves to believe what He says. And why? Because they also believe we are after all really ISRAEL.

Peter says we all should understand, and what we are to understand the Gospel of Paul.
The Gospel that Paul preached is that of Jesus Christ, who reveals the Mystery as shown in Romans 16:25-27. "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26. But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 27. To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen."

It is only NOW as Paul speaks that all things are through Jesus Christ. So I'm not saying you are wrong as to the ONE Man, of Jews and Gentiles. But this only happened as we are told, and today we can all believe, and choose which foundation we will build on. Paul said he would not build on another man's foundation, for that other foundation we know Peter was laying down is different than what he (Paul) was laying down. After the Rapture, there is a Kingdom that will come, but that is promised to those before.

Justification BY faith was not a mystery, but through the faith of Jesus Christ was. Hebrews 11 tells us this is so. Was through faith salvation available to them?

we do not choose...God has already chosen....it is fixed and certain

I find scripture tells me the Apostles received their information from Jesus Christ while He was on earth, and they did not understand too much of it. The Holy Spirit revealed things to them. Paul says he did not get his information from the Apostles, but directly from Christ Jesus in heaven. He went up to Jerusalem, and informed them of His Gospel, and they believed him. I do believe the Gospel of Paul, the only heavenly appointed Apostle to the Gentile.

As I understand scripture, until heaven comes down to earth when time as we know it is no more, then will the two parts of the foundation be joined together. So until then the heavenlies is where I choose to be. I don't believe dead, or alive I will bodily be on this earth during the tribulation period.

II Samuel is a good reading as to who Israel is. I believe scripture shows Israel is of this earth, So God chose them so He would have a people of His own on this earth. I do contend that when it is all over, in the fullness of time, all things will be in Him that are in heaven, and on earth (Ephesians 1:10). So what is the big deal? I don't want to be on this earth when God comes to pour out His wrath on those of this earth.